Many thanks for those quotes. The worried father of a young guy who has recently been baptised has given me a list of "characteristics of a cultic group" and asked me to provide WT quotes that support those characteristics. I've done a bit of work on the list already, but many of those quotes fill in the gaps immediately, with very up-to-date statements that would torpedo any "Old light" defence. Greatly appreciated.
MrMonroe
JoinedPosts by MrMonroe
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Quotes from 2010 Watchtower publications
by wannabefree inthis magazine has long been used by "the faithful and discreet slave" as the primary channel for dispensing increased light.
(matt.
24:45) for example, consider our understanding of those who make up "this generation" mentioned by jesus.
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Did You Believe That The World Adored JW's?
by mentallyfree31 inas a jw, i always believed that the outside world adored us.
i knew that many people didn't care for us, and didn't believe our teachings, but i thought our conduct was a "bright light" shining to the world.
from the stage, we heard endless stories of business people and other non-jws praising us because we were such nice people.
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MrMonroe
My wife makes the point that when she used to explain to teachers and other parents why our kids didn't celebrate birthdays, Christmas and Easter she got the impression they respected our stand as a matter of conscience.
Since we left, we see it from an entirely different perspective. We hear other parents speaking with puzzlement and dismay that JW kids are denied these things and are victims of their parents' nutty and restrictive religion. Which mirrors our own view now!
The barrage of talks claiming how councils, governments, businesses etc viewed Witnesses with such respect was pure self-reassurance. We all knew from the reaction at doors how exasperated and irritated ordinary people were with our religion, which insisted they listen to our views and also insisted OUR religion was the only true one. That private irritation would simply be a reflection of what the wider community, including schools, councils, doctors etc feel.
Bottom line: everyone hates Jehovah's Witnesses.
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In what year did Rutherford forbid military service?
by jwfacts ini am trying to find out when military service was forbidden.. russell allowed participation in war and military service.. .
"there is no command in the scriptures against military service.
it would be quite right to shoot, not to kill.
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MrMonroe
See also WT January 15, 1918 (pg 6202R) reporting on the shareholders' meeting (at which JFR was re-elected president and explained it was the Lord's will):
REGARDING MILITARY EXEMPTION
Quite a number of our brethren in different parts of the country have been denied military exemption. Some of them, because of their refusal to engage in military service, have been court-martialed and sentenced to long terms in prison, while others are held in detention camps in different parts of the country. Those attending the convention felt it incumbent upon them to express their love and sympathy in support of these dear brethren who are so loyally standing for the prineiples represented by our Association; and it was deemed proper to pass a resolution relating to the matter. A committee previously appointed for that purpose reported a resolution on Sunday morning which was read before the convention and, upon motion, was seconded and unanimously adopted. The resolution follows:
... That we recognize ... that the Congress of the United States, representing the people of that nation, placed a provision in the Selective Act that no person should be compelled to engage in military service who is a member of a well-organized religious organization or association whose teachings or principles forbid its members to engage in war, or who are against war in any form; that in taking the position they do, our members are claiming only the protection the law provides against violation of conscience.
"THIRD. That we are followers of the Great Master Christ Jesus our Redeemer, and have covenanted with the Lord to do his will; and that we are certain that it is not his will that we, as his followers, should participate in the great war now upon the earth. We recognize in the present great war one that is different from any other war ever before known, to wit: That it marks the end of the world -- that is to say, the end of the present evil order of things -- and is purging the nations and preparing the way for the kingdom of God for which followers of the Great Master, Christ Jesus, have prayed for many centuries; and that for forty years past this Association has held and taught that the year 1914 would mark the beginning of this great international conflict which the prophets of the Lord foretold must take place, immediately preceding the establishment of the everlasting kingdom of righteousness.
The official line at that point, then, was that Bible Students did not fight.
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In what year did Rutherford forbid military service?
by jwfacts ini am trying to find out when military service was forbidden.. russell allowed participation in war and military service.. .
"there is no command in the scriptures against military service.
it would be quite right to shoot, not to kill.
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MrMonroe
Tony Wills, in A People For His Name (pg 100) says:
Volume Seven (of the Studies in the Scriptures) opposed the war. It termed patriotism "a certain delusion" and "in reality murder, the spirit of the very Devil", and "a narrow-minded hatred of other people". It also quoted a great deal from Reverend John Haynes Holmes who was viciously persecuted at about the same time for advocating pacifism. At about the same time General Bell of Long Island visited Rutherford to get his followers to submit to military service. Rutherford refused to do so. He wrote letters of advice to Bible students in the camps advising them not to don a uniform nor do anything even closely connected to the military. These letters were intercepted by the censors. All these factors added up to considerable opposition to the Bible students by the authorities.
Wills doesn't cite his source for the letters, but they may be the same as those quoted by Leolaia.
Also see WT March 1918, page 6221-2 reprints:
We are not against the Government in any sense of the word. We recognize the Government of the United States as the best government on earth. We recognize that the governments, being political and economic institutions, have the power and authority, under the fundamental law, to declare war and draft their citizens into military service. We have not the slightest disposition to interfere with this, nor to speak against it so far as the governments’ power or authority is concerned. We recognize that it is the duty of every citizen to obey the laws of the land, and the duty of every citizen, who can conscientiously do so, to participate in the defense of the country. All should be respectful to officers of the law. (Acts 23:5) The law the land recognizes that there are Christian people who cannot engage in military service without doing violence to their conscience. Hence the Congress of the United States, in passing the Selective Draft Act of May 18, 1917, inserted a clause providing that certain ones, under certain conditions, should not be compelled to engage in combatant military service. We hold that the members of our SOCIETY come within the purvue of this section of the law and are entitled to its protection. And none of our members, so far as we know, have done more than to claim the benefit of the provisions of this Act of Congress.
On May 15, 1918, (WT 6261R) an article "Non-Combatant Service Defined" explained how Bible students could claim exemption from the draft. The article concluded:
It is not the province of THE WATCH TOWER to tell any one what he should or should not do; but we can and do say that every Christian should be obedient to the law. The order of the President is a part of the Selective Draft Law. Where one in good faith has applied to the Local Board for classification and the Board has not issued to him a certificate granting non-combatant service, then when called he should readily respond to the call by going to the cantonment and presenting himself to the commanding officer, who, under the President’s order, has the power and authority to issue to him a certificate assigning him to non-combatant service. The President further provides that it is the privilege of such conscientious objectors to request assignment to some branch of non-combatant service aside from the Medical Department.
Rutherford may have written letters to Bible Students advising them against going to war, but in official publications, certainly at that time, he was much more circumspect, advising them only to take advantage of the legal avenue of claiming to be a conscientious objector.
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What was the worst part of the conventions for YOU?
by mochamint22 ini thought it'd be fun to talk about what part of the conventions just made you cringe or be annoyed with.
i can remember a couple things:.
i remember after the tms when they put the list in the back on the announcement board, there were people that would get up while the last song was being sung to write down the info.
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MrMonroe
LITS, That's so true .... except at my last convention I turned the tables on them. One guy was intensely interested in whether I'd been there on ALL THREE DAYS and said there had been a rumour that we'd only turned up on Sunday. I told him, "Go ahead, ask me a question." But he couldn't think of anything to ask because he, like 99 per cent of all the braindeads there, had been paying no attention and was there only because it was important that he be SEEN to be there.
I had been very interested in a "new thought" that from the first day was promoted as being one of the "exciting" things we should be listening out for. When it came (in a talk on the final day) it turned out to be that the new system might be ... wait for it ... even BETTER than we had ever imagined. What a crock. That was the "new thought".
So I said to this guy, "So Steve, what did you think of the 'new thought'?" He looked blank. "You didn't hear it?" I asked. So I repeated the "new thought".
Then he asked, "What was the highlight for you?"
I said to him, straight faced, "The closing song."
I left soon the arena soon after, as angry as I always was at the end of a time-wasting, self-congratulating three-day indoctrination session, furious that my weekend had just disappeared and I was back to work the next day.
What else did I hate?
*The competition by elders to make their prayers the longest of the session, particularly at the end of the day when they would "review" the convention, talk by talk.
*The audience's urge to applaud the lamest things (A new release? A new assembly hall despite police opposition in Uzbekistan? The completion of another wing at Bethel? A new peak in attendance at the Turkish-language convention in Sydney?)
*The belittling of anything to do with "the world" by COs and DOs who live in a bubble, their introspective lifestyle funded by people who DO work in the world and need it to eat and put a roof over their heads. (Television? Hair styles? Fashion styles? Higher education? Music? Movies? Driving behavior?)
*The obsession with getting volunteers to clean, clean, clean. I was stupid enough to volunteer one year and found myself spraying windex on handrails and door knobs every 20 minutes. In the toilets I heard some old fart berating a teenage boy because he wasn't cleaning the urinals well enough.
*The embarrassment of sitting through all this crap with paid arena staff standing inaside the auditorium hearing it all too. I'm cringing and thinking, why does this dickhead on the stage have to labour this stuff?
*And yeah, like 3Mozzies, the walk to and from the convention venue with suit and briefcase, trying to pretend people (including sneering footy fans) didn't think I was one of the other thousand morons going there.
Agony. Every convention. God I'm glad to be out of it.
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look at page 18 THE WATCHTOWER ? MARCH 1, 2011
by therevealer inlook at the illustration that shows a stake.
then follow the link and notice the numerous depictions of trees, crosses, etc.
that clearly show that this man did not presume to know the exact means of jesus loss of life.
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MrMonroe
Good find, TheRevealer. James Penton, in his "Apocalypse Delayed", referred to the WTS's dishonest use of this book as well. In the footnotes on page 372 he wrote:
"The society has, of course, pointed out something useful by noting that stauros does not necessarily mean 'cross' but simply a pale or timber. But nothing demonstrates so clearly how much their scholarship is affected by dogmatism than does this issue. There is a great deal of evidence from early church fathers such as Justin Martyr that Christians in his day believed that Christ was put to death on a cross. Roman writers such as Cicero state that Roman criminals were often executed on a cross, and modern archaeology supports the theory that Jews in Jesus' day were crucified on a cross.
"Finally, by showing but one illustration of Justus Lipsius' De cruce libri tres -- a picture of a man impaled on a crux simplex or upright pale -- on page 1578 of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with References, Watch Tower scholars falsely leave the impression that Lipsius thought thay Jesus was put to death in that way. In fact, Lipsius gives 16 illustrations of impalement, 13 of which show stakes with some sort of cross member. Although there is no conclusive proof, there is evidence that Christ died on a cross."
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What was the worst part of the conventions for YOU?
by mochamint22 ini thought it'd be fun to talk about what part of the conventions just made you cringe or be annoyed with.
i can remember a couple things:.
i remember after the tms when they put the list in the back on the announcement board, there were people that would get up while the last song was being sung to write down the info.
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MrMonroe
Hey 3Mozzies, I've sent you a PM. (Click on envelope logo at top of the page).
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What Did You Avoid In Order To Be A Good JW?
by minimus inwe were always told how the demons .
we avoided 2 door cars because it was (obviously) not a good service car.. there are plenty of things that you might think of to add to the list of no-nos for jehovah's witnesses.
any others?
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MrMonroe
Joining my workmates for Friday night drinks
Signing birthday cards for workmates
Playing "Blasphemous Rumours" by Depeche Mode, "One of Us" by Joan Osborne and anything by Melissa Etheridge
Keeping the difference when a shop assistant accidentally undercharged me
Singing the National Anthem
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Video Of JW's WItnessing
by Pig innew cartoon, i hope this isn't considered spam but this one took me a while and i'd like to share it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_pqu0bln74.
one criticism (god, that word reminds me of the tms) was that my other videos weren't boring enough to match what it's really like as a jw, i think i've captured it a bit better in this video.. also, it's meant to be fairly non offensive because i hope jw's can take a sneaky peak.
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MrMonroe
Just watching that makes me feel even more sorry for myself about how long I stayed in that pathetic lifestyle. Even when my family was pretending to go witnessing -- just turning up at the damn field service group to give the impression we were going on calls in order to keep the elders off our backs -- we sat through that excruciating meeting with all those losers.
It's so accurate in every detail it's just depressing. Thanks ... I think!
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Special Assembly: CO admits the grip is tightning.....
by yourmomma inwhat im about to post is the exact words from the co during the last talk of the most recent special assembly day.
even though im out i still try to keep up with what is being said just cause i find it interesting, and alot of stuff i find funny, but this stuff is starting to get scary, and i fear for my friends who are still in.
here are the exact words:.
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MrMonroe
It's difficult to know just how "official" this guy's comments were. I think we've all encountered Witnesses with a measure of seniority who tend to run off at the mouth with their own private interpretations. When I was first studying, an elder referred repeatedly to God using anti-matter after Armageddon to remove all the bodies and buildings. Others have similarly talked from the platform of their own wacky theories.
It's possible that, since no one else seems to have heard this comment at a convention, this guy was getting carried away with his own sense of self-grandeur. "Jehovah is USING me right now!" Speakers like that probably do it with the certain knowledge that people will be talking about HIS talk for months.
"Kingdom control" is a phrase the WTS would be trying very hard NOT to use. It's fascinating, and another indication of the bubble circuit and district overseers live in, but I don't think it indicates a trend. My view only, but many thanks for the recording.