for those who have been jws and left,.
1. how much did you delay your departure due to the fear of being shunned?.
2. what percentage of the congregation would you estimate remains active due to the fear of being shuned if they were to leave?.
I left right away after I'd simply had enough. I had no WT relatives, only in-laws. Personally, I don't recommend fading or even hiding your disbelief while pretending to be a Witness. I think it's better to cut the cord and get it over with so you can start rebuilding your life. In the long run, I think you're better off. But then, I've never been close to my family. Perhaps I would feel differently if I was.
IsaacJ
ill start it.. "the spirit annointed brotherhood".
"the world" and "worldly"
"faithful and discrete slave" and "the slave class" (which is ironically the ruling class)
"home but hiding"
henry ford's philosophy and jehovah's witnesses.. http://originalartstudio.blogspot.com/2010/05/henry-fords-philosophy-and-jehovahs.html.
bangalore.
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I noticed this as well. It's a wonderful little engine for the Society. They drive demand and supply in synchronicity.
The assemblies are a big part of it. Witnesses go the assemblies, always hoping for some new literature. When I was a Witness, that was the high light of every convention as everything else is pretty much more of the same. Then the announcement comes that some new book or tract is available, and you HAVE to get your copy to be ready for the impending book study.
In theory, the literature is free, but as you know, you're expected to donate for it. A really good Witness donates enough for someone else to get a free copy too, in theory. Then you end up giving the literature out in field service. If someone takes it, you're expected to get a donation OR to donate for it yourself so the Society doesn't suffer a loss. They are a very poor billion dollar company. ;-)
One day, another book will come out. It'll have pretty much the same content. But you'll buy it too. On and on it goes.
The Witnesses are the Society's best, most loyal customers.
If only Publisher's Clearing House had such a perfect system...
IsaacJ
this has happened to me on more than one occasion.
a jw suddenly notices you at the hall and asks to work with you.
this continues for a while and then you are dropped.
I used to live within 5 miles of my old Kingdom Hall. I kept getting visits from people who barely even mentioned anything about the Society after I quit going to meetings. It was always as they were on their way to or from field service. This went on for a couple of years after I'd stop going. Most of them didn't bother trying to "re"convert me, so it seemed fairly obvious what their motives were. Once, a car group of teenagers came over and actually admitted they were just there to keep their time going. Like I had nothing else to do.
IsaacJ
john loftus:.
what must be the case if christianity is true?.
that the highest created being, known as satan or the devil, led an angelic rebellion against an omnipotent omniscient omnibenelovent omnipresent god, and expected to win--which makes satan out to be pure evil and dumber than a box of rocks.. .
I always do get a kick ar humanity trying to "figure out" God.
Why wouldn't Satan rebel? he has free will like everyone else.
We rebel and we are "nothing", at least as an "angel" Satan has SOME measure of power greater than ours, supposedly.
Satan didn't rebel against God, he rebeled against US and is proving to God he was right about Us.
Not trying to be a wiseguy or anything, but I disagree with what Psacramento said above. The first issue -- why WOULDN'T Satan rebel? -- gets really circular real fast. I could ask, "Why WOULD Satan rebel unless he wanted something God wasn't providing? Why was he designed by God with the capacity to want things God didn't want him to have? Especially considering the outcome, which was imperfection and death." This is one reason people (atheists like me, for instance) question the idea that the creator's creation was perfect. We can run in circles with this one if we tried to discuss, I think.
As to the second point, about Satan being more powerful than us, he is still nothing compared to God isn't he? That is to say that there isn't any contest at work here. God could still squash him if he chose. So I don't see the difference.
I'm not sure what the last point changes. If he went against God's wishes, then he is still rebelling against God.
Just throwing some thoughts out there. Not trying to start an argument. :-)
IsaacJ
hi, guys,.
i`m a member of u3a in our local regional community,in a discussion group with approximately 16 members and have been asked to give my experiences to being a jehovah`s witness for 33 yrs and now classifying myself as an agnostic leaning towards atheism.i do of course have some idea how to proceed with this project,however your input would be greatly appreciated.i have 45 mins to present my case, then questions from others present would follow.i feel this would be a great advantage to show what the wtb&ts is all about,without coming across as a disgruntled,dissolutioned,bitter person with an axe to grind.which i am not.however i would like to present this "expose" if you like in a professional manner .this is to take place on the 26th of may.. now i`m not going to be all doom and gloom about the wtb&ts i will be highlighting some of their acheivements,the biggest single publishing organization,distributing millions of literature wordwide in numbers of languages that exceeds readers digest.at one time they had 4 publications in the guiness book of records in the top 10 most widely distributed publications available.and also in the early years they were the fore runners of religous freedoms.. so please feel free to contribute some information that will help some poor soul for falling victim to this insidious organization smiddy.
I would start with a brief description of your upbringing in the WT and a brief outline of a few basic differences that separate JWs from other Protestants. (Nonbelief in Trinity, not everyone goes to Heaven, Jesus isn't God but the archangel Michael, no holidays...) I'd make sure to mention any eye raising or interesting details. Especially ones that might be relevant to your transformation from a JW to an agnostic atheist. Then I'd spend some time talking about that transformation. It may help to talk about your values. Not just moral values, but talk about how your values (the things you consider to be important) have changed while explaining your transformation. Then you can point out the differences the values of JWs and your new values. For instance, maybe you're a freethinking and the WTS discourages freethinking. Or maybe you don't like their authitarianism and info control because they conflict with your values.
To avoid seeming like a bitter person with an axe to grind, it would be good avoid words like "cult" and "mind control." Instead, focus on the details of their behaviors which make them a cult in your mind and the things that made you leave. If your experiences contributed to your current views as an agnostic, this can help your narration flow from one topic to the other along with the thing about values I mentioned before. By explaining the reasons for your change in world view instead of telling your audience how to feel about those reasons (JWs are bad, the WTS is evil, etc), you are allowing the audience to reach their own conclusions. Be sure to include positives about JWs and the Society as well, then explain why--for you--this was not enough to keep you as a JW. Or why the bad qualities overuled the good ones for you--which is, in part, about your values.
Hope this helps.
IsaacJ
i considered myself immune to ex jw stuff.
no amount of old watchtowers or anything would change me.
it was seeing treatment of others by elders and the bible itself, which woke me.
For me, it started out with some of the things being said from the podium. Like, "If you disagree with the Elders/Society, maybe you should try being more humble," and other things. That sort of attitude really threw me as it wasn't consistent with what I had THOUGHT the Society was. Bear in mind that I was also one who had a lot of difficulty with the Elders in our congregation (I was a teenager who's parents weren't in the Society) so I started blaming the individual Elders giving the talks for statements like these. To me, the hubris was getting tough to swallow and it bothered me a lot. Then I started reading some of these same comments in the magazines. I began to have real doubts.
Funny thing about this was that I kept trying to find the absolute, total devotion that I once had. But couldn't find it again. I'd begun to see that the Society was flawed.
Anyway, I finally just cracked. I was totally miserable and confused and had been so for a while. I was far more miserable as a JW than I'd ever been. So I decided to distance myself from the KH until I could sort things out. Within 2 weeks, the congregation started harrassing me and leaving 30 to 50 messages on my answering machine a day. They'd find me at the grocery store and give me MORE attitude and hubris. They'd confront me even in public places. So I got tired of it and began really looking into things and trying to decide if it was the Society or me. I felt too close to the subject at this point, but their badgering made me realize that I needed to figure things out at eventually--even after the worst of it had subsided after the first couple of years.
Later, I returned to the subject when my in-laws decided to start pressuring me about it again. Now, I had more distance than before and could really sort things out. The first thing I needed to know was should I still consider the Society as my "True Religion." I started trying to figure out questions like: "Is the Society sincere and honest? Do they have their facts straight? Is it me, or is it them?" You can guess which way my conclusions went.
My experiences caused me to reevaluate everything, including religion/gods in general. I didn't want to limit myself to Christianity per se. I began to see that they all have claims to "The Truth," but none of them necessarily has it. I began to see that the arguments made by atheists were more covnincing to me. Eventually, I began to see myself as an agnostic atheist or secular atheist. By this point, the Society had long been written off my list of possibilities.
IsaacJ
hello: last night i got a computer virus.
after fighting with it for several hours.
i installed a new to this computer.
You can download something like Drivereasy that will scan your computer and find all the drivers you need.
IsaacJ
they are zombies you know.
they are not thinking for themselves.
they let the governing body think for them.
The claim that they are somehow God's/Jesus's one and only channel to humans on Earth, even though they clearly have no evidence to prove this even to themselves. Much less to anyone else.
They don't even have the sack to claim they receive visions from the divine or have any obvious evidence that there is such a line of communication. Just just sort of decided it must be true without any reason whatsoever. There's not even a fax machine in their office that has "News from God" labeled on it...preferably one that isn't even plugged into a phone outlet BTW (Cue scary twilight zone music.) though even one that is plugged in would be something. They just kinda wake up one day and decide--out of no where--that Jesus is feeding them the big answers. And that everyone should listen to them or else. They don't even seem to know how Jesus is feeding them the answers. Apparently, Jesus isn't answering that one.
If that were true at all, how could they keep making so many mistakes and making so many changes? Is Jesus's phone line screwed up or something? None of that even makes sense.
Then, to tell millions of people that they should all listen to the Body's religious assertions--that JWs should pretend that the Body's claims are from God, but he has the volume turned so low that they hear it wrong a lot of the time or something (??)--well, that does take sack. Wow.
IsaacJ
my best friend has started going back to meetings after a 30 year disassociation with the wtbts.
his main motive is for jehovah to remember and resurrect him on judgement day.
we have played a lot of bible ping-pong both quoting scripture to bolster our opposing position.
First, sorry for the long post. I'll try to give you some pointers that might help.
Your friend is probably in search of something. Escape from Armageddon seems to be part of it, as you mentioned. There could also be other factors motivating him. I would suggest focussing on your friend's motives more than on scripture per se. Except where scripture is one of his sources of fear regarding Armageddon, that is.
You could point out that other denominations have vaguely similar beliefs about end of the world scenarios, only they think you have to join their religion to escape doom and live forever instead of the Society's religion. Give your friend examples of these beliefs, go in to some detail and make them sound as plausible as the Society's viewpoint if you can. This might dull his fear of the Society's particular doomsday scenario. After all, your friend can only escape ONE of these doomsday scenarios. If you make them all seem plausible, then he may begin to realize that fear isn't a good enough reason to subscribe to the Watchtower's view above everyone elses. What if the Mormons are right? What if the Catholics are right? He can't escape every version of Armageddon. So why focus on escaping the Society's version? All of them conveniently want you to join them if you want to live forever, not go to Hell, etc. Fear just isn't the way to go.
With regard to scriptures that are making your friend worried about Armageddon, note that no Bible specifically say that the WTS is the true religion or say that you better stick with the WTS if you want to live forever. In fact, the Watchtower Society isn't even mentioned in any of them. The scriptures are actually quite vague on which denomination has "the truth." It could be any of them (or even none, in my opinion). There's no way to be 100% sure. So he can't be sure that God wants him to join the Society or that doing so will save him. That might actually make God angry and backfire. It could even be the final straw that guarantees your friend won't survive! Truth is, he just can't be sure.
This will hopefully help your friend realize that he is making several assumptions here: 1) that the Society must be the true religion 2) there is only one correct way to interpret scripture about Armageddon and that's the Society's way 3) that he truly understands what he needs to do to escape Armageddon.
In other words, his fear of the WTS's Armageddon could be totally misplaced. If it's true, he doesn't have enough information to save himself from it. He just has to hope for the best. He certainly doesn't need to go crawling back to an organization he clearly doesn't like. Why not try something that feels/seems right to him instead? There are surely other paths to salvation he would prefer.
If your friend cites the Society's attempts to prove they are the true religion to refute you, remind him that these arguments have serious problems and are far from irrefutable themselves. They simply don't prove that the Society has "the truth" per se and are therefore worthless. I have written an article here about this very thing that might help you. Bear in mind that this link goes to an atheist web site, but the article still applies to the case you're trying to make to your friend.
Again, sorry for the long post. Hope some of these ideas are useful to you.
IsaacJ
