notverylikely

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Posts by notverylikely

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  61

  Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Atheist

  by BurnTheShips in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  please note that this list is intended to apply to the fundies alone.

  not to all nonbelievers.

  so let's turn the mirror and grab some popcorn:.

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  notverylikely

  However, no atheist has ever had the temerity to do this to Christians, have they?

  Madeline Murray-O'Hair or Michael Newdow anyone?

  Nope. You are confusing the ABSENCE of religion in law and government with forcing a belief system on someone.
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  124

  Stephen Hawking knows more about heaven than Jesus did.

  by moshe in

  1. social
  2. current

  i have been watching the discovery channel's, 'into the universe with stephen hawking' and it occurred to me that professor hawking knows more about heaven (which is just part of entire universe) than jesus did.

  maybe jesus knew about black holes, alien life, other worlds, the origin of the universe, etc.

  jesus could have told us something so remarkable about our universe that it would have taken us 2000 years to confirm jesus' divine knowledge and prove he was the son of g-d, but he instead decided to tell us that heaven "has many rooms"- whoop-dee-doo.. i don't think jesus had a clue that there was anything out the in the physical universe beyond what he could see with his own eyes.

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  notverylikely

  This is precisely why this sort of argument is nothing but a red herring. We can only address WHAT Jesus talked about.

  Ok. He delivered a confusing message that was almost word for word what Bablyonians were teaching 2000 years before he was born.

  Secondly, Jesus should not be faulted for not addressing every single topic imaginable. He had a specific mission, and the things that were written about Him were the things related to that specific mission (John 21:25).

  Talk about a red herring....no one is suggesting he should have, but rather that, if he were the all powerful son of an all powerful god he could have done better to prove that than by delivering a re-stated message that was at least 2000 years old.

  However, my point, which is based on Romans 1:18, is simple, even if Jesus had done what the OP wanted Him to do, the OP would still suppress it.

  That's not a point. It's conjecture.

  That statement was a great belly laugh for me. Jesus' message was utterly revolutionary for His time.

  It was written down at least 2000 years before he was born by Babylonians. Unless you don't beleive his message was the whole love your neighbor and your enemy part. Tell you what, when all you christians agree on exactly what the message was, get back to me and we can discuss. No seems to agree on what his message was, exactly.

  It was so revolutionary that it pissed off the Jewish religious leaders enough to have Him killed.

  Exactly. It wasnt orginal, it was about taking away their power. People tend to get killed by the people in power for that sort of thing which again, is nothing new (nor was it at the time.)

  Jesus' message was that trust in God was what is need in order to be declared righteous by God, and not feeble human works. This meesage was so revolutionary that within one generation Christianity had transformed the known world at that time, and still transforms people today.

  Well if that is the standard then Mohammed was also a revolutionary and must have been the son of god since his message transformed the entire world within a generation. Einstein too. Newton. Galileo....all taught something that utterly changed the world in short order.

  BTW, since nothing was even written about Jesus for about 70 years after he was hanging around, it's closer to 3 generations. I know match and facts are hard, so I try to make it easy for you.
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  124

  Stephen Hawking knows more about heaven than Jesus did.

  by moshe in

  1. social
  2. current

  i have been watching the discovery channel's, 'into the universe with stephen hawking' and it occurred to me that professor hawking knows more about heaven (which is just part of entire universe) than jesus did.

  maybe jesus knew about black holes, alien life, other worlds, the origin of the universe, etc.

  jesus could have told us something so remarkable about our universe that it would have taken us 2000 years to confirm jesus' divine knowledge and prove he was the son of g-d, but he instead decided to tell us that heaven "has many rooms"- whoop-dee-doo.. i don't think jesus had a clue that there was anything out the in the physical universe beyond what he could see with his own eyes.

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  notverylikely

  Are you saying he should have been teaching people about the universe and physics rather than theology because that would have been better proof he was a deity than anything else?

  If I didn't say it, then I am not saying it :)

  I'm just trying to figure out what the point is, not that you're incorrect in your facts. Where are we going with the facts?

