* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.
(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).
(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).
AllElseFails,
Sorry it took so long to reply. My job has been exhausting me the last couple months, along with my new relationship (not complaining about that though lol).
I will begin to post on here again starting this weekend, and I look forward to reviving our discussion we were having about the Deity of Christ and the The Holy Spirit.
no one comes to the father except through me.
if you had known me, you would have known my father also.
(see hebrews 1:10; colossians 1:16-17; john 1:3).
Wow, I can't believe I never got any posts on a Trinity/Deity thread??? Where's Reniaa when you need her?
* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.
(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).
(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).
AllElseFails,
I apologize -- I am very sorry it's taken me this long to respond to your last post...... Thank you for your patience. (I met a Christian woman that I'm falling in love with during the last month, and that has taken away a little bit more of my free time .... She's just not sure yet whether she is in love with me....don't want to rush things you know....) Okay, back to the topic at hand:
You said:
"I agree to the point that John 16:14 AND 15 point strongly to the duality of Father and Son, however it still does not say "given everything he received". John 16:14-15 (NASB): "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; [all things the father have belong to Jesus] therefore I said that He takes of Mine [not everything, not the name, not specified at all] and will disclose it to you." It does NOT say HE (spirit) takes everything that is mine, it says He takes of (or from) what is mine."
You are correct that the NASB (usually the most literal translation) at John 16:14-15 does not specifically say that The Holy Spirit receives all things from The Son that The Son received from The Father, it simply says that The Spirit receives things from among the things that The Son received from The Father.
I was reading from the ESV and the NET Bible, which read as the following:
John 16:14-15 (NET Bible) He will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; that is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you.
John 16:14-15 (ESV): He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
I will do more research later to find out which rendering is more correct.
If the NASB is correct, then you're right that this passage cannot be used to show that The Holy Spirit has received the Name or authority of The Father and The Son. (But Matthew 28 does say that The Father, Son, and Spirit all have a singular Name or authority).
I will post more soon....
i agree with jehovah's witnesses!.
(i bet reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!).
to jehovah's witnesses: i commend your zeal for god, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the bible, your goals of drawing close to jehovah, and following and obeying christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the bible.
Yes, we cannot get or keep life by doing works or following God's morals or laws.
I was just agreeing with JW's that it is a good thing in God's eyes to try to follow the His moral teachings which is what the entire New Testament teaches.
I do not agree at all with the Witnesses' teaching (at least they've taught this in the past) that you must keep doing good works and keep following God's morals to remain saved.
I apologize if there was a misunderstanding.
I will post the things I disagree with the JW's on soon....
i agree with jehovah's witnesses!.
(i bet reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!).
to jehovah's witnesses: i commend your zeal for god, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the bible, your goals of drawing close to jehovah, and following and obeying christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the bible.
Deputy Dog,
I base all my beliefs on what the Bible teaches only. I think there may have been a misunderstanding here.
When I say Christians should "live by" Christ's moral standards, I do NOT mean that we "get life by" following those morals, I simply mean that God desires us to try to follow them as closely as we can.
I am going to leave you with an important passage of Scripture that I urge you to read over:
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 (NLT): Finally, dear brothers and sisters, we urge you in the name of the Lord Jesus to live in a way that pleases God, as we have taught you. You live this way already, and we encourage you to do so even more. For you remember what we taught you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. God's will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin. Then each of you will control his own body and live in holiness and honor—not in lustful passion like the pagans who do not know God and his ways. Never harm or cheat a Christian brother in this matter by violating his wife, for the Lord avenges all such sins, as we have solemnly warned you before. God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives. Therefore, anyone who refuses to live by these rules is not disobeying human teaching but is rejecting God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
i agree with jehovah's witnesses!.
(i bet reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!).
to jehovah's witnesses: i commend your zeal for god, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the bible, your goals of drawing close to jehovah, and following and obeying christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the bible.
AllElseFails, thank you very much! You summed up what I was trying to say much better than I did. You explained it perfectly!
i agree with jehovah's witnesses!.
(i bet reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!).
to jehovah's witnesses: i commend your zeal for god, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the bible, your goals of drawing close to jehovah, and following and obeying christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the bible.
