Posts by UnDisfellowshipped

43

For Atheists & Strong Agnostics: (Believers can counter-post also!)

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

for atheists and strong agnostics (those who believe that we cannot know about god if he exists):.

i am posting this thread because i think it greatly help myself (and other christian believers) to better understand your beliefs and your viewpoints, if you posted a short (or long) summary of what the reasons and basis are for your not believing that there is a god, or for believing that we cannot know god if he exists.. you can include arguments against god, against the bible, against the christian interpretations of the bible, etc.. you can include scientific evidence that you believe contradicts the bible, or contradicts the existence of a god/creator/designer.. christians believers: you are welcome to post counter-arguments, or summaries for why you believe in god/creator/designer or why you believe in the bible or the christian interpretations of the bible.. i also thought it might be good to link to another lively thread we had on this website a while back: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175688/1/god-morals-and-atheists.

when you include your reasons for why you don't believe in god or the bible, or why you do believe in god or the bible, please include at least a little bit of the evidence (or link to the evidence) that backs up your statement.. for example, it doesn't do much good to claim "evolution is false" and just leave it at that, or on the other hand, to say "the bible is full of scientific errors" and just leave it at that.. here are two threads i posted where i explained the reasons why i personally believe in god and the bible:.

UnDisfellowshipped

Darth Frosty,

Please re-read my post at the top of this thread. I was not at all trying to lump all atheists together as some sort of a "group". I am fully aware that each atheist may have his own beliefs or viewpoints that are very much different from another atheist.

The same thing goes for Christians. There is no way to lump all Christians together as "one group" due to the many many differences in their beliefs.

However, the one thing that is common to all atheists (by definition of the word) is that they do not believe that a God/Creator/Designer exists.

And the one thing that is common to all Christians (by definition of the word) is that they believe in Jesus.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

In the Shema, (Deut. 6:4), the word for "God" [Elohim] is plural, and the word for "One" is the same Hebrew word used for a husband and wife becoming "One" flesh.

125

The Case for God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

the case for god:.

the "big bang" argument for god:.

the argument for god from evil:.

UnDisfellowshipped

Just an FYI, I actually read John Loftus' book, "Why I am an Atheist" and I enjoyed it. I thought it was very thought-provoking. One of these days I will post a review/critique of it here.

43

For Atheists & Strong Agnostics: (Believers can counter-post also!)

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

for atheists and strong agnostics (those who believe that we cannot know about god if he exists):.

i am posting this thread because i think it greatly help myself (and other christian believers) to better understand your beliefs and your viewpoints, if you posted a short (or long) summary of what the reasons and basis are for your not believing that there is a god, or for believing that we cannot know god if he exists.. you can include arguments against god, against the bible, against the christian interpretations of the bible, etc.. you can include scientific evidence that you believe contradicts the bible, or contradicts the existence of a god/creator/designer.. christians believers: you are welcome to post counter-arguments, or summaries for why you believe in god/creator/designer or why you believe in the bible or the christian interpretations of the bible.. i also thought it might be good to link to another lively thread we had on this website a while back: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175688/1/god-morals-and-atheists.

when you include your reasons for why you don't believe in god or the bible, or why you do believe in god or the bible, please include at least a little bit of the evidence (or link to the evidence) that backs up your statement.. for example, it doesn't do much good to claim "evolution is false" and just leave it at that, or on the other hand, to say "the bible is full of scientific errors" and just leave it at that.. here are two threads i posted where i explained the reasons why i personally believe in god and the bible:.

UnDisfellowshipped

For Atheists and Strong Agnostics (Those who believe that we cannot know about God if He exists):

I am posting this thread because I think it greatly help myself (and other Christian believers) to better understand your beliefs and your viewpoints, if you posted a short (or long) summary of what the reasons and basis are for your not believing that there is a God, or for believing that we cannot know God if He exists.

You can include arguments against God, against the Bible, against the Christian interpretations of the Bible, etc.

You can include scientific evidence that you believe contradicts the Bible, or contradicts the existence of a God/Creator/Designer.

Christians believers: You are welcome to post counter-arguments, or summaries for why you believe in God/Creator/Designer or why you believe in the Bible or the Christian interpretations of the Bible.

I also thought it might be good to link to another lively thread we had on this website a while back: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175688/1/God-Morals-and-Atheists

When you include your reasons for why you don't believe in God or the Bible, or why you do believe in God or the Bible, please include at least a little bit of the evidence (or link to the evidence) that backs up your statement.

For example, it doesn't do much good to claim "Evolution is false" and just leave it at that, or on the other hand, to say "the Bible is full of scientific errors" and just leave it at that.

Here are two threads I posted where I explained the reasons why I personally believe in God and the Bible:

"My Case for God": http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175401/1/The-Case-for-God

"My Testimony": http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/48546/1/My-Testimony

All right! Let the fun begin!

41

Why so defensive? (CHRISTIANS ONLY)

by besty in

jw
friends

the wife and kids and i were round for dinner last night at some good friends of ours - very informal and relaxed.

we have been there many times and its home from home.. they have 2 boys same as us, and they also had another friend (jane) over with her 3 boys - as both dad;s from each parent couple were out of town it was me and sam and the 2 mums + 7 boys under 7 to take care of.

cue another glass of wine please.. eating outside in the front yard, kids playing on the walk street, sunset in the background - you get the idea.. so it turns out jane (who is a very confident, outgoing, successful businesswoman, and attorney) is from texas, and very proud of that - rightly so - but lives in la.

UnDisfellowshipped

Besty,

It is sad to see so many Christians refuse to even look at the scientific evidence.

In addition, she shot herself in the foot without even realizing it by denying the Big Bang.

The Big Bang is one of the biggest things that "more scientifically-enlightened" modern Christians are using to try to show that there WAS A GOD that caused the Big Bang to happen. ("If there was a beginning, there had to be something that caused the beginning")

I am a Christian dedicated to Jesus, my God and Savior, and I always try to keep an open mind and examine all the evidences available.

Reading books from Francis Collins (who believes that God set evolution in motion), Norman Geisler (who definitely believes in the Big Bang), Victor Reppert, and of course, C.S. Lewis, has changed me from being a narrow-minded Christian (like I was 7 or 8 years ago) to an open minded one.

18

Watchtower says: Jesus is a FALLEN ANGEL

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

the watchtower society teaches that jesus is a fallen angel!.

back in the days of charles taze russell, the watchtower society correctly taught that abaddon/apollyon from revelation chapter 9 was satan or a demon (because the bible describes him as a fallen angel of the abyss who is in control of all of the demon/locusts):.

the finished mystery (1917):.

UnDisfellowshipped

The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus is a FALLEN ANGEL!

Back in the days of Charles Taze Russell, the Watchtower Society correctly taught that Abaddon/Apollyon from Revelation chapter 9 was Satan or a demon (because the Bible describes him as a fallen angel of the Abyss who is in control of all of the demon/locusts):

“The Finished Mystery” (1917):

"[And] they [had a] HAVE THEIR king [over them]. — The same king as exercises general rulership over all the ecclesiastical affairs of this present evil world. [Which is] the angel of the [bottomless pit] ABYSS. — "The prince of the power of the air." — Eph. 2:2. Whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon. — And he is "a bad one," sure enough. — 2 Cor. 4:4. But in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. — That is, Destroyer. But in plain English his name is Satan, the Devil. As a means for preventing people from seeing the Truth, Methodism has been as efficient as any of the five systems previously described, or any that follow. All have been sadly misled and deceived by our great and wily Adversary; "Taken captive by him at his will." — 2 Tim. 2:26."

________________________

However, in modern times (starting at least in the 1950's), Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the Fallen Angel of the Abyss who controls the army of demon/locusts is JESUS CHRIST, and that the demon/locusts ARE JEHOVAH'S ANOINTED ONES:

The Watchtower, May 1st, 1992, Page 11:

10 This is a campaign extraordinaire, one that will be memorialized for all time. Wave upon wave of insects, most prominently locusts, devastate the land. What does this mean? Revelation 9:1-12 also speaks of a plague of locusts, sent forth by Jehovah under “a king, the angel of the abyss,” who is none other than Christ Jesus. His names Abaddon (Hebrew) and Apollyon (Greek) mean “Destruction” and “Destroyer.” These locusts picture the anointed remnant of Christians who, now in the Lord’s day, go forth to devastate Christendom’s pastures by completely exposing false religion and proclaiming Jehovah’s vengeance upon it.

___________________________

"Revelation--Its Grand Climax At Hand!" Book (1988), Page 148:

Rather than announce the incoming Kingdom of God, Christendom’s clergy have chosen to remain with Satan’s world. They want no part with the locust band and their King, concerning whom John now observes: “They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is Abaddon [meaning “Destruction”], but in Greek he has the name Apollyon [meaning “Destroyer”].” (Revelation 9:11) As “angel of the abyss” and “Destroyer,” Jesus had truly released a plaguing woe on Christendom. But more is to follow!

Page 200:

This is supported by the use of Hebrew names in other visions; Jesus is given the Hebrew name “Abaddon” (meaning “Destruction”) and executes judgment at the place “called in Hebrew Har–Magedon.”—Revelation 9:11; 16:16.

___________________________

The Watchtower, December 1st, 1969, Page 719:

With a loud trumpet peal the fifth angel announced the loosing of the abyssed “witnesses” and their work that followed. Was this to be a “woe” to “those dwelling on the earth”? With prophetic vision the apostle John watched to see. Look! A “star” had fallen, not into the sea or into the fresh waters, but to the earth. But its fall was not disastrous to it. Rather, this “star” comes as a Freedom-giver, a Liberator of others, for “the key of the pit of the abyss was given him.” He is also a King, for he is “the angel of the abyss” and is the King of those whom he releases from the abyss; in harmony with which fact those whom he releases wear what, to John, “seemed to be crowns like gold.” This symbolic “star” also has a name for this occasion. In Greek its name is Apollyon, which means Destroyer. In Hebrew it is Abaddon, which means Destruction. All these features about this symbolic “star” reveal him to be the glorified Jesus Christ.

______________________________

The Watchtower, December 1st, 1961, Page 719:

The symbolic locusts must follow their King, Jesus Christ. John says of them: “They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is Abad´don, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” The resurrected heavenly Jesus Christ is the “angel of the abyss,” for he holds the “keys of death and of Ha´des.”

_______________________________

The Watchtower, March 1st 1951, Page 149:

These “locusts” are the army of Jehovah’s witnesses, and as to their effect upon Christendom’s “rich man” class Revelation 9:5-7, 10, 11 says: “It was granted the locusts, not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. And the likenesses of the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle, . . . Also they have tails and stings like scorpions; and in their tails is their authority to hurt the men five months. They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is A·bad´don [Destruction], but in Greek he has the name A·pol´lyon [Destroyer].” (NW) Not surprising that the effort is made throughout Christendom to destroy Jehovah’s witnesses.

_________________________________

This is one of the flip-flops and crazy interpretations of the Bible that really got me thinking and doubting.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

For djeggnog's benefit, and for the benefit of anyone else who would like this information, I am going back to my original list of things I was attempting to demonstrate using the New World Translation Reference Bible.

After each point below, I have included the NWT Scripture references which djeggnog or anyone else can look up in their own Bible:

* There is only One True God by Nature. (Isaiah 46:9; Isaiah 45:5; Isaiah 44:6-8; Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 45:21-23; Deuteronomy 32:39; Deuteronomy 4:35,39; Joshua 22:22; Psalm 50:1; 1 Kings 8:60; Galatians 4:8-9; Romans 1:20,25; Isaiah 42:8; Isaiah 48:11)

* There are NOT three different Gods. (James 2:19; Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:28-32; Matthew 4:10; Exodus 20:3-5; Deuteronomy 4:15-19; Deuteronomy 11:16-17; Deuteronomy 17:2-7; Deuteronomy 30:17-18)

* There are Three Distinct Persons who share equally the Nature of God. ([JESUS:] John 1:1-3; John 1:18; John 10:30; John 20:28-29; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Philippians 2:6; John 17:5; John 5:23; Hebrews 1:6; [HOLY SPIRIT:] John 16:13-16; 2 Corinthians 3:3-18; Acts 13:1-4; Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11)

* However, each Person of the Trinity does have His own "role" or "function." The Son willingly obeys the Father. The Spirit willingly obeys the Father and the Son. (This is known as "Functional Subordinationism") (Psalm 110:1-4; 1 Corinthians 11:3; John 14:28; John 15:20; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; John 20:17; Revelation 3:12; John 16:13-16)

* Each of the Three Persons is called "Jehovah" (or "Yahweh") and "God" in the Bible. ([JESUS:] Hebrews 1:10; Romans 10:12-13; 1 Peter 2:3; Philippians 2:9-11; [HOLY SPIRIT:] 2 Corinthians 3:3-18)

31

What was it that first got you thinking that the Society was WRONG in how they INTERPRET the BIBLE?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

what was it that first got you thinking that the society was wrong in how they interpret the bible?.

for me personally, it was the way they always downgrade jesus to be an angel and are promoting the governing body in his place.. also when the society taught that jesus was abaddon/apollyon the fallen angel in revelation..

UnDisfellowshipped

Terry,

But there are established ways and methods of exegesis (recognized by scholars, experts) not only of interpreting the original Bible writer's meaning, but also of interpreting other ancient documents/scrolls/books/writings, if I am not mistaken?

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

Just so I can further examine djeggnog's beliefs (even if he no longer wishes to participate), I am going to attempt to summarize his beliefs about Jesus here (taken from all of his posts here in this thread):

This is what I understand djeggnog to be teaching about Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit:

1:) There is only One Person who is Jehovah, and that Person is the Father of Jesus.

2:) There was a time when only Jehovah existed alone, without His Son.

3:) Jehovah's first creation was His Only-Begotten Son, His Firstborn, the Word, who was Michael the Archangel.

4:) When John 1:1-3 says that The Word was "a god" in the beginning, before one thing ever came into existence, what John really meant was that The Word was a godlike angel, not that He was a real god. So, since The Word was not a real god yet, it did not contradict Scriptures such as Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 44:4-8.

5:) Michael shared the same "divine" spirit nature that God and all of the angels have.

6:) But, at this point (In the beginning, John 1:1), only Jehovah has the "Divine Quality" and Immortality.

7:) When Jehovah declared at Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 44:4-8, 44:24 that He alone is the only God, and there are no other gods in existence, what Jehovah really meant was that there were no other immortal gods in existence.

8:) The defining characteristic of whether or not someone is a "Real God" is if that person has immortality.

9:) What Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13-14 really meant was that Jesus was one of the angels (even though the plain reading of those texts says Jesus is NOT an angel)

10:) While Jesus was on earth, He was 100% a human being, and had NONE of the Divine Nature or Divine Quality in Him.

11:) Upon Jesus' resurrection, He was given a new immortal spirit body and He then became a 2nd Immortal God on His own right, Jesus became a 2nd Real God now.

12:) Christians now serve and follow TWO Real Gods (even though the New Testament teaches that Christians serve and follow only ONE Real God).

13:) The 144,000 will eventually also become Real Gods when they are resurrected and receive immortality.

14:) Whenever people give "worship" or "obeisance" to Jesus, it has to be a lesser, lower form than that which is given to Jehovah. (No explanation for WHY this has to be was given by djeggnog).

15:) However, Jehovah has a different standard of Exclusive Devotion for His angels, and He allows them to render full worship to Jesus. (even though Jesus and the entire Bible declares that angels worship Jehovah, and that Jehovah ALONE should receive worship)

16:) What Revelation 5:13-14 and John 5:23 really meant was that you should only honor Jesus to a lesser degree than you honor Jehovah.

17:) The Holy Spirit is Jehovah's impersonal active force, and any time that the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit as a Person, what it really means is that the Spirit is an impersonal active force that is being personified in a figure of speech.

If I have misrepresented any of djeggnog's beliefs, please let me know.

29

How does GOVERNING BODY receive "NEW LIGHT"?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

just how does the governing body of jehovah's witnesses receive their "insight" or "understanding" of the bible, in order to publish this "spiritual food at the proper time" in their watchtower and awake magazines and all their books?.

let's find out -- from their own publications -- exactly how this happens:.

"spirits of the dead" brochure (1991), page 18:.

UnDisfellowshipped

Wobble, thank you! I forgot to add the Revelation Climax Book quote! Here it is:

"Revelation -- Its Grand Climax At Hand!" Book (1988), Page 125:

Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John. This suggests that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. For their part, those of the John class on earth got to learn the identity of the great crowd by closely observing what Jehovah was performing in their midst. They were quick to appreciate the dazzling flash of divine light that emblazoned the theocratic firmament in 1935, at Jehovah’s due time.

The same teaching is also found in the new updated Revelation book, and it is also found in a new 2008 or 2009 Watchtower (I don't remember which issue, Blondie knows probably)

So, yes, the Watchtower Society teaches that the Faithful & Discreet Slave Class receives "dazzling flashes of divine light" from the Anointed Ones who have DIED.