IsaacJ22

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Posts by IsaacJ22

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  243

  Let's settle this for once and for all...... is atheism a belief, a non-belief or an anti-belief?

  by Quillsky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my opinion is that atheism is not a belief.

  it is a belief in no belief..

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  IsaacJ22

  As others have said, I don't see why this is so hard either. The only real confusion that makes sense to me is that many people are used to a single definition of the word and can't seem to get that one out of their head. Depending on what dictionaries you use, both the following definitions are technically accurate (as are several more I won't mention):

  1) atheists actively disbelieve in God, just as many of us disbelieve that the Society has the "true religion." If asked whether any gods are real, an atheist by this definition must answer, "No. Without question." This seems to be the definition that many people can't let go of. Still, we atheists must remember that it's a valid definition too.

  2) atheists are people who do not believe in God, but don't necessarily cross the line into disbelief. You might not believe that vitamin C cures cancer because you haven't seen proof, for instance, but still withold final judgment until proof is offered one way or the other.

  In other words, atheists these days see belief in gods as on-off switch. There is no fence, like agnosticism is supposed to be, to sit on. Either you believe or you don't. Disbelief isn't a factor. If you don't believe in any gods--or are simply unconvinced that any gods exist--then we consider you an atheist. That's it, really. The more I talk about it, the more complicated it will seem.

  Most atheists don't consider agnosticism to be a fence between theism and atheism. It is something else entirely. An agnostic believes that you can't prove or disprove gods absolutely. But you don't have to have proof to believe or even disbelieve. So you can be an agnostic Christian (believe in God without believing he can be proven or disproven) or an agnostic atheist (not convinced any gods are real, but without believing this can proven either way). This is why defining agnosticism as a middle ground between the two doesn't work very well, at least to me, and it sounds too wishy washy for atheists who have chosen to be bold and "come out" as nonbelievers. So most of us don't like to use it.

  Most self proclaimed atheists are actually agnostic atheists these days, also known as weak atheism. These are valid philosophical terms. If you look up "weak atheist" or "agnostic atheism" you will find definitions for them online or in books that discuss it.
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  24

  Water cloud over the earth? Anyone remember this teaching?

  by QuestioningEverything in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having a discussion with my sister and she remembers that there used to be a teaching that the earth had a watercloud over it and that's how we got rain.

  anyone else remember this?

  i vaguely do..

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  IsaacJ22

  The ancient authors of the Bible are supposed to have believed in a water canopy according to modern scholars, though of a slightly different sort. It was once thought that God made a dome of metal and covered the Earth with it. The dome was surrounded by water and kept the water at bay. The Earth was believed to be flat, but round, like a plate. The sky was the interior of the dome, which was laden with jewels that sparkled at night. There were "shutters" in the helmet, and God would open them occasionally to let the rain in. Presumably, during the flood, he opened all the shutters wide and at once.

  Or so I understand it. I'm sure others here know more. You can actually find some references to part of this story in the old Insight Books. My wife didn't really believe the story until she found it there. (She's still a JW.) I can't remember what the term was ... something to do with the "firmament" or the expanse that serparates the water canopy from the oceans mentioned in Genesis? The New World Translation uses a different word than most modern Bibles, which makes it sound like a space between the oceans and the canopy. It's actually supposed to be this metal dome thingy.

  Anyway...
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  24

  Water cloud over the earth? Anyone remember this teaching?

  by QuestioningEverything in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having a discussion with my sister and she remembers that there used to be a teaching that the earth had a watercloud over it and that's how we got rain.

  anyone else remember this?

  i vaguely do..

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  IsaacJ22

  I was told about this when I was a Witness by some older Witnesses, and even told that it was scientific ... when it isn't, of course. It's not that uncommon a belief among creationists and fundamentalists, Witnesses aren't the only ones who believe it.

  I think one of those old episodes of "In Search Of..." made the claim too.

  I suppose you could just write it off as a miracle if you wanted either way, they just add the "it's backed by science" claim to make it seem even more cool.
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  21

  Are You A Better Person Since Leaving The Witnesses?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  are you a better neighbor, friend, husband, wife, etc.

  i'm much less judgmental of what people do or think.

  i'm more tolerant and i think i have real friends that are not as conditional as my jw brethren.. what about you?.