  That Jesus could have, if he was in fact who he said he was using some of the infinite knowldge and wisdom he should have had that would lend creedence to his other messages.

  That teaching people about the universe would have done them more good than teaching them philosophies about universal brotherhood or human behavior?

  Again, I didn't say that, but since you suggested it, it wouldn't have hurt to teach along with his other messages (which, BTW, were also thousands of years old, also taught, almost word for word, by the Babylonians 2000 years before Jesus).

  I can't really say that Christ teaching people advanced physics would have done them good as a society.

  Why not? It's done us a world of good.

  I don't think Jesus of Nazereth had access to that knowledge and technology even available then, being a man born of that time and of average means, apparently, so how could he teach people things that a man in that situation would have no knowledge of?

  So he was just a man? I thought he was supposed to be the son of god, infinite in wisdom and knowledge. I mean, a water microscope can be made using a leaf and a drop of water. Surely he had access to those? Or maybe some medical advice? He did know how to cure leprosy and blindness...

  I'm not particularly convinced that Christ was a deity in the flesh, but I do think he was a great spiritual leader and teacher.

  Oh, ok. In that case, he wasn't orginal in anything he taught (other than the son of god part). He was a good re-packager at best.

  When you say "Teach them" I'm reminded of a story about some friends of mine who went to Africa in the Peace Corps back in the 60s.

  Your friends lied to you if they say that happened to them. Urban legend... http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/jelly.asp. Also, people knew 4000 years ago that sperm got a woman pregnant. And if your friends thought they did a good job....well, they weren't very smart.

  even when it was explained to them

  That's my point, it wasn't explained. They did a piss poor job at transferring knowledge. You don't get to blame the student for not grasping the material when the teacher is an idiot.

  So, even if a man with advanced knowledge comes along....how long would it take to get everyone up to speed, even if they believed what he was talking about? Would it be easier just to go with the current state of knowledge or try to bring it up about 200 centuries in a few years?

  Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Archimedes, Copernicus, Da Vinci....their contributions to science change the world from darkness to light with new knowledge that went against everything the world "knew" in just a few short years.
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  124

  Stephen Hawking knows more about heaven than Jesus did.

  by moshe in

  1. social
  2. current

  i have been watching the discovery channel's, 'into the universe with stephen hawking' and it occurred to me that professor hawking knows more about heaven (which is just part of entire universe) than jesus did.

  maybe jesus knew about black holes, alien life, other worlds, the origin of the universe, etc.

  jesus could have told us something so remarkable about our universe that it would have taken us 2000 years to confirm jesus' divine knowledge and prove he was the son of g-d, but he instead decided to tell us that heaven "has many rooms"- whoop-dee-doo.. i don't think jesus had a clue that there was anything out the in the physical universe beyond what he could see with his own eyes.

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  notverylikely

  But, how do you explain such things without first explaining that there IS a universe bigger than what a person can see with the naked eye?

  I suppose he could have drawn a picture or created a telescope. The technology certainly existed for that.

  Until Leevenhoek invented the first crude microscopes, did anyone know that it was tiny organisms unseen by the naked eye that caused disease?

  Good point, Jesus could have invented the telescope or microscope. I mean, the Antikythera device had been built about 100 -150 years earlier, the technology certainly existed. Water miscoscopes could have been easily made.

  The progression of knowledge happens in such a way that you can't leap over to concepts like "universe" at least, not in the present sense of the word without an awful lot of supporting concepts coming first.

  So teach them. That's how kids learn.

  One man saying, "Let me explain what the sun is to you." without people understanding what inflammable gases were as an underlying concept would be wasting his time, and then you'd have to demonstrate that something invisible exists, such as a gas, and you have to have the technology available to do that.

