Posts by notverylikely

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

The mind is what the mind is---which we do not yet fully grasp and, consequently is a singularity.

Backup...you provided the definition of a singularity as being unusual or remarkable. Simply not fully grasping how something works is not mentioned or referenced or alluded to in that definition. This is EXACTLY what I mean when I say you redefine words to suit your purpose.

Compared to all the things science does grasp and measure and find predictable it is remarkable and unusual.

That's highly subjective. Some would agree, some would not. Since you earlier said things had to be objectively agreed upon as true to create an objective reality that everyone can agree on, I am afraid you'll have to retract that.

FREE will---to be "free" must be free of nature itself--which it cannot be inasmuch as it is produced by nature.

You have yet to prove that or provide any evidence. In fact, on a macro scale, one could view uncertainty in nature as a low level macro version of free will that is primarily and observably manifest in intelligence and conciousness.

Why must free will be free of nature? Perhaps, if consciousness IS a singularity, then that's what's remarkable or unusual about it.

And, by the way--I am grateful you are here to set us straight.

So you agree with me then? I'm glad we settled that. Free will exists.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

Well, we can all be grateful we have you here to set us straight!

So....when you don't understand something and someone explains it, you choose to get all snarky? That would explain a lot. And actually, most people I've seen talking about it get it. So you're really just thanking me for setting you straight. And you're welcome, I am always happy to help.

The human mind exists in nature. It hasn't been predictable enough for us to apply "laws" of nature. To say that our minds DO NOT FOLLOW THE LAWS of nature is kind of silly, don't you think?

So, our mind follows the laws of nature yes you can't predictably apply them? Since we know that uncertainty and probability ARE laws of natures, I would totally agree with what you said. Free will at the conscious level is in no way precluded by any of this.

Seems like the burden is not on nature but on science to find the right way of plotting the chaos to make its result meaningful.

That's what they are doing. Why would you think they aren't? Is that what you are suggesting?

strangeness by virtue of being remarkable or unusual

Ah, so the mind must follow the laws of nature, but it is a singularity in nature in that it is remarkable or unusual? If I am understanding that correctly, then free will certainly would make it remarkable or unusual as compared with the largesse of the rest of observable nature.

16

Why did Jesus allow people to believe in falsehood? John 6:51, 52, 66

by jwusr in

why did jesus allow people to believe in falsehood?.

(john 6:51) 51 i am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that i shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.. 52 therefore the jews began contending with one another, saying: how can this man give us his flesh to eat?.

66 owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him.. .

notverylikely

We don't have any (not even one teeny widdle piece) original autograph scripture manuscripts to compare what originally was transmitted by way of Jesus or his teachings. We don't even have copies. We have assemblages of highly suspect (reworked and re-reworked) hearsay writings to go on that can in no way be verified (despite the pious assertions of people who earn their living by convincing us differently.)

Bingo.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

LOL - but remember: The WTS actually believes just that - Eve was fooled by Satan, but Adam was not.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

/I just love saying that.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

Probability, as far as I recall, requires a periodicity and repetition of events. Uncertainty refers to a determination of outcome which is not predictible.

Tossing a coin has predictibility because the outcome has a limit (heads OR tails) and the ratio of outcomes can be quantified to a certainty.

Uncertainty has no certainty. (duh).

I think the problem is that you don't understand probability and uncertainty in math and science. Uncertainty doesn't mean "we have no idea what the outcome will be". It's related to probablity in that there are a range of outcomes depending on conditions and we are UNCERTAIN which one it will be until some action is taken to observe it.

I must have blinked at the point where you established your Q.E.D.

Would you repeat that demonstration for me?

I didn't. You did. You said the human mind was adaptive and a singularity in nature. Since natural things have no choice but the follow the laws of nature, if the human mind is a singularity (generally defined in physics as a point in space time where the laws of physics as we know them break down, an undefined area, so to speak), our minds do not necessarily follow the laws of nature.

You did know what a singularity was, right? Or were you using some other definition that doesn't involve, math, randomness and physics?

I jealously guard contexts, definitions and applications inside my widdle head or else my bullshit detector goes off.

I call BS on that since you seem to freely change the definition of things whenever it suits you (the definition of free will, subjective, objective, probability and uncertainty just to name a few). If nothing else, te nosce.

