They hold onto the blood policy either because they still believe it or because they would lose so much credibility among current members if they dropped it. If they dropped the blood policy and made it a conscience matter, then what did all these people die for? It would be obvious even to many of the sincerely devoted that they died for a corporation. It wasn't as big of a deal dropping the organ transplant policy because there probably weren't nearly as many people affected as it was still in the early stages of effective organ transplant. Plus with the advances in modern medicine, there are lots of loopholes now where they can take "fractions", so there's less need than ever to drop the policy. They don't really have a substantial legal cost related to blood issues. I am not aware of the WTS paying settlements or verdicts related to followers who die due to the blood issue, so they have no incentive to drop it, even as a business decision. They don't care about those who die; it lets them have modern day "martyrs" to publish stories about.
Chaserious
JoinedPosts by Chaserious
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57
Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.
by Balaamsass inwithout fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.
more from national post staff.
calgary herald/fileslawrence hughes broke with the witnesses, and the rest of his own family, when it tried to prevent his teenage daughter, bethany, who died in 2002, from receiving a blood transfusion while being treated for cancer.twittergoogle+linkedinemailcommentsmoretumblrpinterestredditdiggfarkitstumbleuponfor years, the jehovahs witnesses fiercely held belief that blood transfusions are contrary to gods will led to emotional and very public disputes, hospitals clashing with parents over whether to infuse sick children.. that long history of messy legal confrontations appears to be vanishing, however, amid changing approaches to the issue on both sides, health-care officials say.. the churchs ban on accepting blood still stands, but some major pediatric hospitals have begun officially acknowledging the parents unorthodox beliefs, while many jehovahs witnesses are signing letters recognizing that doctors may sometimes feel obliged to transfuse, they say.. as institutions show more respect toward parents faith and try harder not to use blood, witnesses often seem eager to avoid involving child-welfare authorities to facilitate transfusions, and more accepting that canadian case law is firmly on the doctors side, some hospital officials say.. they get it that were going to transfuse where its medically necessary.
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New letter RE public witnessing.. omg they are setting up stands!!!
by BigE inthis link contains news of a letter sent to the elders about witnesses setting up stands to peddle literature in public places!
how desperate are they?
it sounds sad honestly... and they are told not to argue with apostates .
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Chaserious
I passed by tables set up in both Port Authority Terminal and Grand Central in NYC this past summer. In Grand Central, they always had the same spot in the subway tunnels with a table in the long corridor between the Shuttle train and the main 4/5/6/7 area. I almost never saw anyone talking to them. There were usually 2-4 witnesses there chit chatting with each other, with no attempt to get anyone's attention passing by. Not that it probably would have mattered; NY commuters are used to ignoring unwanted attention seekers. I thought to myself that it seemed like a pretty easy way to count time. I think they went in the corridor because it would have been even more undignifed to set up shop in the main Grand Central subway hub among the people singing, break dancing and playing the flute or whatever for change. I never bothered trying to talk to them, but maybe sometime I will.
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Long Term Effect of Conti & Similar Cases?
by Chaserious ini was commenting in another thread this morning and saw speculation that the conti verdict will hasten the wts' decline, beyond just the money they may have to pay in that case itself.
i have seen this mentioned a number of times and it got me thinking and doing a bit of research.
i think the speculation and hope is that it will give rise to similar lawsuits which will meet with similar success.
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Chaserious
The very act of calling Bethel Legal first imposes greater liability on the WT for future actions.
I think that this is a business decision they've made. They're willing to accept potential greater liability for the actions of these elders in exchange for avoiding the PR risk of having some elder "going rogue" and needlessly giving the org bad press or causing a stir in the congregation (you know, actually "protecting" the flock by warning them). Additionally, by having explicit instructions, it actually could protect them from liability in the event that an elder doesn't follow the instructions. They would then say whatever happened was outside the scope of the elder's duty as a WTS elder.
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Long Term Effect of Conti & Similar Cases?
by Chaserious ini was commenting in another thread this morning and saw speculation that the conti verdict will hasten the wts' decline, beyond just the money they may have to pay in that case itself.
i have seen this mentioned a number of times and it got me thinking and doing a bit of research.
i think the speculation and hope is that it will give rise to similar lawsuits which will meet with similar success.
