Posts by MrMonroe

20

James Beverley's book on Penton's expulsion now on Abebooks

by MrMonroe in

"crisis of allegiance" is a slim, but excellent book written by a professor of religion on the events in lethbridge, alberta, around 1981, that led to the expulsion of jim penton, a jw who believed he was anointed but also happened to think the wts had some doctrines wrong.. it's a great read that ties in quite closely with the campaign to get rid of ray franz, showing the dirty tricks used by the society to rid themselves of someone who dared to question them.

penton was an academic who the society loved when he wrote a book on their human rights legal challenges ... but when he expanded his research and decided to do a book on their history, pow!

they began regarding him with great suspicion.

MrMonroe

"Crisis of Allegiance" is a slim, but excellent book written by a professor of religion on the events in Lethbridge, Alberta, around 1981, that led to the expulsion of Jim Penton, a JW who believed he was anointed but also happened to think the WTS had some doctrines wrong.

It's a great read that ties in quite closely with the campaign to get rid of Ray Franz, showing the dirty tricks used by the society to rid themselves of someone who dared to question them. Penton was an academic who the Society loved when he wrote a book on their human rights legal challenges ... but when he expanded his research and decided to do a book on their history, POW! They began regarding him with great suspicion. "Apocalypse Delayed" was the final product .... started while he was "in" and finished when he was "out".

"Crisis of Allegiance" is often quite hard to find. But I received an email alert today that it is now online through Abebooks. Highly recommended.

79

WT Flip-Flops on Jesus Inspection Was it in 1918 or 1919?... Did the WT PASS or FAIL?

by Alfred in

this is utterly ridiculous.... .

the more i research this particular subject, the more flip-flops i uncover.

it seems the fds cant even make up their minds regarding what happened in 1918 (or should i say 1919?).

MrMonroe

Much of Don Cameron's Captive of a Concept book deals with the problem of Jesus supposedly selecting the Bible Students when they were teaching as "truth" doctrines that were firmly rejected within a decade or two. They would say that Jesus saw past their failings and realised he could lead them to the truth. But why would he?

Cameron argues it thus: (p.23)

1. If Jesus did return in 1914, neither Russell nor Rutherford ever knew it. What are the chances that God would select such prominent men for his sole "channel of commuinication" but then never communicate to them that his Son had returned?

2. The title of the Watchtower magazine (the magazine that had already passed the test, remember!) included the words "and Herald of Christ's Presence." Yet according to what they teach today, Christ wasn't present when the magazine said he was! Why why would God choose a magazine as his channel that lied even in its title?

3. Since they believed Jesus had returned in 1874, it means they weren't watching for his return in 1914. Yet in Luke 12:37 Jesus said they would be "happy" only if "on arriving he found them watching for his return." But they weren't watching for his return in 1914 because they thought he'd returned 40 years earlier! In fact they were the only Christian denomination not waiting for his return.

4. Luke 12:36 says "At (Jesus') arriving and knocking they mat at once open to him. But if he arrived and started knocking in 1914, how long did he have to knock before they realised he'd turned up in 1914?

I wonder if they'd answer a Question From Readers on this one?

156

Victoria, Australia: Report on Oct. 11th hearing involving Steven Unthank

by AndersonsInfo in

victoria, australia: report on oct. 11th hearing involving steven unthank.

(this report is from an anonymous xjw who attended the hearing.

i had no plans to turn up to the court hearing as an observer, as in my experience, it can take several hearings and a number of months before any court case gets rolling.

MrMonroe

My question related specifically as to whether a conviction in the Magistrates Court would be newsworthy . . . as I suspect a discharge without conviction would barely cause a flutter.

As far as Steven has explained it, the case can't be decided in the Magistrates Court, but must go to the Supreme Court, but I'm really not sure of the process now to get it there! It may be as simple as the magistrate at the next hearing bumping it up there. But I would expect that a conviction would earn a few paragraphs in the Herald Sun or The Age. Then again, if it was all handled smoothly in court, it could go unreported. A lot of court cases take place every day and few of them are reported.