Deputy Dog,
Also, if you cannot see from Jesus' teachings and Paul's teachings that Christians are constantly commanded to obey Christ's commands, then I am sorry. We are absolutely NOT saved by works, but we are commanded to do good works for Christ, and are commanded not to sin.
Here are just a few passages which say that:
James 2:20 (ESV): Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Titus 3:8 (ESV): The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
1st Timothy 6:18-19 (ESV) They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.
Titus 3:14 (ESV): And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.
Titus 1:16 (ESV): They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
Romans 13:13-14 (ESV): Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
1 Corinthians 5:11 (ESV): But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1 Corinthians 10:7-12 (ESV): Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play." We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV): For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Titus 2:7 (ESV): Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,
Titus 2:14-15 (ESV): who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Hebrews 10:24 (ESV): And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
James 2:14-17 (ESV): What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Revelation 2:5 (ESV): Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
Revelation 2:19 (ESV): "'I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.
Revelation 3:2 (ESV): Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.
i agree with jehovah's witnesses!.
(i bet reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!).
to jehovah's witnesses: i commend your zeal for god, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the bible, your goals of drawing close to jehovah, and following and obeying christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the bible.
Deputy Dog,
Let me be extremely, totally clear:
Salvation has NOTHING to do with own works. Period. When God saves us, it is NOT based on any works whatsoever. Period.
Paul taught that Jesus will judge our works (and our rewards in heaven will be based on them):
1 Corinthians 3:12-15: Now if anyone builds on the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay, stubble, each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is. If anyone’s work that he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward; if anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved; yet, if so, it will be as through fire.
Paul also said that the Jews were very zealous for God, but not according to accurate knowledge:
Romans 10:1-4 (GOD'S Word Translation): Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God on behalf of the Jewish people is that they would be saved. I can assure you that they are deeply devoted to God, but they are misguided. They don't understand how to receive God's approval. So they try to set up their own way to get it, and they have not accepted God's way for receiving his approval. Christ is the fulfillment of Moses' Teachings so that everyone who has faith may receive God's approval.
Romans 10:1-4 (ESV): Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
From my experience, it's the same way with most Witnesses today.
Peter said this:
Acts 3:17 (ESV): "And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
i agree with jehovah's witnesses!.
(i bet reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!).
to jehovah's witnesses: i commend your zeal for god, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the bible, your goals of drawing close to jehovah, and following and obeying christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the bible.
Deputy Dog,
You said:
"I'm just a little curious. If you are indeed a Christian, how can you have so much in common with JWs, when Jws don't even know what Christians are? For example: 30:) Christians should live by God's moral standards -- no fornication, adultery, murder, stealing, lying, idolatry, or even lusting and hating others. I thought Christians lived by faith, not by "moral standards" "
Christians do live by faith, and we are saved only by grace through faith in the true Christ, but I am sure you have also read Jesus Christ's moral teachings, have you not? Haven't you read His Sermon on the Mount? Look what Christ said at the end of His Sermon: Matthew 7:24-27: “Therefore everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man, who built his house upon the rock-mass. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded upon the rock-mass. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great.” Luke 6:46-49: “Why, then, do YOU call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say? Everyone that comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show YOU whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug and went down deep and laid a foundation upon the rock-mass. Consequently, when a flood arose, the river dashed against that house, but was not strong enough to shake it, because of its being well built. On the other hand, he who hears and does not do, is like a man who built a house upon the ground without a foundation. Against it the river dashed, and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house became great.” Notice what else Jesus said: John 14:15, 21: “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; ... He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.” John 15:8: My Father is glorified in this, that YOU keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples. John 15:14: YOU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU. And James said this: James 1:22-25: However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. For if anyone is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself, and off he goes and immediately forgets what sort of man he is. But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it]. And I am well aware that the Bible also says that we can only please God by our good works AFTER we have been born again and the Holy Spirit is dwelling within us. My point was, I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses thatwe should obey Christ's moral teachings. If you have a problem with that, maybe you should take it up with Jesus. Deputy Dog said:
" When God looks at your heart, does He see anything different than the JW's heart? If so what? And if not, what separates you, the JW, and the nonbeliever?"
