Posts by joelbear

5

JWs: They Don't Make 'Em Like They Used To

by Room 215 in

jw
friends

one thought for long-time dubs..... the wts's interminable bragging about their ``spiritual paradise'' and ``nation of ministers'' aside, there are signs that the leadership is hip to the flagging commitment on the part of the rank and file.

notice how the summer district conventions have shrunk over the years.

what would the attendance figures would look like if the gb tried to revive the old practice of eight-day assemblies, with sessions lasting until 9:00 p.m. every day?

joelbear

They definitely seem to have a gauge on just how much people will put up with. My bet is that similar to a large corporate marketing department, the Watchtower does some pretty hefty amounts of statistical analysis to determine how to keep the highest number of witnesses active and selling their materials.

I am sure they keep up with the rise and fall of attendance and placement numbers based on certain types of information in the WT and KM and also on the rules and regulations that are emphasized.

I can't imagine witnesses going to 8 day 12 hour a day assemblies or even 3 day circuit assemblies. They claim they have changed this because of the hardships on people now. I think it was harder 20 years ago when people has less vacation and companies were much less sensitive to personal and religious issues.

hugs

Joel

14

should I Respond to judgment panel after 14 years?

by sennabrasil94 in

jw
friends

it's been 14 years since i was anathmatised at 17 years of age, i was never baptised but they still marked me as dissaproved asociation,it had the same effect as being dissfellowshiped.

this tore my family apart i was satan's child acording to my stepfather want-a-be.

the elders suggested that because i was haveing sexual relations with worldy girls and drinking that it would lead to drug addition jail and homosexuality and destruction at armageton.

joelbear

Senna,

First of all, big hugs. I know the pain you feel.

I doubt that confronting them would change their minds at all. But if you felt that the catharsis would do you good, then, tell them how you feel.

I hope you can recreate a family for yourself and move on somewhat. I know it is hard to do so. I think you will find that the recklessness just adds to your unhappiness. I went down the path of self destruction myself, drinking heavily and driving, hoping I would just die out there somewhere. I no longer drink and while I still have bad times, I don't stay down as long as I did when I was drinking.

Find just one good friend to rely on as a start.

again, BIG HUGS and best wishes

Joel

14

"Vindication," New Light

by Maximus in

jw
friends

need some help.. growing up, i was ceaselessly taught that everything jws do in preaching is because of "the issue.

" the issue is the "vindication" of jehovah's name.. at some point the publications ceased this teaching, with an almost casual watchtower reference to the fact that 'obviously jehovah's name does not need to be vindicated.

' keen students were surprised that no major article appeared to lay out this change.. i don't have the tools to follow this up, so could i impose on someone to fill me in with citations?

joelbear

i like the popery with blue flowers in it.

but seriously folks,

I always understood the issue was Jehovah's "right to rule", he created us, he has the right to rule us as he sees fit and his ways are always correct.

Adam and Eve rebelled against this concept, wanting to see for themselves and decide for themselves what was good and what was bad.

Satan upped the anty with Job, saying that people only did what god wanted them to do for the reward involved, not because he really had a right to rule them.

Jehovah's servants through the ages supposedly proved he has this right by obeying him simply because he was god, not because of any reward of punishment. Of course, reward and/or punishment were always in play, the flood, leprosy for Miriam, manna turning into worms, earth swallowing people, victories or defeats in wars, etc. etc. etc., so its hard to distinguish just who served god because they wanted to and who served him for reward or avoidance of punishment.

I doubt that most witnesses today see their behavior as taking a position on one side of the other of this argument. Most, I would wager, say, they serve god because they want to live in the new system. Even You Know and other's constant obsession with "the end" proves that its the ripe reward that keeps them going, not the innate "rightness" of god's be able to rule their lives.

snugs

Joel

15

regret my "former" life as a Witness

by Richie in

jw
friends

disassociating yourself slowly or quickly is a matter of perspective; think about it: you lose either way, i.e.

the witnesses will treat you like you've become part of the "bodysnatchers" of the world and no matter how you rationalize it, there is no honorable way out in the eyes of the witnesses.. i was df'd about 1.5 years ago (as they said that i left the organization so it was entirely my fault, but little do they know that their organization left me, as i appealed the gb's decision), and the sudden break-off of family and friends in the truth is always devastating to say the least - it's an emotional explosion which in your wildest dreams would normally never ever happen....i can now understand what death means, at least in the beginning....yes i was dead though living - even though when i went back to the meetings afterwards, i could feel the lonely emptiness, the non-existence of myself.