79

WT Flip-Flops on Jesus Inspection Was it in 1918 or 1919?... Did the WT PASS or FAIL?

by Alfred in

this is utterly ridiculous.... .

the more i research this particular subject, the more flip-flops i uncover.

it seems the fds cant even make up their minds regarding what happened in 1918 (or should i say 1919?).

MrMonroe

I encountered the same problem when I was writing material for the Wikipedia article on the FDS. There was an additional problem too, in that Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, (1959, page 22) claimed the Bible Students were "tested" and "found fit" in 1879 to run a campaign leading up to expected events in 1914! Who tested Russell then? How do we know? If he and his magazine passed the test in 1879, why did Jesus inspect all religions in 1918?

Here's the quote from that book:

"... in many ways the evidence was beginning to accumulate that, of all the early voices heard, Jehovah had chosen the publication we now call The Watchtower to be used as a channel through which to bring to the world of mankind a revelation of the divine will and, through the words revealed in its columns, to begin a division of the world's population into those who would do the divine will and those who would not. For this reason 1879 was a turning point in the work. This little group, headed by C.T. Russell, had now been tested and had been found fit to undertake the great preliminary campaign leading up to the climax expected in 1914."

156

Victoria, Australia: Report on Oct. 11th hearing involving Steven Unthank

by AndersonsInfo in

victoria, australia: report on oct. 11th hearing involving steven unthank.

(this report is from an anonymous xjw who attended the hearing.

i had no plans to turn up to the court hearing as an observer, as in my experience, it can take several hearings and a number of months before any court case gets rolling.

MrMonroe

BOTR, the case is unllikely to have come to the attention of any legal journals. It is still in its formative stage. It is certainly unusual in that an individual with no legal background has been permitted to launch a private prosecution. If the news coming via Barbara is reliable, the Department of Public Prosecutions is giving indications that it may take over. Hopefully it will develop.

Sizemik, The simple fact is that so far there is nothing for the mainstream media to report about this case. Once something happens (ie, a trial begins in the Supreme Court) then there is the possibility of coverage. Though the machinations of the WTS may be of interest to us, they don't excite the interest of newspaper editors.

156

Victoria, Australia: Report on Oct. 11th hearing involving Steven Unthank

by AndersonsInfo in

victoria, australia: report on oct. 11th hearing involving steven unthank.

(this report is from an anonymous xjw who attended the hearing.

i had no plans to turn up to the court hearing as an observer, as in my experience, it can take several hearings and a number of months before any court case gets rolling.

MrMonroe

If he gets the WTS of Australia to plead guilty, they'll be fined or discharged and that would satisfy the DPP. Wasn't the reason Steven named so many defendants so that they couldn't just slip out of the net? He has covered pretty well all the bases; he needs the organisation to be found guilty and change its ways; he doesn't need every defendant to be found guilty.

Defendants are often charged with numerous offences and in the end all but one charge is dropped as long as the state gets a conviction with a guilty plea on that one. What's to stop the DPP just saying, "Yeah, we'll drop all charges against all but one organisation as long as you plead guilty and save us all the grief."

156

Victoria, Australia: Report on Oct. 11th hearing involving Steven Unthank

by AndersonsInfo in

victoria, australia: report on oct. 11th hearing involving steven unthank.

(this report is from an anonymous xjw who attended the hearing.

i had no plans to turn up to the court hearing as an observer, as in my experience, it can take several hearings and a number of months before any court case gets rolling.

MrMonroe

As anyone who knows Vincent Toole will tell you, he is no dummy. He is a very sharp-minded man with an excellent memory. Anything he said, or told his junior to say, would be very carefully calculated. (As anyone who has crossed paths with him will also know, he carries grudges a long, long time.) Before we start saying he's dug a big hole, we have to acknowledge that he will have thought this one through and figured he knows how to beat the charge.

So here's the challenge: What will his defence strategy be?

Firstly, he'll be counting on very little of this getting into the media -- and because so far it's been itsy bitsy stuff in a small town magistrates court, he's safe at this point. He'll be counting on discussions about the nature of the FDS never being reported. If the case did make it to the Supreme Court, there would probably be no discussion in the media of what to them would be a very minor side issue; their stories would be about the religion and its leaders being charged.

Without those comments being in the public arena, the official injunction within the org will be "It's all just gossip and innuendo. Don't listen to that sort of talk."

It'll certainly be a poser for the court system, but I'd say he'll be pushing as hard as he can to get as many of the defendants struck off before there's a committal to the Supreme Court, leaving just the WTS.

So here's my best bet. He'll offer the following deal to the Director of Public Prosecutions, which may already be struggling to work out what the hell the FDS is and what its address is: The WTS of Australia will plead guilty, advising that its previous negligence had been based on an erroneous understanding of the law, and assuring the court that it understands its legal obligation and is now complying with the law. In exchange, it will ask that identical charges against all other entities be dropped. Simple. And there will be no need for discussion in a court in Melbourne (where media may be lurking) about what the FDS is. The DPP will take the easy road. Trials cost money.

There will then be a general acceptance within the organisation that the charge was the result of apostate trouble-making, that Jehovah's organisation was being targeted by Satan but that Satan had failed ... and that no one should discuss the issue; certainly criticism of the society would never be uttered by any Witness.

Vincent will have swallowed his pride (he, after all, was the one insisting in the media that they were NOT required to get WWC checks) and he will then bide his time until he can exact revenge on those who caused this problem in the first place.

19

When Did You Stop Saying Amen

by BroMac in

jw
friends

for prayers from the platform.. i've "said my own" for a few years now if i find i cant agree with what the brother is praying about.

i'm constantly amazed by the same old repetitive ramblings and just nonsense that some brothers feel is an acceptable way to pray for a congregation.. once i've finished saying my own i'll listen again to what they are going on about, and round and round they go.

the worse ones are those who can hardly speak english and i cant understand a word thats said apart from the "...feffull slive... bless bruders sis not here..." blah blah.. and everyone has gone through the public talk prayer.

MrMonroe

In the last few months, I guess. Weird thing was that sometimes at work if there was a small staff meeting I'd be half-expecting someone to say at the outset, "Well, first we'll just ask Jehovah's blessing ..."

What's that mean? It's a habit and nothing more. I doubt that anyone much listens to the prayers said from the platform. It's just a chance for the brother to give an example of how righteous he is, which is kind of what Jesus taught his followers NOT to do. Those droning prayers to close the DC were a prime example.

Prayers before meals were equally a sham. My kids ribbed me a year or so back about how all my pre-dinner prayers were always the same. But I just couldn't think of any way to vary them. Years ago I was at someone's place for dinner and we'd all had many beers before we ate. The guy whose place we were at picked me to "ask Jehovah's blessing" on the meal and I thought, "Hell, I'm half-pissed." The prayer was very incoherent, but I didn't want to make it too short. Since it was a pretty big gathering you have to turn it on a bit. They all said "Amen" to it, but I reckon most of them would have been wondering what the hell I was going on about and why I kept going round in circles. I felt pretty embarrassed.

53

JWs preparing for some "Special Top Secret Meeting" does anyone knows about this?

by Free!! in

jw
friends

i was talking to one of my jw ex-friends today (we keep in contact every once in a while) and she was all excited telling me about the new arregment, a special meeting only for elders, their wives, pioneers and other sheep of "exemplary" conduct... (of course she was invited)..... something about one meeting from bethel that is going to be broadcasted to everyone at assembly halls and translated via radio for those who cannot speak english... is by invitation only (and they are "being discreet w the invitations to avoid offend the ones not invited") and they even gave them tickets they have to present at the door..... anyone has the scoop??

?.

MrMonroe

Let's face it, they know how to make people feel special. They'll all feel so privileged to go and so encouraged after they've been. But life won't change a bit.

156

Victoria, Australia: Report on Oct. 11th hearing involving Steven Unthank

by AndersonsInfo in

victoria, australia: report on oct. 11th hearing involving steven unthank.

(this report is from an anonymous xjw who attended the hearing.

i had no plans to turn up to the court hearing as an observer, as in my experience, it can take several hearings and a number of months before any court case gets rolling.

MrMonroe

Diamondiiz, the answer is no. So far there have been only procedural hearings, setting dates and working out the way forward. There will be no transcripts.