  So....Galileo did that in just a few years with EXTREMELY simple technology. Kids learn this all the time. Jesus should have been able to handle this. Proving the existence of a gas is as simple as making a simple battery and immersing the eletrodes in water (crude batteries were made long before this). Fire was a known concept, air blew all around them....everthing was there, all he had to do was connect the dots.
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  124

  Stephen Hawking knows more about heaven than Jesus did.

  by moshe in

  1. social
  2. current

  i have been watching the discovery channel's, 'into the universe with stephen hawking' and it occurred to me that professor hawking knows more about heaven (which is just part of entire universe) than jesus did.

  maybe jesus knew about black holes, alien life, other worlds, the origin of the universe, etc.

  jesus could have told us something so remarkable about our universe that it would have taken us 2000 years to confirm jesus' divine knowledge and prove he was the son of g-d, but he instead decided to tell us that heaven "has many rooms"- whoop-dee-doo.. i don't think jesus had a clue that there was anything out the in the physical universe beyond what he could see with his own eyes.

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  notverylikely

  I'm not sure you're taking into account how much technology has influenced our view of how the universe operates and how it's only been fairly recently in human history that we've had access to knowledge that we tend to take for granted.

  People in the time of Christ weren't any smarter than we are, not organically, but they hadn't the technology with which to observe the universe or know it as we do.

  We are talking about Jesus. He certainly should be able to know, and if he was God or the Son of God, figuring out how to explain it should be no problem.

  I mean, when you don't even have a clock or the concept of a timekeeping that keeps time any better than a sundial, how are you going to explain light speed to someone who doesn't have the concept of a second or a minute or even an hour because time wasn't kept by mechanical devices constructed for that purpose?

  That's not true at all. Water clocks were around by 4000 BC. Then there was the Antikythera device, constructed around 100 BC, a geared mechanism for calculating the postions of heavenly bodies based on a date entered into the device and could even take a leap year into account. They had the concepts, the knowledge and the technology to the degree needed.

  I mean, algebra then calculus to express higher mathematical concepts hadn't even been invented yet! You can't explain things to people who don't have the tools to get to the knowledge, which MUST come progressively.

  Integral calculus was being used as early as 1850 BC, Archimedes was using heuristical calculus 200 years before Jesus was born. The Bablyonians were using algebra 2000 years before Jesus.

  It's just too big of a cultural leap to expect people with primitive or no technology to understand things in modern terms.

  They were not nearly as primitive as you seem to think. They were much more "modern".

  Time, universe, physics, science....all pretty modern concepts that were either just in their infancy or didn't exist to people then.

  So? When presented with info, people are smart enough to understand it. Galileo, for example, pretty quickly changed the entire worlds view of the entire universe in just a few years.

  I mean, Jesus just could have said "x number of years from now a volcano name krakatoa will explode here" and drawn it on a map. People knew what maps, years and volcanoes were.
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  124

  Stephen Hawking knows more about heaven than Jesus did.

  by moshe in

  1. social
  2. current

  i have been watching the discovery channel's, 'into the universe with stephen hawking' and it occurred to me that professor hawking knows more about heaven (which is just part of entire universe) than jesus did.

  maybe jesus knew about black holes, alien life, other worlds, the origin of the universe, etc.

  jesus could have told us something so remarkable about our universe that it would have taken us 2000 years to confirm jesus' divine knowledge and prove he was the son of g-d, but he instead decided to tell us that heaven "has many rooms"- whoop-dee-doo.. i don't think jesus had a clue that there was anything out the in the physical universe beyond what he could see with his own eyes.

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  notverylikely

  Even if Jesus or any reasonably learned person of his time had known about the physical nature of the universe in such scientific terms, I doubt anyone in his time would have understood any explanation of it.

  That's what teaching is for. They didn't understand the stuff he was teaching anyway, for the most part.

  People in his time didn't even know about the existence of the Americas

  I think you mean the people in his lands. The people living in the Americas at that time certainly knew of it's existance. In fact, old Roman coins were found by early explorers of the Americas and there are records indicating the Vikings and Chinese were visiting, as we as theories that the Phonecians made it.

  They thought the planets and stars were gods, so explaining how the sun was a giant ball of intensely hot gases instead of Helios driving his chariot across the sky or the Divine placing a big light in the sky for humans would have probably gotten you some funny looks back then.

  Someone at some point had to be the first to teach the world. That's kind of a weak excuse...
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  124

  Stephen Hawking knows more about heaven than Jesus did.

  by moshe in

  1. social
  2. current

  i have been watching the discovery channel's, 'into the universe with stephen hawking' and it occurred to me that professor hawking knows more about heaven (which is just part of entire universe) than jesus did.

  maybe jesus knew about black holes, alien life, other worlds, the origin of the universe, etc.

  jesus could have told us something so remarkable about our universe that it would have taken us 2000 years to confirm jesus' divine knowledge and prove he was the son of g-d, but he instead decided to tell us that heaven "has many rooms"- whoop-dee-doo.. i don't think jesus had a clue that there was anything out the in the physical universe beyond what he could see with his own eyes.

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  notverylikely

  Really? How so? Tell me how you get to this conclusion? Oh, and please use little words, after all, I'm not as smart as you.

  Ok, logic might be a strong word...but...earlier you wrote:

  The funny thing about statements like the OP made is that even if Jesus had spoken about quantum physics, they would discount that too. After all, they would say, how could those illiterate fishermen, even comprehend a science that had not been discovered.

  You can' t have your cake and eat it too.

  So, you are saying that we would have our cake (Jesus talking about physics) and then claim the disciples wouldn't understand it (get to eat our cake).

  Since he didn't talk about physics, there is no cake to be had and since they didn't understand what he was saying about whatever it was he was talking about most of the time anyway, you get to eat no cake either.

  I know that's pulling together multiple concepts and used sciencey words like "physics" and "time", but i didn't have time to run it past a toddler to see they could grasp it for you.
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  6

  A Most Interesting Article...

  by AGuest in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as if "christians" really need more bad publicity (may you all have peace!)....

  http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/05/05/graham-v-obama-preachers-kid-knocks-president-over-islam-stan/?icid=main|main|dl1|link2|http%3a%2f%2fwww.politicsdaily.com%2f2010%2f05%2f05%2fgraham-v-obama-preachers-kid-knocks-president-over-islam-stan%2f.

  some interesting tidbits, in light of some recent posts here (bolding mine):.

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  notverylikely

  Oh, and we're done on the other thread, truly. Although you may wish people to believe that you've been left hanging, they know you weren't. I know you weren't. YOU know you weren't.

  I know. There is no answer that makes sense in the context of the examples in the Bible, that was what I wanted everyone to see. I do tend to get aggresive when debating, but it's never EVER personal. No hard feelings :)

  P.S. Shoot me a PM and I'll tell you some of those things you thought you knew about me :)
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  6

  A Most Interesting Article...

  by AGuest in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as if "christians" really need more bad publicity (may you all have peace!)....

  http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/05/05/graham-v-obama-preachers-kid-knocks-president-over-islam-stan/?icid=main|main|dl1|link2|http%3a%2f%2fwww.politicsdaily.com%2f2010%2f05%2f05%2fgraham-v-obama-preachers-kid-knocks-president-over-islam-stan%2f.

  some interesting tidbits, in light of some recent posts here (bolding mine):.

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  notverylikely

  Well look at that, Shelby, something we agree on :)
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  166

  Initial Analysis Of The Times Square Bombing Attempt

  by leavingwt in

  1. social
  2. current

  initial analysis of the times square bombing attempt.

  and so it is with target new york.

  it is entirely possible, nay likely, that the recent times square car bomb was placed at the doorstep of the viacom building's main northeast entrance because of the south park controversy.

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  notverylikely

  If it were not pervasive, they would not be in control of entire mideast nations and committing acts of terrorism and human rights violations practically daily.

  who are "they"? 99.999% of muslims don't do anything like that. who exactly are you talking about? and if the people there elect muslim leaders, who are you to say they can't do that?