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Chaserious
I think you'll understand when I say I hope I'm right and you're wrong. *giggling*
Well, I wouldn't mind too much being wrong about this one thing. =)
I'm just afraid this case is going to be an anomaly, both in terms of the generosity of the jury and the specifics of what happened. It terms of precedent, right now it's still up in the air. If the WTS happens to win on appeal, it would give them legal ammunition to get out of these cases at the dismissal stage in the future, preventing a jury (at least in CA) from ever sticking it to them again.
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Long Term Effect of Conti & Similar Cases?
by Chaserious ini was commenting in another thread this morning and saw speculation that the conti verdict will hasten the wts' decline, beyond just the money they may have to pay in that case itself.
i have seen this mentioned a number of times and it got me thinking and doing a bit of research.
i think the speculation and hope is that it will give rise to similar lawsuits which will meet with similar success.
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Chaserious
I totally agree with the moral culpability in this type of case. So much for "protecting the flock". It's more like protecting the corporation. I was questioning whether there would be a significant direct effect, either in terms of lawsuit payments or declining attendance, and I suspect that there just won't be. If anything, I suspect the effect will be long-term in nature, as this type of thing gets media coverage and makes it harder for publishers to bury their heads in the sand and ignore all but what WTS tells them.
NeverKnew - I do agree that they want to shift some liability from the WTS to individual elders. I hope if this happens, some of them open their eyes. But plenty of them will just call it persecution for Jehovah's name if they have to incur personal liability, go broke, delcare bankruptcy and the like. I knew one elder who sustained a serious injury working parking at an assembly when some idiot ran over his leg. He had no health insurance and the policies on his own car insurance and that of the person who hit him weren't enough to cover his medical bills, and he ended up having to sell his house to pay his medical bills and survive. He would rather lose everything then file a lawsuit over it. Bit of a different situation, but still...
I do however, disagree the Conti case somehow sets a precedent that the WTS is on the hook (legally) for any abuse by a MS, or rank and file member, if that's what you are implying. First of all, if the verdict gets upheld (which is no slam dunk), it only sets legal precedent in California. Second, the case isn't a matter of vicarious liability against the WTS (in other words, automatic liability for its adherent's actions, such as exists in the employer/employee context). The WTS had to be found liable for its own acts, which were in connection with the 1989 letter and the elders knowing about the abuser prior to the time he abused Candace. For the reasons discussed in this thread, I think that even if the verdict sticks, to duplicate it you would need a very similar set of facts which is not going to exist in all abuse cases, most notably being that the abuse would have had to take place before the implementation of their legally slick, morally shameful new policy.
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Long Term Effect of Conti & Similar Cases?
by Chaserious ini was commenting in another thread this morning and saw speculation that the conti verdict will hasten the wts' decline, beyond just the money they may have to pay in that case itself.
i have seen this mentioned a number of times and it got me thinking and doing a bit of research.
i think the speculation and hope is that it will give rise to similar lawsuits which will meet with similar success.
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Chaserious
Fed-up: I imagine it's unlikely because if the elders follow the directions and call WT immediately, I would think they are put right through to a lawyer or get a call back within hours, and if they have a legal duty to report are told to contact the police as soon as hanging up with legal. This would seem to take minutes or hours; not a lot of time for more molestation to take place. This involves a bit of speculation, but since money is on the line I would bet legal moves very quickly on these phone calls, don't you think?
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Long Term Effect of Conti & Similar Cases?
by Chaserious ini was commenting in another thread this morning and saw speculation that the conti verdict will hasten the wts' decline, beyond just the money they may have to pay in that case itself.
i have seen this mentioned a number of times and it got me thinking and doing a bit of research.
i think the speculation and hope is that it will give rise to similar lawsuits which will meet with similar success.
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Chaserious
My take on the replacement letter is that it's designed to shield them from liability. If they find out about child abuse, they call legal "immediately" according to the directions, and legal tells them whether they have to report it or not. If they do have to report, they will do so and thus be shielded from liability, and if they don't have to report based on state law, they can't be held liable for failure to do so in that state. As long as legal gives them accurate advice, it should make them legally bulletproof on the reporting front, except maybe in the unlikely scenario that someone is molested in the interim while they are getting legal advice. Regarding the warrant/subpoena issue, anyone is entitled to call their lawyer before complying with a subpoena. Same thing with a search warrant. They are advised not to physically stop officers with a search warrant, but to otherwise object to a search and call legal. Similarly, anyone in the U.S. has a right to refuse to consent to a warrantless search and to seek legal advice. No court can allow liability to be imposed for exercising one's legal rights.
