Wonderment

Wonderment

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22
How To Learn A Second Language, Ideas, Thoughts On Which To Learn?
by Bubblegum Apotheosis in
1. jw
2. friends
no doubt there are polyglots on jwn, what do you think the best language to learn is?

spanish, french, german, tagalog or?????.

what language did you find most diffucult to learn, does anyone speak hindi, farsi, arabic or any asian languages?
Wonderment

P.S.
I meant "immerse" yourself in the culture and language you intend to learn, not "submerge" in it.
22
How To Learn A Second Language, Ideas, Thoughts On Which To Learn?
by Bubblegum Apotheosis in
1. jw
2. friends
no doubt there are polyglots on jwn, what do you think the best language to learn is?

spanish, french, german, tagalog or?????.

what language did you find most diffucult to learn, does anyone speak hindi, farsi, arabic or any asian languages?
Wonderment

I agree with those who recommend Spanish. If you know English and Spanish both, you can communicate with a lot more people than with the other languages worldwide. Even here in America, knowing Spanish can get you a job in unexpected places.
Good dictionaries are a must. A Verb conjugator book is also a must. And having similar literature of your choice of the language you intend to learn to compare with English. Hey, the WT literature can help you learn a language. You have the NWT Online in numerous languages to compare Scriptures. Etc...
As others indicated, submerging yourself in the culture will help greatly. Short of moving to another country, one can join an organization, religious or other, and take part in their activities. Practice, practice, practice and after that practice!
Learning a new language is harder than most folks think. It requires lots of discipline and determination. A cursory interest in it won't do it. But the rewards are great! Millions of people prove that when there is a will, there is a way.
28
Undeserved Kindness vs Grace - Watchtower flaw in a NUTSHELL
by sabastious in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
romans 1:7. new international version.

"to all in rome who are loved by god and called to be saints: .

grace and peace to you from god our father and from the lord jesus christ.".
Wonderment

This is one more example of various groups going to extremes in thinking. On one hand, the WT uses the expresssion "undeserved kindness" throughout, which in certain contexts (such as John 1:14 and the verse above, Ro 1:7) does not make sense, and in the other, we have some people pulling away from the basic idea of cha'ris, which carries the following idea:

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Words: “(charis), grace, gracefulness, graciousness, favour, thanks, gratitude” “(charisma), gift given out of goodwill.” (Vol. 2, p. 115)

James MacArthur: “One of the best-known definitions of grace is only three words: God's unmerited favor."

William Barclay: “The whole basic idea of the word [cha'risma, closely related to cha'ris] is that of a free and undeserved gift, of something given to a man unearned and unmerited, something which comes from God's grace and which could never have been achieved or attained or possessed by a man's own effort.” (New Testament Words, 1974, p. 63)
"This word [grace] has always two basic ideas in it. (a) It always has the idea of something completely undeserved. [...] (b.) It always has the idea of beauty in it. In modern Greek the word means charm..." (The gospel of John, p. 66, Barclay)
In some Bible contexts, it is acceptable to render it as "undeserved kindness," where as in others it is better to render it, as "gracious favor" "loving kindness" "loving favor," etc. Hence, the biblical advice:

“ Watch carefully in case any one of you should fall away from God's gracious favour and a resentment develop in him which could contaminate others.” (Hebrews 12:15 , 21 st Century NT)
"Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer due to works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness no longer proves to be undeserved kindness." (Ro 11:6, NWT)

“ Consequently, what shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, that undeserved kindness may abound? Never may that happen! Seeing that we died with reference to sin, how shall we keep on living any longer in it?” (Romans 6:1,2, NWT)
Thus, it is a good thing to emphasize the positive aspect and beauty conveyed by "grace," but we cannot do away entirely of the Christian responsibility toward God. One group misuses the Greek word to extract more and more from their followers, and the other group hides behind the popular English word "grace" and the expression, "Once saved always saved" to excuse their poor conduct among men. The writings of Paul argue against those extremes. Balance is the key.
13
F&DS reducing occurrences of JESUS in revised New World Translation
by wannabefree in
1. watchtower
2. bible
after much prayerful consideration, responsible representatives of the "faithful and discreet slave" class have decided to reduce the number of times that the name jesus appears in the main text of the new world translation of the holy scriptures (greek scriptures) from 919 to 79.. the reason for this change is one of the same reasons recently given for the new songbook.

