hi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
Also, AGuest,
If God and Jesus are the "Source" of the Scriptures, then logically God and Jesus would NEVER contradict the teachings found in the Scriptures.
If the "voices" that you are hearing are contradicting the Scriptures, then why would you listen to them or trust these "voices"?
Why should anyone believe you?
hi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
AGuest,
The "Source" is the Jesus who is fully God in Nature, not a created angel or other creature.
Also, if you trust in the Scriptures to point you to "the Source" then why do you not trust what Jesus says in the Scriptures -- why do you not trust the parts where He tells His followers to read and listen to the Scriptures?
Or, if you do NOT trust the Scriptures, then why would you try to contact the "Source" of the Scriptures?
hi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
JeremiahJS, I encourage you to study and examine these verses closely:
John 20:28-29 (NIV): Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Titus 2:13 (NIV): while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
Hebrews 1:8 (NIV): But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
2 Peter 1:1 (NIV): Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
Acts 20:28 (NIV): Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Philippians 2:5-6 (NIV): Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Colossians 2:9 (NIV): For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Romans 9:5 (NIV): Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
1 John 5:20 (NIV): We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Revelation 5:8-14 (NIV): And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty- four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
John 5:23 (NIV): that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Act 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
John 14:13-14 (NIV): And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
John 10:29-30 (NIV): My Father ... is greater than all; ... I and the Father are one."
John 8:58 (NIV): I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 1:18 (NIV): No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 1:1-3 (NIV): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Let me know what you think about those verses.
saved by works or by faith?.
what does the bible teach?
and what do jehovah's witnesses teach?
I like that cartoon. Thanks!
come on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.
you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.
jesus taught that his father is god.
Paul from Cleveland, how are you?
You said:
"I don't believe that regardless of what the bible reads. If God is so petty as to destroy someone for not understanding some cryptic, obscure doctrine so as not to understand his true nature, he deserves no worship."
God is not going to destroy people for failing to believe something. He is going to destroy people for their sins. The wages sin pays is death. There is no difference between anyone. Every single human on earth is a sinner. God provided one way to be saved: His Son receiving the punishment for our sins in our place when He died on the cross for us all.
But God has placed a condition on being saved through this sacrifice: We must trust in the One who made the sacrifice for us and repent of our sins (change our minds about our sins and sinful ways).
It is a salvation issue because the condition is that we must trust in the True Jesus who died for us, not a cheap false imitation "Jesus" who is a created angel (or just a "good human teacher") who never died for the sins of anyone.
The Bible says that the only Jesus who will save anyone is the One who is God -- the One who suffered and died in your place.
come on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.
you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.
jesus taught that his father is god.
Understanding all about The Trinity Doctrine is not a salvation issue, but believing in the Deity of Christ (believing that Jesus is God) and honoring Him as God, is a salvation issue, as many Scriptures declare, such as John 8:24, John 5:23-24, Romans 10:9-13.
* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.
(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).
(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).
My Case for the Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit:
Below are the main reasons why I believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person and why I believe He is fully God in Nature.
The Holy Spirit is a Person, NOT an impersonal active force like electricity:
John 14:16-18 (NASB): "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit was another Helper (or Advocate) who was coming after Him. The Greek word for "another" in John 14:16-18 means "another of the same." So Jesus was saying that the Spirit would be another Helper just like Himself, in other words, the Spirit would be (1) a Person and (2) fully God in Nature.
And notice, the Spirit cannot be Jesus because the Spirit is "another" Person besides Jesus, and the Spirit cannot be The Father because The Father is sending the Spirit. Therefore, the only conclusion I arrive at from these verses is that the Holy Spirit is a THIRD Person who is fully God in Nature.
John 14:26 (NASB): "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
The Spirit teaches people.
John 15:26 (NASB): "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, [that is] the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
The Spirit is a different Person than The Father, however, the Spirit does "proceed" from The Father. Notice also that the Spirit testifies about Jesus, who is a different Person. Both Jesus and The Father send the Spirit.
John 16:7-15 (NASB):"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; [...] when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose [it] to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose [it] to you.
Jesus repeatedly referred to the Spirit as "He" and "Him," and said that He would do things that only a person can do, such as teach, speak, have an initiative, hear things, and take things from Jesus.
Romans 8:26-27 (NASB): In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for [us] with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to [the will of] God.
Here, the Spirit is described as having a mind, and praying to God for us, and interceding and groaning for us to God the Father. The Spirit is obviously a Person. An impersonal active force cannot have a mind and pray and intercede for us.
Acts 8:29 (NASB): Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
Here, the Spirit is speaking to Philip, giving him a command. How can an impersonal force speak and give a command?
Acts 10:19-20 (NASB): While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you. "But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself."
Now the Spirit speaks to Peter and tells him that He Himself has sent these men to find Peter. This Spirit does not sound at all like an impersonal active force like electricity.
Acts 13:2 (NASB): While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
The Spirit chooses and calls the people that He desires to serve Him in special ways. The Spirit set apart for Himself Paul and Barnabas for special ministry work. How could the Spirit do this if He is not a person?