yet when by accident i would be gazing straight into the eyes of one of my (former) friends, he would just stare past me as if i didn't exist at all even though i attempted to smile at him in indicating respect to him....how convenient for them to ignore a fellow friend and instead make me feel like the lowest person on earth - but then..of course they were taught to respond in this manner to anyone who is df'd.... then i though to myself...what would happen when eventually i would be re-instated: yes, then after the announcement most would want to see me at the end of the meeting all happy and oh so loving and wanting to be my best friend all over again - in a heartbeat they'll change from zombies to angelic like mortal creatures of love.... for this very reason i cannot return to the meetings in the hope of wanting to be re-instated and have this hypocrisy again heaped upon me like tentacles.

joelbear

Hugs to you and to anyone here who is DA'd or DF'd.

Being disfellowshipped is like going through a personal holocaust. I can only compare it to someone who loses their entire family in a house fire or natural disaster. In fact, it is even worse, because the people you love aren't dead, they are alive, not unresponsive to your needs for love and attention from them.

It has been 13 years since I was disfellowshipped and the wounds have not healed. Most days I am able to live a fairly normal life. I have a partner and friends and a good job and a nice home. But sometimes, like last week, I go into severely depressed dark places where only death seems like an escape for the utter horror of knowing that so many people I love will never even speak to me again.

I can only hope that seeing here and other places on the web how many lives have been devastated by this practice, that maybe (and I know its a long shot), but just maybe the Watchtower Society will stop this horrible horrible ungodly and unhumane psychological torture.

hugs

Joel

2

Own an Isuzu Rodeo? WARNING!

by Bendrr in

jw
friends

just thought i'd share this, in case anyone here owns an isuzu rodeo with 4-wheel drive.. one came in the shop today and the owner wanted us to check the cv boots on the front axles.

i checked it out and it needed both.. wayne (my manager) sold the job and came out to tell me.

with a big smile on his face.

joelbear

I have several fantasies involving mechanics.

hee hee

lube job hugs

Joel

10

Brother Salda

by teejay in

jw
friends

the last memorial service/funeral i went to at a kingdom hall was for brother salda (his real name).

funny, but i can't think of his first name (his wife's name is eileen); as for him, i only remember "brother salda.".

brother salda was a very intelligent man, but not a very good dub.

joelbear

Teejay,

HUGS. What a wonderful post. What a wonderful reminder to me to remember the witnesses I loved as people.

Its hard for me to separate sometimes the hatred I have for the false doctrines and ludicrous policies from the people that I knew.

I loved more of them than I didn't. I miss many of them more than they will ever know.

hugs

Joel

31

No Moral Absolutes?

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

hi gang,.

those who claim that morality is subjective have painted themselves into a corner.

how about this, kent, big jim, seeker, a.f., j.h., troglodyte trilobyte, hippo the dippo, lisa baby, mulan, ldh, boynenko, et al?.

joelbear

Morality is pretty simple.

Don't hurt others. I think this is a natural form of morality and I think that is why we inherently know through our conscience what we shouldn't do to others.

However, man has perverted this natural sense of unity and morality by introducing millions of manmade moral rules that fit group, country, cultural agendas. This confuses the issue.

Jesus said it best at Matthew 7:12. Too bad we can't just chunk the rest of the Bible, this scripture is the only one we really need.

hugs

Joel

2

Today's brief JW encounter

by joelbear in

jw
friends

so mitch and i are out shopping and we come to the target superstore parking lot and we stop to wait for a car to pull out which is close to the store.

so, this car comes from the other direction and swoops in and edges us out of the space.

the guy driving just looks at me, like "tough, i got the space.

joelbear

So Mitch and I are out shopping and we come to the Target superstore parking lot and we stop to wait for a car to pull out which is close to the store.

So, this car comes from the other direction and swoops in and edges us out of the space. The guy driving just looks at me, like "Tough, I got the space." So we see that the space right beside him is also going to open up, so we drive around and wait for it and get it and the other guy is sitting there looking at us, like uh oh, cuz he knows he screwed us out of the other space.