God drew me to His Son, and when I repented and put all my trust in Jesus as my God, Lord, and Savior, then He caused me to be born again by His Spirit. I am saved only by grace through faith in Christ's sacrifice and resurrection. All have fallen short of God's glorious standard, and there is no difference between anyone. God chooses to draw whomever He chooses to have mercy upon, and then, those whom He has drawn either accept or reject His salvation. Deputy Dog said:
"Do you really believe the only problem with the JWs is that they just haven't taken in enough "accurate knowledge"? Don't you think your being even a little dishonest about what you have in common with them?"
According to the Bible, Satan has blinded the minds of all of the unbelievers, and they can only come to their senses if God draws them to His Son. Jehovah's Witnesses are no different in this regard.
And, yes, it is a lack of true knowledge about God and His Son Jesus that prevents them from being saved.
In what way are you saying that I was "dishonest"?
Why are you trying to accuse me of being dishonest and casting doubt on whether I am a true Christian?
* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.
(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).
(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).
Reniaa,
Can you explain why the New World Translation inserted the Name "Jehovah" into the following verses? (Can you at least show why the translators thought they were justified in inserting the Divine Name where it was NOT being quoted from the Old Testament?)
Mark 5:19-20 (NWT): However, he did not let him, but said to him: “Go home to your relatives, and report to them all the things Jehovah has done for you and the mercy he had on you.” And he went away and started to proclaim in the De·cap´o·lis all the things Jesus did for him, and all the people began to wonder.
Mark 13:20 (NWT): In fact, unless Jehovah had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen he has cut short the days.
Acts 1:24-25 (NWT): And they prayed and said: “You, O Jehovah, who know the hearts of all, designate which one of these two men you have chosen, to take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas deviated to go to his own place.”
Acts 2:47 (NWT): praising God and finding favor with all the people. At the same time Jehovah continued to join to them daily those being saved.
Acts 5:9 (NWT): So Peter said to her: “Why was it agreed upon between YOU [two] to make a test of the spirit of Jehovah? Look! The feet of those who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
Acts 7:59-60 (NWT): And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].
(That passage is my favorite to use when showing this to Jehovah's Witnesses, because if you look at it in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation, Stephen was obviously praying to the LORD JESUS in both 7:59 and 7:60, but the NWT tries to change it in verse 60 to "Jehovah" with absolutely NO justification whatsoever!)
Acts 8:22-24 (NWT): Repent, therefore, of this badness of yours, and supplicate Jehovah that, if possible, the device of your heart may be forgiven you; for I see you are a poisonous gall and a bond of unrighteousness.” In answer Simon said: “YOU men, make supplication for me to Jehovah that none of the things YOU have said may come upon me.”
Acts 9:31 (NWT): Then, indeed, the congregation throughout the whole of Ju·de´a and Gal´i·lee and Sa·mar´i·a entered into a period of peace, being built up; and as it walked in the fear of Jehovah and in the comfort of the holy spirit it kept on multiplying.
Acts 10:33 (NWT): Therefore I at once sent to you, and you did well in coming here. And so at this time we are all present before God to hear all the things you have been commanded by Jehovah to say.”
Acts 11:20-21 (NWT): However, out of them there were some men of Cy´prus and Cy·re´ne that came to Antioch and began talking to the Greek-speaking people, declaring the good news of the Lord Jesus. Furthermore, the hand of Jehovah was with them, and a great number that became believers turned to the Lord.
Acts 12:17 (NWT): But he motioned to them with his hand to be silent and told them in detail how Jehovah brought him out of the prison, and he said: “Report these things to James and the brothers.” With that he went out and journeyed to another place.
Acts 12:24 (NWT): But the word of Jehovah went on growing and spreading.
Acts 13:2 (NWT): As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Bar´na·bas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 13:10-12 (NWT): and said: “O man full of every sort of fraud and every sort of villainy, you son of the Devil, you enemy of everything righteous, will you not quit distorting the right ways of Jehovah? Well, then, look! Jehovah’s hand is upon you, and you will be blind, not seeing the sunlight for a period of time.” Instantly a thick mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went around seeking men to lead him by the hand. Then the proconsul, upon seeing what had happened, became a believer, as he was astounded at the teaching of Jehovah.
Acts 14:3 (NWT): Therefore they spent considerable time speaking with boldness by the authority of Jehovah, who bore witness to the word of his undeserved kindness by granting signs and portents to occur through their hands.
Romans 12:11 (NWT): Do not loiter at YOUR business. Be aglow with the spirit. Slave for Jehovah.
Romans 14:5-9 (NWT): One [man] judges one day as above another; another [man] judges one day as all others; let each [man] be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah. Also, he who eats, eats to Jehovah, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, and yet gives thanks to God. None of us, in fact, lives with regard to himself only, and no one dies with regard to himself only; for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.
(That is another one of my favorites, because if you look at the context, especially verse 9, Paul is saying that Jesus died and came to life to become our LORD, and then that means the previous verses were referring to the Lord JESUS! The Greek has "Lord" in ALL of those verses, so why does the NWT insert "Jehovah" there? Again, there is absolutely no justification for this.)
1 Corinthians 4:4-5 (NWT): For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.
1 Corinthians 4:19 (NWT): But I will come to YOU shortly, if Jehovah wills, and I shall get to know, not the speech of those who are puffed up, but [their] power.
Ephesians 5:17-20 (NWT): On this account cease becoming unreasonable, but go on perceiving what the will of Jehovah is. Also, do not be getting drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but keep getting filled with spirit, speaking to yourselves with psalms and praises to God and spiritual songs, singing and accompanying yourselves with music in YOUR hearts to Jehovah, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father
Ephesians 6:7-8 (NWT): Be slaves with good inclinations, as to Jehovah, and not to men, for YOU know that each one, whatever good he may do, will receive this back from Jehovah, whether he be slave or freeman.
Colossians 3:22-24 (NWT): YOU slaves, be obedient in everything to those who are [your] masters in a fleshly sense, not with acts of eye-service, as men pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, with fear of Jehovah. Whatever YOU are doing, work at it whole-souled as to Jehovah, and not to men, for YOU know that it is from Jehovah YOU will receive the due reward of the inheritance. SLAVE for the Master, Christ.
(That's another important passage, because look closely at 3:24 and you will see that Paul was definitely talking about Christ, but the NWT inserts "Jehovah" in the previous verses with absolutely NO justification again.)
Jude 1:5 (NWT): I desire to remind YOU, despite YOUR knowing all things once for all time, that Jehovah, although he saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith.
(Look up Jude 1:5 in the newest Study Bibles, such as ESV, NLT, NET, and others, and you will see that the best manuscripts have "JESUS" in verse 5, and instead, the NWT inserts "Jehovah"!)
Revelation 1:8 (NWT): “I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
Revelation 4:8 (NWT): And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings; round about and underneath they are full of eyes. And they have no rest day and night as they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.”
Revelation 4:11 (NWT): “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”
Revelation 11:17 (NWT): saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.
Revelation 16:7 (NWT): And I heard the altar say: “Yes, Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions.”
Revelation 18:8 (NWT): That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.
Revelation 22:6-7 (NWT): And he said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah the God of the inspired expressions of the prophets sent his angel forth to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And, look! I am coming quickly. Happy is anyone observing the words of the prophecy of this scroll.”
Reniaa, can you please explain why the New World Translation has the word "Jehovah" in all of those verses, where there is absolutely no justification for it in the Koine Greek manuscripts? (Please examine your own copy of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation to verify this)
By adding the word "Jehovah" into the Greek Scriptures where it does not belong, the translators of the New World Translation have put themselves under the CURSE made by Jesus at the end of the book of Revelation:
Revelation 22:18-19 (NWT): “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.
Most of those verses above were referring to the Lord Jesus Christ (if you examine the context you will see this), but the Watchtower Society changes it to "Jehovah" with NO justification at all. That is dishonest and it is adding to the Word of God, a very serious offense in God's eyes.