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Long Term Effect of Conti & Similar Cases?
by Chaserious ini was commenting in another thread this morning and saw speculation that the conti verdict will hasten the wts' decline, beyond just the money they may have to pay in that case itself.
i have seen this mentioned a number of times and it got me thinking and doing a bit of research.
i think the speculation and hope is that it will give rise to similar lawsuits which will meet with similar success.
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Chaserious
jgnat - I think it's possible they might see some decreased attendance. But I think the average JW is going to dismiss it and say that there are always going to be a few bad JWs here and there, and this is just the attempt of some money-hungry lawyer who is trying to make the poor WTS pay for what some regular publisher did. The average JW doesn't know anything about what is lacking in their child abuse policies. This is where their lack of transparency actually benefits the WTS. Unlike Catholics, most JWs don't go to outside media sources to get news about the WTS, so they go blissfully forward thinking there is no problem.
Also, you are right about no transparency and no apology, but unfortunately you can't be forced to pay money on that account. I think on the part of the Catholic Church they did those for PR reasons. WTS doesn't need to use PR since they give out PR to their own members internally and forbid reading of outside negative coverage about JWs. As far as changes, haven't they made some? I thought the smoking gun in the Conti case was the 1989 letter to elders about keeping abuse hush-hush, which has since been replaced/retracted?
Edit: wha happened beat me to it about the typical JW response.
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Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.
by Balaamsass inwithout fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.
more from national post staff.
calgary herald/fileslawrence hughes broke with the witnesses, and the rest of his own family, when it tried to prevent his teenage daughter, bethany, who died in 2002, from receiving a blood transfusion while being treated for cancer.twittergoogle+linkedinemailcommentsmoretumblrpinterestredditdiggfarkitstumbleuponfor years, the jehovahs witnesses fiercely held belief that blood transfusions are contrary to gods will led to emotional and very public disputes, hospitals clashing with parents over whether to infuse sick children.. that long history of messy legal confrontations appears to be vanishing, however, amid changing approaches to the issue on both sides, health-care officials say.. the churchs ban on accepting blood still stands, but some major pediatric hospitals have begun officially acknowledging the parents unorthodox beliefs, while many jehovahs witnesses are signing letters recognizing that doctors may sometimes feel obliged to transfuse, they say.. as institutions show more respect toward parents faith and try harder not to use blood, witnesses often seem eager to avoid involving child-welfare authorities to facilitate transfusions, and more accepting that canadian case law is firmly on the doctors side, some hospital officials say.. they get it that were going to transfuse where its medically necessary.
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Chaserious
I don't think they're dropping the blood ban, they are just signing forms that basically say "We don't want you do give my kid blood, but if it was serious enough where you would otherwise go to court, just do the blood instead of taking us to court; we know we would lose in court anyway." It's a loophole. Also, I think this is only for minors. Competent adults still have to die instead of taking blood if it comes down to it.
Also - if they did change the blood policy they would face no legal liability in the U.S. Moral outrage, I would have to think, is another story.
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Will the Watchtowers growth in the third world keep them around for decades to come?
by tootired2care ini suspect the wt is going to continue to see slowing growth in all western lands as time goes on.
it seems to me though that there is so many potential suckers out there in the third world that will keep coming into the wt because of lack of internet, education or falling victim to love bombing as many of us did here at one time.
i think it's going to get really tough for them as the western land money dries up though.
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Chaserious
Cedars - Very interesting observations. I hope "the retreat" happens to completion in our lifetime as well.
I have a couple of observations - Somehow I don't think they will let Africa (or anywhere else) be a drain on them. They know how to run a business and no business lets one subsidiary be a constant albatross on the neck the parent company. I suspect if they see continued growth and not a corresponding increase in $$$ on the horizon, they will address it. They could do it by more localized printing, where I imagine the cost is less than shipping in literature. They could also take steps to restrict growth there, like discontinuing missionaries in very poor areas, etc. I know they love their publisher increases, but I think they would sacrifice some of it in favor of profitability.
The other thing is that I really don't see the Conti case hurting them much beyond that case itself. I don't see a host of additional victims waiting in the woodwork to come out if this verdict is upheld. Also, I don't think that every cases is going to go nearly as well for the plaintiffs. As I started to look into this, I had some other thoughts, so I decided to start a new topic since it's not really on topic here: