our actions, wants, and desires are determined by what we hold most precious.
we will sacrifice one thing for another depending how they rank on our personal totem pole.
i have a cousin that became a jw - which brought me to this board.
Pirata, wearing his Apologist hat, says:
Last time I checked, a lot of Christians loved Jesus, but they weren't exactly commiting suicide so that they could be with him earlier.--what the heck? that makes no sense whatsoever.
Exactly. I defined love of Jesus as wanting to be with Jesus right now. Not everyone agrees with that definition of love.
Similarly, if you define love of Jehovah as wanting to be with him in heaven, not everyone is going to agree with that definition of love.
our actions, wants, and desires are determined by what we hold most precious.
we will sacrifice one thing for another depending how they rank on our personal totem pole.
i have a cousin that became a jw - which brought me to this board.
Here's my apologist stance (since you were looking for one):
Last time I checked, a lot of Christians loved Jesus, but they weren't exactly commiting suicide so that they could be with him earlier.
The JW 'other sheep' believe that God's purpose for them is to be on the earth, so if they love God they'll want to be used how God sees fit.
i don't want to get graphic with this and get this thread locked, so please don't go overboard with answers.. i was having a discussion with someone about the jw experience, and was wondering if, since "jehovah" is an important part of the religion, during the moments of intense passion in a relationship, would you yell out, "oh, jehovah!
oh, jehovah!".
seriously, would a witness do that?.
Maybe they were doing a sexual practice discouraged upon by the Governing Body, so they were asking for forgiveness.
i couldn't put it down!
very informative.
i agreed with it all.
Although I found a copy of CoC to read online, I ended up buying the PDFs of Coc and ISOC on commentary press website to show my thanks (and provide some support for Mrs. Franz). They're only $8 or so each.
Got this email forwarded to me by JWs: We heard an interesting experience today at the SAD. Because of the economy being so bad in Ohio. Pres. Obama has been to Ohio 3 times this year. One factory is in the Cleveland/Pittsburgh area. A Bro. was chosen to be on the "Meet & Greet" team when Obama came to give a speech at his factory. He told his brother (also a JW) & they started joking about witnessing to the president. Then he realized he actually did have an opportunity if he took advantage of it. So he prayed & decided he'd use the Teach Book & the chap. on "Are We In The Last Days". He prayed most of the night before & the morning before he went to work. When he got there the FBI agents told all 9 men "Do not reach for anything out of your pocket. Armed guards are everywhere". Now he had to figure out where to put the Teach book as he'd planned on putting it in his back pocket. Every man was searched & no one ever questioned why he had a book in his pocket.... as if they couldn't see it. :-) They told him he'd be next to last in line. So he kept his book in his left hand so he could shake with his right hand. He watched all the men in the line ahead of him as Obama usually shook hands & then gave them a "hug" which only took about 20 seconds with each man. Our Bro. is thinking there's no way he could give a presentation & offer the book in 20 seconds. But he kept praying. Finally the Pres. comes to him & shakes his hand. Our Bro. says immediately, "Would it be appropriate to give you a book?". Obama said, "Certainly". So our Bro. hands him the book open to that chapter & says, "I know you've had to deal with a lot of problems in your short time as president. This chapter will explain why many of these things are happening & bring you some comfort & satisfaction in seeing how those problems will soon be eliminated."(or something like that.... I don't write my notes very fast) The president thanked him, looked at the questions at the top of the page & smiled, saying he looked forward to reading it. So you can tell the friends you know that Obama HAS been witnessed to & given a book by a Bro. from Ohio Circuit 12A. Sometimes you hear from a friend of a friend of a friend, that an exciting witness was given to a famous person. This one can be verified by about 1,029 people!!! Supposedly (I'd received an email before that election) his running-mate, Joe Biden was also given the book several yrs. ago. So now that the president & vice-president both have a book, they can resign & become Witnesses. lol
my wife gets emails from someone who is serving in another country.. he keeps on referring to brothers/sisters who are 'need greaters'.. if they are actually using this expression then i have to say that it is the stupidest 'title' that they have ever dreamed up.
so full of their own self importance.. need greaters?..............
.
A brother who visited South America was telling me about the "need greaters" and said that there was even a special meeting for the "need greaters" there. It seems to be some type of witness slang as I've never seen it in the publications.
besides the usual drivel there were a couple interesting things.
1. an entire 1 hour discourse on helping our children become little innocent martyrs for the wt via.
their flawed and unreasonable blood doctrine.
A few years later, it was even recognized that higher education was needed for many jobs that in the past were not required. So, the social sanctions were lightened up a bit, but, because the society found that almost everyone who attends college leaves the organization, they have gone back to their former hard line stance against college/university.