as you may recall, the songbook "sing praises to jehovah" had about half of the songs with jesus as the theme.

in the new songbook, "sing to jehovah", we felt it appropriate for jehovah to be exalted more than jesus so the songbook reflects that balanced view by having 2/3 of the songs praising jehovah and 1/3 to jesus.. the translation committee for the new world translation of the holy scriptures found it appropriate to restore the divine name "jehovah" 237 times in the main text of the christian greek scriptures, this is very disproportionate from the number of times the name "jesus"occurs, which is 919 times in the main text.
Wonderment

tornapart said: "I've noticed more songs in the songbook praising the FDS, GB... Jesus gets barely a look in. I can't sing them. I find it disturbing that Christ is getting increasingly left out. I much prefer the NIV bible to the NWT. At least Christ has his rightful place in it."
I find it disturbing too that Christ is getting increasingly left out in the JWs circle. It is appaling!
About the NIV and the NWT comment, I think both versions are accurate enough, but both push their theological agenda in more than a few places, as is true with most Bible versions. The NIV "evangelical" approach is evident throughout. I still like the NIV a lot, and I feel, that it is one translation that successfully conveys God's Word in a readable manner while staying close to the "original" Text. In that sense, they did an admirable job.
9
What is "PRESENT" truth? Who understands the Greek ?
by hamsterbait in
1. social
2. humour
i dont know greek, but cant help wondering what the word "present" in that phrase means.. the borg uses it to mean "what we tell you at this time is true".. i wonder if it means present in the sense of somebody you know being present in the room with you.. "the truth present in our lives" "the truth that is here with us".. just wondering..... hb.
Wonderment

Thank you Leolaia for the excellent summary!
3
Grace vs. Undeserved Kindness
by bats in the belfry in
1. watchtower
2. bible
just doing some research on the wt lib cd - - wow, the balls these people have is just unbearable.. .

is not the new world translation of the christian greek scriptures verbose, for instance, in using catches sight of for sees at 1 john 5:16 and undeserved kindness for grace?j.

s., united states.. .
Wonderment

moggy lover:
The aorist and the subjunctive are dealt variably in translation according to the context. There is quite a bit of leeway in translation. In certain contexts, the aorist is best rendered in a punctiliar sense, in others, with a past tense, and so on. The subjunctive does not always require to use "should," "may," etc. in translation.
This tense and mood have brought many a headache to translators. For instance, at John 17:3, some translators render the Greek, "that they may be knowing you" as an infinitive "to know you." It is possible to do so.
At 1 John 5:16, one could say it is not modern English to render it literally: "If ever anyone should see the brother of him sinning..." The expression "If anyone catches sight of his brother sinning" brings out the aorist subjunctive well, in my opinion. Moffat expresses this way: "If anyone notices his brother committing a sin..." Other translators read: "If anyone sees his brother sinning..." All of these readings view the condition as a possibility, without having to use "should," etc. It is virtually impossible to translate aorist subjunctives exactly the same way in a modern translation.
9
What is "PRESENT" truth? Who understands the Greek ?
by hamsterbait in
1. social
2. humour
i dont know greek, but cant help wondering what the word "present" in that phrase means.. the borg uses it to mean "what we tell you at this time is true".. i wonder if it means present in the sense of somebody you know being present in the room with you.. "the truth present in our lives" "the truth that is here with us".. just wondering..... hb.
Wonderment

The Greek expression for "present truth" is: te paroúse aletheía, which can be translated literally as: the being beside truth; the being present truth; the present truth.
The second word in the Gr. expression paroúse is related to parousía which we being taught in the KH that it means "presence." Both paroúse and parousía are related to páreimi which basically means, (from pará, beside and eimí, be). Various versions below can help us understand the expression:
ISV: Therefore, I intend to keep on reminding you about these things, even though you already know them and are firmly established in the truth that you now have.
Darby: Wherefore I will be careful to put you always in mind of these things, although knowing them and established in the present truth.
Weymouth: For this reason I shall always persist in reminding you of these things, although you know them and are stedfast believers in truth which you already possess.
Young's: Wherefore, I will not be careless always to remind you concerning these things, though, having known them, and having been established in the present truth,
NSB: I will always be ready to remind you of these things. Even though you know them, and are established in the truth that is present with you.
21st Cent: "...in the truth as presently revealed."
Twentieth Cent: "...in the Truth that you now hold."
Vincent's Word Studies: In the present truth (ε?ν τη?? παρου´ση? α?ληθει´α?)
i.e., the truth which is present with you through the instruction of your teachers; not the truth at present under consideration. See on 2 Peter 1:9; and compare the same phrase in Colossians 1:6, rendered, is come unto you.
Barnes' Notes: And be established in the present truth - That is, the truth which is with you, or which you have received - Robinson's Lexicon on the word πα´ρειμι pareimi. The apostle did not doubt that they were now confirmed in the truth as far as it had been made known to them, but he felt that amidst their trials, and especially as they were liable to be drawn away by false teachers, there was need of reminding them of the grounds on which the truths which they had embraced rested, and of adding his own testimony to confirm their Divine origin. Though we may be very firm in our belief of the truth, yet there is a propriety that the grounds of our faith should be stated to us frequently, that they may be always in our remembrance. The mere fact that at present we are firm in the belief of the truth, is no certain evidence that we shall always continue to be; nor because we are thus firm should we deem it improper for our religious teachers to state the grounds on which our faith rests, or to guard us against the arts of those who would attempt to subvert our faith.
35
At long last - Six Screens of the Watchtower website now Open!
by Incognito in
1. jw
2. friends
hi everybody.. i've been a long time lurker here (as are sooo many others.

further to following mouthy's thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/129936/1.ashx , i noticed that the 'six screens' website is finally shown as being able to be 'checked out'.. i believe minimus first posted about this some months back.

some here have been waiting & asking about it ever since.. http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com.
Wonderment

Proceed with caution!
As someone stated, I found the website "overdone" and inaccurate. I don't mind error exposure of the WT (heck I enjoyed Ray Franz' and J. Penton's books), but this is not something I can label as "reliable."
For instance, the site's treatment of John 1:1 is unfair and totally one-sided, factwise. Ex-JWs deserve more respect. Go elsewhere for criticism.
49
What are the best Bible Translations?
by Londo111 in
1. watchtower
2. bible
growing up in a jw family, my parents and my grandparents had many versions of the bible...not just the new world translation.

sometimes i read these.

but i always bought the hype that the new world translation was the most unbiased and most consistent in rendering hebrew and greek into the modern language.
Wonderment

Londo111 asked: "So...what modern translations are the best? Which are free from preconceived doctrines? Which have the most consistent renderings? Which have the most accredited translators who know ancient Hebrew and Greek?"
Which are free from preconconceived doctrines?
None! No one translator is totally free of personal bias.
Which have the most accredited translators who know ancient Hebrew and Greek?
It doesn't matter as much as many are led to believe. The "most accredited translators" will not necessarily produce the best translation. Of course, a good knowledge of the ancient biblical languages is necessary, but general "attitude" and the level of "dogmatism" displayed is just as important in translation work. When I mention "attitude," I refer to the translator's disposition toward truth and fairness to potential readers, how "open" is the translator to other views.
One common mistake many folks make at the time of selecting a Bible translation is to choose only the ones that agree with what they are inclined to believe. For instance, a JW that only uses the NWT and rejects others is not going to get the full benefit of Bible translation work. Those Evangelicals who only choose to use versions that are "conservative" in line with their preconceived views would also fail to see other equally valid views, etc.
Thus, I recommend to at least get a few Bible versions of various denominations in order to keep a more balanced, open approach. That is, get some Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and any other versions you can get your hands on. Of course, keeping the NWT and the Kingdom Interlinear helps in this matter.
18
KIT availability
by Joey Jo-Jo in
1. watchtower
2. bible
i have questions about this book:.

is it still able to be ordered at the counter?.

would this be a book that many people that are currently jw's aware of?.
Wonderment

Just to be sure, are you referring to the Kingdom Interlinear Translation?
If so, I heard it is out of print. Not sure is still available.