Language is a very poor substitute for math in describing quantum effects. In fact, deceptive to the point of obfuscation.

Unless we can talk in symbols (which we cannot) this discussion (as far as physics is concerned) is doomed.

Only if you don't know what the terms mean or try to re-define them to mean something you understand. Again, you brought math and randomness into this. Now you want to back out of the discussion claiming language is the issue when in fact it's not.

16

Why did Jesus allow people to believe in falsehood? John 6:51, 52, 66

by jwusr in

why did jesus allow people to believe in falsehood?.

(john 6:51) 51 i am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that i shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.. 52 therefore the jews began contending with one another, saying: how can this man give us his flesh to eat?.

66 owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him.. .

notverylikely

Why did Jesus allow people to believe in falsehood?

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

Or if we saved the entire state of the universe, restored to a previous point, would quantum events happen exactly the way they did before. This is the key to determining if the universe is truly a deterministic machine.

Since there is no way to test that and for all practical ond observable purposes it IS random, we might as well call it that.

I have no hypothesis! Look at my Topic heading: CHOICE may be a mere illusion. The "may be" suggests a discussion is in order.

In that case I think we have proven that it is not a mere illusion. It is subtle and nuanced, but not an illusion.

What if my statement about a cancer cell was not that statement at all---but, rather a response to something else by way of making an entirely counter point? In such a case might I not have preceded the statement by including the quote I'm responding to?

Terry: Look at my last sentence. Is that a question or a rhetorical question?

Rhetorical question or not, it was the wrong one to be asking. What was the point you were trying to make with that?

Because, while genetically predisposed, we are learning minds with the ability to adapt our contexts. This adds a new layer to our predisposition.

What makes humanity a singularity in nature is the recursive nature of our thought-framing and contextualizing of our genetic predispositions.

The boulder that sits atop the mountain cannot learn nor can the smoke in a campfire nor the ocean when the moon is nigh.

So, we may have pre-dispositions (I prefer vanilla bean flavor, always have, regardless of any concious decision on my part) but sometimes I can decide to each chocolate instead? So there IS such a thing as a free will? You said human nature is what it is, but a singularity is where the known laws of nature break down and are undefined.

Of course, dolphins and dogs can also learn from experience.

I'm confused. You say free will may be an illusion on the one hand, but on the other that we can change our pre-dispositions.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

Are these actual CHOICES being made by the machine (software program)?

Define "choice". According to you there is no such thing, so I am not sure what you mean by this question.

I would proffer the comment that the ultimate value in life is to avoid checkmate (demise) as long as possible by weighting each move we make vis a vis alternatives.

Sometimes it is. Sometimes the guy in the foxhole jumps on the grenade, though.

BY OUR VERY IMPERFECTION and INABILITY we seemingly inject chaos into the heuristic programming OF weighting.

I suggest this may well be what appears in everyday life as DECISION MAKING FREE WILL.

In other words: What is "Free" is really inability to correctly assign weight. Thus, an arbitrary "decision".

That would suggest that, given two alternative, we might as well flip a coin as to whether an individual would decide to do something. Is that what you are suggesting? If it is, then there is no reason to suggest genetic pre-disposition is what guides us because you just said decisions are arbitrary and chaotic due to imperfection, random, if it were.

But you've also said that decisions are genetetically inevitable and can be seen in our proclivities. They can't both be chaotic and arbitrary and inevitable.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

Well, you force me to explain!

It was meant to be a reductio ad absurdum statement! I was reducing the argument to the absurd by suggesting a boulder could "decide" anything or make a "choice".

You say that like it's a bad thing.

That is why I followed the boulder with the rhetorical comment

So NOW, after all this, you say it's rhetorical?

So, maybe to make things simple and clear them up, can you state, without any rhetoric, your hypothesis?

A cancer cell, by destroying its host, in effect brings about its own demise which is identical to preventing itself from continuing. Does a cancer cell engage in a suicide decision by your reasoning?

A cancer cell is not a person with free will. It is a cell that is growing abnormally. Since it is has no consciouness, it can't decide to divide or not. Suggesting that a cancer cell engages in anything is assigning anthropoligical properties (in this case, consciousness) that it doesn't have. You are asking the the wrong question again.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

In the AWAKE! article a similar inference is being suggested vis a vis "Free Will."

I think we can both agree that WTS pubs quote mine and twist data all the time.