Even if they don't leave, a college-graduate is less likely to pioneer (which was the whole purpose of education, supporting yourself as a poineer....)
i was told this a while back by my mother in law.
she feels that all my troubles (and doubts about the organization) can eventually be conquered by "more deep bible study.".
i have come to the conclusion that to be a die hard witness you really have to have a good amount of suggestibility in your personality.
Sab, your mother-in-law may have forgotten that Deep spiritual truths are only revealed to responsible representatives in Brooklyn headquarters... We learned that this year in the Watchtower.
had a good look into the doctrine, beliefs and practices of jws and to be honest, i don't really see anything wrong with it at all.. it's biblical and i've had such an eye opener the past year or so reading some of their books and magazines .
is there really any real reasons why i shouldn't want to get involved further?
:-).
Hi anonymous4,
Most JWs I know are good people. have no problems with many of the Biblical interpretations of the group. I admire how they stick so closely to Christian Morals and convictions.
What I found troubling though is that:
Check out http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk and http://www.jwfacts.com/ for Watchtower references that will confirm the above points. If you don't trust any of the quotes, we can provide scans of the originals or they can be found in the Watchtower Library CD-ROM.
Keep on searching and investigating. I'm not going to say either way what you should do, but make sure you do it with full knowledge of what you're getting into.
continuing the off-topic discussion in: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/202959/1/another-question-about-the-governing-body.
Hi Botzwana,
Alright, here's my take on disfellowshipping and the scriptures. I claim neither inspiration nor absolute correctness in my analysis :)
Considering only Jesus instructions, one does not get the impression that those who have left the faith should be shunned.
(Matthew 18:15-17) “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.
(Matthew 9:9-13) Next, while passing along from there, Jesus caught sight of a man named Matthew seated at the tax office, and he said to him: “Be my follower.” Thereupon he did rise up and follow him. 10 Later, while he was reclining at the table in the house, look! many tax collectors and sinners came and began reclining with Jesus and his disciples. 11 But on seeing this the Pharisees began to say to his disciples: “Why is it that YOUR teacher eats with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 Hearing [them], he said: “Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do. 13 Go, then, and learn what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”
Jesus said "let him be to you just as a man of the nations". The watchtower 99 10/15 p17-20 has a discussion of this.scripture. Regarding it, the article says:
w99 10/15 p19 par 6 "Jesus' disciples hearing those words knew that their countrymen would not socialize with Gentiles. And they definitely avoided tax collectors, men who were born Jewish but who turned into misusers of the people."
I don't really buy that explanation because Jesus wanted his followers to follow his example, not the Jewish customs of the time. Matthew 18 and Matthew 9 make it clear that Jesus ate with tax collectors and talked to Gentiles on occasions.
Now we have the apostles who started to set up guidelines as problems rose in the congregation. Notice who is addressed in this scripture:
(1 Corinthians 5:9-13) In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
Here it seems clear to me that one would not eat with a "anyone called a brother" who is practicing serious sin. Once they are removed from the congregation, the judging is done. God judges those on the outside. The scripture does not say to continue judging them once they have been removed from the congregation?
A second category to be avoided is the antichrist:
(2 John 7-11) For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward. 9 Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.
(1 John 2:22) Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son.
If we take the simple definitions of that antichrist as those who do not confess Jesus as coming in the flesh and those who deny the Father and the Son, that applies to pretty much all atheists and non-christians (the JWs would also apply it to "Christendom" since they deny the "truth" about the father). To me (in JW land), I think this means that we should treat the antichrist the same as a "worldly" person.
In what sense do we not invite them into our home or say a greeting to them? I found an amusing article regarding this with a Christian asking if, in light of 1 John 10, it is okay to invite JWs or Mormons into their home. (http://www.ronrhodes.org/q2john10.html). The basic thrust is that at the time, Christians met in private homes for worship. Thus it would not be right to allow the antichrist's in to worship/teach together. This is similar to how we JWs would not worship with people of other religions either. This whole argument assumes that by receiving them into your homes or saying a greeting to them actually means "in worship". I'm not entirely convinced that it does, though.
In summary, people have a tendency to try and spin the scriptures to match the teaching they favor most. Both sides can have good points. I think the Bible has generous room for interpretation on this matter, and it is better to err on the side of Jesus' love rather than Pharisee's rules. Forcing people to completely reject their family and friends and calling it "love" just seems to far from the love that Jesus taught.
Feel free to challenge any of my points. I'm still forming my thoughts on this (ask me a year ago and I would have wholeheartedly agreed that disfellowshipping as practiced by JWs is scriptural. I felt that between that and the preaching work it was a sign of true Christianity).
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On a completely different (non-scriptural) level, I think that any form of mandatory shunning of opposing people/information is a form of manipulation used by an organization, whether religious or political, in order to keep control of their subjects. If you've never read the novel "1984", I'd highly recommend it.