Acts 15:28 (NASB): "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials
Things can seem good or bad to the Spirit. The Spirit cannot be an impersonal force because the Spirit has feelings and desires and thoughts.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11 (NASB): Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all [persons.] But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another [various] kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Here the Spirit and the Lord [Jesus] and God the Father are declared to be working together in unity but are different Persons. It also says clearly that the Spirit has His own will and He distributes His gifts to whomever He chooses according to His own will. Definitely not an impersonal active force.
Ephesians 4:30 (NASB): Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Holy Spirit can be grieved (or feel hurt, feel pain). This is something only a person can do.
In the Scriptures, The Holy Spirit is always placed on an equal level with God the Father and Jesus Christ, but is always shown to be a different Person:
Matthew 28:19 (NASB): "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Notice that the "Name" of all Three is singular. They all have One Name (whether that "Name" is an actual name or is referring to their authority or reputation is debatable. It is possibly referring to both.)
And if the Spirit is simply God's active force, why would Jesus elevate it to the same level as His Father and Himself, and also, why would we be baptized in the Name of an impersonal force like electricity?
Matthew 12:31 (NASB): "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Luke 12:10 (NASB): "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
Jesus shows that blasphemy against Him can be forgiven, but not blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. How can you blaspheme the Spirit unless the Spirit is a Person? And why is blaspheming Him more serious than blaspheming Jesus?
Acts 5:3-4 (NASB): But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back [some] of the price of the land? [...] You have not lied to men but to God."
How can you lie to an impersonal force like electricity? Also, notice how Peter says "You have lied to the Holy Spirit... you have lied to God." Peter equates the Holy Spirit with God.
Romans 15:30 (NASB): Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me,
Here Paul mentions the Three Persons together on an equal level, and also shows that The Holy Spirit has love, which is something only a person can have.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB): Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, [there] is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
This is a very clear, explicit statement that the Holy Spirit is the Lord. Therefore, the Spirit is NOT an impersonal active force like electricity. Instead, Paul said that The Spirit is THE LORD! (Or, in the New World Translation, it says the Spirit is JEHOVAH)
2 Corinthians 13:14 (NASB): The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Once again, Paul places the Three Persons on an equal level, and this time he says that the Spirit has fellowship with us Christians. An impersonal force cannot have fellowship with human beings, can it?
Ephesians 4:4-6 (NASB): [There is] one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Here Paul says that there is One Spirit, One Lord [Jesus], and One God [The Father]. Thus there are Three different Persons who are united as we worship and serve Them.
1 Peter 1:2 (NASB): according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
And finally, Peter also shows here that The Three Persons are different, but work together in unity as we serve and worship Them.
Let me ask a couple final questions here:
Why do you believe that God the Father is a Person instead of an impersonal force? What would happen if you applied the same exact standards and tests to the Holy Spirit to see if the Spirit is a Person?
Why do you believe that Satan the Devil is a person instead of an impersonal force? What would happen if you applied the same exact standards and tests to the Holy Spirit to see if the Spirit is a Person?
saved by works or by faith?.
what does the bible teach?
and what do jehovah's witnesses teach?
Saved by WORKS or by FAITH?
What does the Bible teach? And what do Jehovah's Witnesses teach? What do you believe about this?
Let's have a really good discussion and debate about this important Bible topic.
Here is my position:
* We are saved only by God's grace (undeserved kindness) through faith in Christ as Lord, God, and Savior (because of His sacrifice for our sins). Works play absolutely no role in us obtaining the free gift of salvation and eternal life. However, after we have been saved and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, then the Spirit working in and through us and will produce good fruit and good works in our lives.
* Works are the RESULT of salvation, not the CAUSE of salvation.
* The Epistle to the Galatians also teaches that we cannot REMAIN or KEEP salvation by our own good works or human effort. It is all done by God's Spirit.
Very important verses to examine here are Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans chapters 3 and 4, Romans 11:6, and James chapter 2.
hi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
AGuest said:
"God indeed forbids the “worship”… in the manner of “rendering SACRED service”… to any other. "
AGuest, please look up and find out what the Hebrew/Aramaic word used for "Serving" or "worshiping" the Son of Man is, in Daniel 7:13-15.
If I remember correctly, it is the word that means "Sacred Service" which is exclusively given to Yahweh in the rest of the Hebrew Scriptures. Correct me if I am wrong.
come on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.
you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.
jesus taught that his father is god.
Come on everyone, let us reason on the Trinity Doctrine using the Bible!
You know there has to be at least 3 big long Trinity threads on here per month... so I figured I'd go ahead and start one for November.
The Bible says that there is only one true God who is God by Nature, the only God who deserves our worship and prayer. Jesus taught that His Father is God. However, on the other hand, the Scriptures repeatedly say (both explicitly and implicitly) that Jesus Christ is God by Nature (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:6; 2 Peter 1:1; Titus 2:13; John 10:30) as well as describing the Holy Spirit as having all of the same qualities and attributes as The Father and The Son.
I look forward to having a serious debate about the Trinity doctrine, based on the Holy Scriptures.
(Please, try to keep the name-calling or ad hominem personal attacks to a minimum if at all possible)
