For Atheists & Strong Agnostics: (Believers can counter-post also!)

by UnDisfellowshipped 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    For Atheists and Strong Agnostics (Those who believe that we cannot know about God if He exists):

    I am posting this thread because I think it greatly help myself (and other Christian believers) to better understand your beliefs and your viewpoints, if you posted a short (or long) summary of what the reasons and basis are for your not believing that there is a God, or for believing that we cannot know God if He exists.

    You can include arguments against God, against the Bible, against the Christian interpretations of the Bible, etc.

    You can include scientific evidence that you believe contradicts the Bible, or contradicts the existence of a God/Creator/Designer.

    Christians believers: You are welcome to post counter-arguments, or summaries for why you believe in God/Creator/Designer or why you believe in the Bible or the Christian interpretations of the Bible.

    I also thought it might be good to link to another lively thread we had on this website a while back: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175688/1/God-Morals-and-Atheists

    When you include your reasons for why you don't believe in God or the Bible, or why you do believe in God or the Bible, please include at least a little bit of the evidence (or link to the evidence) that backs up your statement.

    For example, it doesn't do much good to claim "Evolution is false" and just leave it at that, or on the other hand, to say "the Bible is full of scientific errors" and just leave it at that.

    Here are two threads I posted where I explained the reasons why I personally believe in God and the Bible:

    "My Case for God": http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175401/1/The-Case-for-God

    "My Testimony": http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/48546/1/My-Testimony

    All right! Let the fun begin!

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Below is the conclusion of an essay written by Robert G. Ingersoll, written in 1896, entitled, "Why I Am an Agnostic". I cannot improve upon it, so I'll just quote it. For me personally, I haven't personally experienced anything in my 35 short years of life that even suggests that invisible persons are real. I've never been happier than I am right now. The freedom of mind I currently enjoy is beyond description.

    Robert G. Ingersoll:

    . . .

    When I became convinced that the Universe is natural -- that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world -- not even in infinite space. I was free -- free to think, to express my thoughts -- free to live to my own ideal -- free to live for myself and those I loved -- free to use all my faculties, all my senses -- free to spread imagination's wings -- free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope -- free to judge and determine for myself -- free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the "inspired" books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of the past -- free from popes and priests -- free from all the "called" and "set apart" -- free from sanctified mistakes and holy lies -- free from the fear of eternal pain -- free from the winged monsters of the night -- free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free. There were no prohibited places in all the realms of thought -- no air, no space, where fancy could not spread her painted wings -- no chains for my limbs -- no lashes for my back -- no fires for my flesh -- no master's frown or threat -- no following another's steps -- no need to bow, or cringe, or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously, faced all worlds.

    And then my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heroes, the thinkers who gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain -- for the freedom of labor and thought -- to those who fell on the fierce fields of war, to those who died in dungeons bound with chains -- to those who proudly mounted scaffold's stairs -- to those whose bones were crushed, whose flesh was scarred and torn -- to those by fire consumed -- to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land, whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then I vowed to grasp the torch that they had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer darkness still.

    Let us be true to ourselves -- true to the facts we know, and let us, above all things, preserve the veracity of our souls.

    If there be gods we cannot help them, but we can assist our fellow-men. We cannot love the inconceivable, but we can love wife and child and friend.

    We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know. We can tell the truth, and we can enjoy the blessed freedom that the brave have won. We can destroy the monsters of superstition, the hissing snakes of ignorance and fear. We can drive from our minds the frightful things that tear and wound with beak and fang. We can civilize our fellow-men. We can fill our lives with generous deeds, with loving words, with art and song, and all the ecstasies of love. We can flood our years with sunshine -- with the divine climate of kindness, and we can drain to the last drop the golden cup of joy.

    http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ingag.htm

  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    Forgive the tone:

    Atheism is not a gat dang belief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Quit trying to group those who choose not to believe in a devine being into some sort of bizaro religion. I simply do not believe in god in any of the mainstream religious manifestations period .

    I (nor do I know of any atheist) do not go out trying to recruit people to my belief. I have a sense of morals and right and wrong that is natural to all people.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I finally finally finally investigated the WTS and knew that I needed to investigate the book that was used and abused by such religions. I found that the Bible was not so harmonious as WTS reported, even the gospels couldn't be harmonized as easily as THE GREATEST MAN WHO EVER LIVED made it appear to be possible. I learned that just as assuredly WTS tells us that archaeology doesn't support evolution, archaeology does an excellent job of determining that the exodus never happened. (I also learned better about archeaology that it does support/virtually prove as an absolute beyond a reasonable doubt that evolution happened.) I learned that there was not a huge 12-tribe kingdom under David, but just a small kingdom made up of what would be called the 2-tribes. At the same time, I learned that Paul's Christ was really entirely mythical- no specific time reference or actual stories from people about any of the specifics in some of the gospels. I learned how the God of the OT was angry and bloodthirsty and okay with raping and pillaging.

    I learned how the canon of the NT was decided upon by men and I was fascinated by the books that didn't make the cut. They showed me a Christianity that was really not much different than pagan religions, but it was morphed into what it was later.

    I know that some will say they "know" otherwise. I am not about insisting that believers believe something different. The Bible was shown to be totally not God's word to me. I only go up against over-the-top believers on JWN because this is such a place for such debate and radical believers should not be upset by such debate. I love that we are now free to engage in such debate. I am not really interested in trying to "prove" to you with some exhaustive list how the Bible and belief in any God of the Christians is false. I believe each person must make their own journey of discovery.

    I am also confident that if Christianity were really really the way, God and Christ would understand my feelings and not hold my current beliefs against me.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Darth Frosty,

    Please re-read my post at the top of this thread. I was not at all trying to lump all atheists together as some sort of a "group". I am fully aware that each atheist may have his own beliefs or viewpoints that are very much different from another atheist.

    The same thing goes for Christians. There is no way to lump all Christians together as "one group" due to the many many differences in their beliefs.

    However, the one thing that is common to all atheists (by definition of the word) is that they do not believe that a God/Creator/Designer exists.

    And the one thing that is common to all Christians (by definition of the word) is that they believe in Jesus.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    This would also be a GREAT THREAD for everyone to post all of the contradictions they see in the Bible!

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Thank you LeavingWT and OntheWayOut!

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    Imagine if you are walking down the street, and some of the people around you are stepping aside, giving a wide berth to a certain spot. Others are just walking right through it. Believers see something there, we don't. We walk on, we live life. Simple. It's not a belief. It just is. In my opinion, the onus is on believers.

  • TD
    TD

    Undisfellowshipped:

    There's a part of me that very much wants to believe in the existence of "The Great All Father who cares for us here below" (In the words of James Russell Lowell) but I honestly don't see a whole lot of evidence for it.

    Some of the major writings that form the "Bible" have been redacted from earlier sources, (And the more you study the source languages and the literary milieu from which the various writings sprang, the more apparent this becomes) it contradicts scientific fact at some very basic levels (Anyone with an education in any biological science can have a field day with the flood story (Botany is my forte)) it does not appear to be internally consistent (The Easter test is an interesting exercise) and it does not express ideas that most Christians today attach salvific significance to in unambiguous terms (John 1:1?)

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Thank you TD!

    I really do appreciate all the comments so far, especially from TD, LeavingWT, and OnTheWayOut.

    I really do want to "expand my horizon," and examine all kinds of different viewpoints regarding belief in God or non-belief in God.

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