The family gets out and are all dressed up in suits and ties and I say to Mitch, I bet you they are JW's. The father just struts by us with his nose in the air, very haughty. We wait for them to go inside and I peek in the front of the van. Sure enough, there lies a Kingdom song book and a Watchtower.

Random occurrence. JW's would of course whine, oh we are all imperfect.

JW's are, if anything ruder to their fellow humans than non-JWs.

Thanks, I just had to vent.

hugs

Joel

8

Disfellowshipping on Trial

by joelbear in

jw
friends

the issue of the responsibility of elders in jehovah's witness congregations is under discussion on several threads currently.. what i really believe should be on trial here is the whole idea of a group of men being set up to make such extremely serious decisions regarding the lives of others.. by discouraging the use of professionals to assist in psychological matters, family matters, and most seriously matters of abuse, the watchtower society brings much responsibility for its actions and their affects onto itself.. tattoogirl addresses this on another thread.

can men judge men?

can janitors and laborers and accountants help an abused woman or child by reading them a few scriptures?.

joelbear

The issue of the responsibility of elders in Jehovah's Witness congregations is under discussion on several threads currently.

What I really believe should be on trial here is the whole idea of a group of men being set up to make such extremely serious decisions regarding the lives of others.

By discouraging the use of professionals to assist in psychological matters, family matters, and most seriously matters of abuse, the Watchtower society brings much responsibility for its actions and their affects onto itself.

Tattoogirl addresses this on another thread. Can men judge men? Can janitors and laborers and accountants help an abused woman or child by reading them a few scriptures?

Can any 3 or 6 or 9 or 1000 men look at me or anyone and sum up all of our life experiences, all the things we have been through, our physical, genetic, chemical, mental and emotional make up and render a decision that has severe psychological affects?

This is by far the most serious offense of the Watchtower organization. By placing itself and the need for reconciliation with a human congregation above direct repentence before god and seeking his forgiveness and his forgiveness alone, it disavows the Biblical teaching of Christ's sacrifice.

It adds definitions and descriptions to sin and makes confession to men a condition of forgiveness and salvation. In doing so, it negates the entire construct of salvation through Christ. Salvation through approaching god and god alone. It is the most reprehensible thing anyone or any group could do. It supplants god and Christ.

It disgusts me utterly. The hurt it has caused is irreparable.

peace

Joel

113

Silentlambs and Signifiers that Signify Nothing

by dunsscot in

call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.

that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.

i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.

joelbear

There is a lot of pontificating on both sides of this issue here.

Dunscott makes the following statement:

Can someone at least say approximately how many people have come forth, without revealing identities? Is it 100 or 200 or 1000 persons? Even these numbers would be small in relation to the number of Witnesses who abhor the practice of child molestation, and refuse to practice it.

This statement goes back to the, Witnesses are just imperfect people argument. An argument that I find ludicrous. If only 1000 small children's lives were ruined, this is made up for by the fact that millions of witnesses would not have molested them? How is this different from any other organization, not claiming to be God's one source of truth and ark of salvation.

On the other hand, people who come out and say Leo Greenlees was a child molester and are not willing to do so publicly are simply cowards. It is very easy to spread information about someone else when there is no recompense for the false accusation. It does seem pretty clear that he was a homosexual. A person who is forced to suppress his homosexuality for decades, I believe is prone to turning to pedophilia as an outlet because he feels somewhat safe that he can bully the child into secrecy. A secrecy that is necessary to upholding his own secret identity. Heterosexuals will never understand the mental pressure and self subjugation this requires and what toll it takes.

However, I do not excuse pedophilia under any circumstance. It is simply vile. I do however, also condemn a system where homosexuals must sublimate their sexuality. Of course, I would recommend that all homosexual witnesses leave the organization immediately for their own mental health.

Accusers of others must be prepared to come forward publicly and produce evidence. If not, anyone with a personal vendetta against another person could just come out and say that that person molested them.

I was alone with young boys and girls many times during my years as a publisher, pioneer and bethelite. Kids always liked me because I was silly and liked to tell them stories and play games with them. If one of those people today became angered because they saw that I was now an exJW or was angered that I was an "out" homosexual, they could make an accusation that I would not be able to defend myself against. Should I be reported to the police based on one person's testimony? Should my life be forever irrevocably ruined because of this? This seems to be what some are arguing for here. If not, please correct me.

Proven child molesters deserve death. Its a serious charge. It should be considered seriously.

Joel