This guy is awful. Has anyone even used the term "women's lib" since around the 1970's? I am pretty sure that the only place I heard that term growing up was at the KH and from my parents, warning about how evil it was. In reality, I never got the sense that the sisters were quite as submissive and genteel as things would be in Lett's fantasy land. With a few exceptions, it seemed like most of the sisters were more or less equals in everyday life. The brothers loved to puff themselves up with this macho head of the house nonsense, but few of them really backed it up. I mean, wherever we went on vacation was usually where my mom wanted to go, not where the "head of the house" decided, and I think it was the same way more often than not among other families I knew in the WTS.
Chaserious
JoinedPosts by Chaserious
-
60
New video: Stephen Lett warns about "Women's Lip"
by cedars inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=citaz613koc.
.
cedars.
-
-
-
27
Just Throwing Out The Idea Of A Class Action Suit Against The Watch Tower Corporations
by frankiespeakin ini think now that the governing body is in this big power grab in order to stay alive as an entity, thus tighten control, the more controling the more they open themselves up to legal consequences.. blood tranfusion forbiden by a authoritarian religous corporation.. disfellowshipping enforcement that brought pain and suffering thousands i'm sure these type of lawsuits could break them but i'm not well versed in law so i thought i would thow this out for discussion.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/class_action.
in law, a class action, a class suit, or a representative action is a form of lawsuit in which a large group of people collectively bring a claim to court and/or in which a class of defendants is being sued.
class actions are commonly referred to as class action suits; however, this phrase is redundant as the historical distinction between "actions" at law and "suits" in equity is no longer recognized.
-
-
Chaserious
I'm mostly a lurker, but this thread caught my attention since I'm in law school. So don't take what I'm saying as authority. I have seen this discussed before here, and I'm sure there are other threads where this is adequately explained. But I would agree with much of what diamondliz said in the first post. Of the payment methods she mentioned, class actions attorney fees are basically always paid on a contingency. When they get settled, the defendants put in money for the plaintiffs' atttorney fees in addition to settlement funds and it all gets approved by the court. So no firm or lawyer is going to take a case unless they think there is going to be a settlement. And the problem with class actions is that the class has to be certified by a judge before it can even be a class action - until then it's just an individual lawsuit, or a group of individual lawsuits. And the type of class action that is being suggested has little to no chance of being certified. First of all, the people in the class have to be similarly situated in terms of damages. As an example, think of people who are exposed to asbestos, or get overcharged on their cell phone bills, or take a medicine that harms them - common types of class action suits. Most of the people in those classes will have similar types of damages, or at least can be classified into two or three classes. (For example, those who die, those who get really sick, and those who get a little bit sick). But when you think of the WTS class some are suggesting, you couldn't throw into one class people who are claiming all the different kinds of harm that the WTS causes. Maybe if you had a bunch of sex abuse victims, but not people who were harmed by blood policy, DFing, education doctrines, etc. Not to minimize all of the horrible things they have caused, but think of a giant corporation like Walmart that lots of people hate for various reasons. You couldn't just have one huge lawsuit against them by all of the people who hate them. In fact, recently the Supreme Court wouldn't even let a gender discrimination class action proceed against Walmart, despite a lot of evidence that there was a pattern of harm in that particular area. Bottom line is that it's not easy to get a class action certified.
This also doesn't take into account the free exercise clause implications that a lot of people have already mentioned. WTS would be treated as a religion, and not as a regular corporation. At least in the U.S., courts don't like to decide what is a religion and what is not (if they did, they could potentially be in violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment). If it looks even remotely like a religion, that's how they will treat it. (In other words, in response to what diamondliz said immediately above, they are not going to treat WTS like a regular corporation, or treat baptism like a business contract). Unfortunately, a lot of religions do things that are potentially harmful to their members. The Amish don't educate their children past 8th grade (a practice the Supreme Court has said is okay, even if a state requires higher education of its children), the Mormons and others shun, and Native Americans take drugs that are potentially harmful as part of their worship. None of this is going to be subject to liability by American courts in the present time. As was mentioned, as society gets more secular, standards may change. Free Exercise only protects as much as the Supreme Court says it protects, so perhaps we will change the state of affairs in the future.
-
9
Chronicling the Highlights of Six Months Out
by Chaserious ini thought i would share a few highlights of my experiences over the last six months here, since i know you guys will understand, and i felt like organizing in writing a little.
this week marks 6 months being officially out of the wts, although it was about a year coming before that.
here are some of the things i have been able to do for the first time that i (and my wife in some cases) probably would not have been able to do otherwise!
-
-
Chaserious
There's a FaceBook page with names. locations. and skills of exjws. I'll try to find it.
Thanks for your comments everyone.
@jamiebowers- I never imagined there'd be such a facebook page. The only thing is, I'd feel kind of bad since I don't really have any discernible skills myself to offer in return! -
9
Chronicling the Highlights of Six Months Out
by Chaserious ini thought i would share a few highlights of my experiences over the last six months here, since i know you guys will understand, and i felt like organizing in writing a little.
this week marks 6 months being officially out of the wts, although it was about a year coming before that.
here are some of the things i have been able to do for the first time that i (and my wife in some cases) probably would not have been able to do otherwise!
-
-
Chaserious
I thought I would share a few highlights of my experiences over the last six months here, since I know you guys will understand, and I felt like organizing in writing a little. This week marks 6 months being officially out of the WTS, although it was about a year coming before that. Here are some of the things I have been able to do for the first time that I (and my wife in some cases) probably would not have been able to do otherwise! - Attended my first birthday party (our neighbor's daughter's 5th birthday!) - Started graduate school. I had that lined up before leaving, but still! - Joined a league softball team. - Joined a league adult kickball team! - Celebrated my birthday for the first time. I missed the first 27, but the 28th time was definitely a charm! - Associated with people from work outside of working hours (*Gasp* The horrors!) - Played beer pong at a party - My wife and I made a great team! - Stayed out until 2:00 with my wife and friends singing karaoke at a bar. No FS to wake up for the next morning! - Enjoyed every single beautiful summer weekend, not wasting even one by driving hours to a convention and staying in some overpriced, crappy hotel because it was on the WTS list. - Felt free for the first time! Granted, there have been some drawbacks also. I suppose I should mention them as well, to be fair. - I haven't spoken to my parents or sister, although I did leave a message once and send a text so they can't say I'm the one who cut them off. I let them know right upfront that my intention wasn't to cut off contact with them. My wife also has become estranged from her parents, one of her two brothers, and her nephew. - I have also lost my network of people to help me fix things. Since so many witnesses are in the trades, there was never a shortage of help if something went wrong with the house/car. Particularly my father-in-law used to be able to fix about anything for us. But on the bright side, it has made me learn to be a little more handy. I hung a new storm door and replaced a leaky pipe in the basement, projects I probably wouldn't have tackled alone before. =) - The last drawback I have to mention is not seeing a little girl my wife and I were very fond of from the congregation. We were good friends with her parents. They are a nice, generous and humble couple. But I had a several hour talk with the husband, and he is very much a WTS "company man". My wife especially had really looked forward to seeing the girl grow up, maybe eventually along with one of ours, and it's kind of sad. She was about 18 months old when we left. Anyway, overall it's been the best spring/summer of my life. I don't see any need for "deprogramming" or whatever. It seems to take care of itself. I've read Crisis of Conscience, and have no doubt of the destructive and intentionally controlling nature of the WTS organization. I haven't been a frequent poster here, because personally I don't feel the need to revisit the past often (though I understand why some do), but at this first milestone, I wanted to journal things a little. Thanks for reading! -
7
Big Deal California Case (Prop. 8) "Decided"...
by AGuest infor those who are interested (may you all have peace):.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/proposition-8-overturned_n_670739.h.
tml.
-
-
Chaserious
AGuest: Greetings back to you! Thanks for explaining your position. I'll mention that I agree with today's decision and would be more than happy to just let it be. The problem is however, that it is established law that state contitutions can give broader rights than the U.S. constitution, but cannot take away rights granted by the U.S. consitution. That is what the court today ruled the CA law was doing.
The right disagrees of course, because the U.S. constitution actually does not explicity say that "marriage is a fundamental right of all citizens subject to it" as you may have been led to believe. In fact, it does not make a single mention of marriage. So it's inevitable that this issue will find its way to the highest court because a large chunk of the population want gay marriage banned. The Supreme Court will settle it permanently, in my opinion by holding the same way as the California court. In my own opinion, that is a rare instance of the system working as it was designed to, and not a waste.
-
7
Big Deal California Case (Prop. 8) "Decided"...
by AGuest infor those who are interested (may you all have peace):.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/proposition-8-overturned_n_670739.h.
tml.
-
-
Chaserious
Obviously, gay marriage is a "hot-button" topic. But with all due respect, I don't understand your point about taxpayer dollars.
Being able to waste taxpayer dollars is clearly a key proficiecy needed to get into American politics, but I don't see where there is waste in this particular case. By courts hearing the case? We already have judges and justices and courts in place. They aren't paid by the case. One of very purposes of having the court system is to settle divisive issues in an amicable, non-violent manner, no?
-
11
Isn't going to Law School a no-no?
by Chaserious ini was reading some education-related threads on here and i'm curious about something.
i haven't been out too long, and while i was in, i was farsighted enough to get my college degree part-time at night.
i kind of knew i'd be out someday and would need it... anyway, since i've been out, i've been going to law school.
-
-
Chaserious
That's interesting, Starfish! There is a big difference between the U.S. and Europe however. In most of Europe, study of the law is a First Professional Degree, whereas in the U.S. one must first get a four-year bachelor's degree, and then a three year law degree, so at least 7 years of University education is needed to practice law, if attending full-time, and even more than 7 years if some of the attendance is part time.
So you can see why this is heavily frowned upon in the USA. The more years of education a person receives, the more likely they are to be able to think critically on their own. This is not desired for adherents, obviously. My wife was even discouraged from going to a 1-year program at a technical school and just "encouraged" to pioneer instead when she finished high school, so 7 years would have been "right out" in any of the congregations I attended.
-
11
Isn't going to Law School a no-no?
by Chaserious ini was reading some education-related threads on here and i'm curious about something.
i haven't been out too long, and while i was in, i was farsighted enough to get my college degree part-time at night.
i kind of knew i'd be out someday and would need it... anyway, since i've been out, i've been going to law school.
-
-
Chaserious
@scotinsw- I know! I think that and cringe every time I see her spelling. It's very unusual for individuals in law school to use chat speak like a fifteen year old girl!
I think in this case, it must be closest to what robson suggests. Regarding the earlier comments, I realize that the WTS incents some to become attorneys, but I know this girl was already a JW before starting law school, and I somehow doubt they are sending single 30-ish moms to law school. I was around the org for over 20 years and have only been away less than two, so I well know that there are plenty of R&F who don't follow everything to the letter. She must be doing it against advice from the elders. It's just that only a few years ago, most of the elders didn't even like that I was going for an undergrad degree. I know bodies of elders vary on their strictness as to education; if you find one where a couple of elders are college grads, they can be more lenient, so maybe that's what it is. I just thought maybe something changed recently on education; I haven't been keeping up on the literature much for two years or so.
But in my 20+ years, I don't recall ever knowing or even knowing OF an attorney who was a witness other than those working for the WTS. I hope the education this girl is getting will help her see things more objectively. The legal reasoning process is in many ways the antithesis of how witnesses are taught to think. In the org, you are taught that almost all important questions only have one correct answer- theirs. In law, the answer to almost everything is "it depends". In complex and serious legal questions, rather than learning that there is a right and wrong answer, it can be shown that a strong argument can be found on both sides given the same facts. Sort of like when the WTS uses a bunch of scriptures to support a teaching, then does an about face and uses a bunch of other scriptures to support the opposite view. :)
-
11
Isn't going to Law School a no-no?
by Chaserious ini was reading some education-related threads on here and i'm curious about something.
i haven't been out too long, and while i was in, i was farsighted enough to get my college degree part-time at night.
i kind of knew i'd be out someday and would need it... anyway, since i've been out, i've been going to law school.
-
-
Chaserious
I was reading some education-related threads on here and I'm curious about something. I haven't been out too long, and while I was in, I was farsighted enough to get my college degree part-time at night. I kind of knew I'd be out someday and would need it... Anyway, since I've been out, I've been going to law school. There is a late 20's single mom in some of my classes who is a JW. I haven't told her I'm an ex-JW, don't really see the need. But.... isn't graduate school still heavily frowned upon in JW-land? I thought at first that maybe she was on the fringes, but she's friended me on facebook, and routinely posts status updates like the ones I have quoted word for word here. (Yes, I had to quote them exactly... too funny not to)
" jus got home from a loooong day out in service!! It's therapy I tell you!!!!! And now for sum coffee n gud ol' book lernin ;-) !"
" awsome awsome awsome watchtower and bcuz of my stupid car I cudn go to meeting! :("
" my baby gave his first comment today!!! Yey!!!!! So proud of him! :)"
(end quotes) This would say to me that she's a legit JW right? So how can she get away with this? I am positive that just a couple of years ago if I announced I wanted to go to law school, the elders would have cornered me faster than a pack of dogs on a three legged cat and not been satisfied until they could talk me out of this ridiculous folly. Am I on point here, or missing something? Just curious.
-
54
For born ins- what tipped you off it was wrong
by teela(2) inat a young age i remember watching tv and commenting why is the red cross always helping people and we don't.
the second big one is if the witnesses only started up in 1890 - 1900 did jehovah not have anyone else doing the preaching work?.
as a child i don't think we think about theological problems so what tipped you off?
-
-
Chaserious
The lack of being able to question anything seriously. I always was very scientific-minded and felt like everything I believed had to be proven to me. While some aspects of the twisted logic made sense to my fourteen-year old mind, I couldn't accept, even at that age, that I couldn't draw my own conclusions and speak of them to others if they made more sense than what the Watchtower said. I also always seriously suspected that the creation/creator books were a bunch of pseudo-scientific hooey, even before I was sixteen. I did a lot of research into the claims of the human race being only 6,000 years old, and couldn't buy into that. I suppose these things could be true of other fundamental groups also, but these were the first indicators to me.