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  IsaacJ22

  I am, too. I'm far more tolerant of other views now and don't feel guilty for thinking for myself. Also, I'm way less stressed, less miserable, and happier all around.
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  9

  Finally talked to my dad about it...

  by gutted in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  last night i finally talked to my dad about some of my views and problems with being a witness.

  he brought it up as he heard i am no longer going to meetings.. .

  his line of reasoning was interesting, though very similar to "it's god's organization, just follow it".

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  IsaacJ22

  I agree with yknot, especially with the first 2 questions regarding why and how. Point out that you and your father have both met people out in service who wouldn't convert because they simply made up their minds that their current religion has "the truth." If they can be wrong, why can't he be wrong about the WTS? That's no basis for anything, really.

  To merely accept the Society's claims and obey it's leaders is blind faith and blind obedience. You and he could both be throwing your lives away because you're following the wrong religion and didn't take the time to find out which religion has "the truth." God may hold you accountable. Isn't that worth something?

  And how do you investigate the "trueness" of a religion? I can't think of any way, except to look at the details! And maybe at the organziation's behavior, which your father already admits is less than stellar when they try to coverup their gaffs instead of admitting to them.

  BTW, I'm an atheist, so I'm merely talking strategy here. But you must focus on your father's feelings here, not his intellect. He obviously isn't following his reasoning very much if he's telling you to basically just go with it. I doubt an argument over the Society's reasoning about various issues will matter very much to him. If you sense he's wavering, that might be the time to start hitting him with other things. But until then, wouldn't bother. If nothing else, maybe you can get him to accept your reasons for leaving. I wouldn't get my hopes up about converting him to your way of thinking, though.

  Best of luck either way.
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  21

  Has anyone read the book of mormom and compared to bible?

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  just curious if the message is the same or anything extra in it.

  i'll eventually read it to decide if i think it's in agreement and inspired.

  to those who say no books would be added after revelation, i say read that scripture again, it's for the book of revelation itself.

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  IsaacJ22

  I know a little about Mormonism, but no where near enough to be an expert. I was actually looking into it when I went to my first meeting at the KH, and I have a couple of Mormon wannabes in my family. I would recommend you research them just as you would the WTS. The similarities are ... well, kinda disturbing if you're an XJW. And the story behind Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon is comically implausible. They even made fun of it on South Park.

  If the WTS and the Church of Scientology had a child, it would look a lot the Mormon Church. They're a lot like the Society, only zanier by most American/Protestant standards. There are pleny of ex-Mormon sites on the web you can visit that clue you in on what I mean. Don't forget that some XMs are like some XJWs--some of them remember it fondly and unrealistically. I visit some of the XM sites on occassion just to see the similarities with my own WT experiences.

  If it helps, bear in mind that the original Battlestar Galactica had a lot of Mormonism in it. It was a kind of scifi Mormon story. Kobol, for instance, sounds a lot like Kolob--a planet or star that the Mormons believe in. Also, the modern day version of the church is actually a breakoff of the original, just as the WTS can be considered a breakoff of the original Bible Students. There was lots of good stuff on Wikipedia on Mormons years ago. You might also want to check there. They'll have details about the Book of Mormon too.
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  27

  What Do You Do For Exercise?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in the summer i play outdoor tennis nearly everyday for about an hour and a half.

  i'm going to resume racquetball in the winter which is great for cardio!.

  what's your exercise pattern like?.

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  IsaacJ22

  I still don't do enough. But I tried running for a while. Did as much walking as running, actually, but just running once a week made a big difference. Now, I shoot hoops in the backyard and want to start running again soon. Don't bother with fancy shoes, they don't help. They're actually more likely to cause injury. Running is very effective and costs nothing. The down side is that you need a place to run and if you're overweight you tend to prefer places where there aren't too many people around.

  I also have a recumbant bike that I can use indoors, but anything outdoors is always better. Even if it's too hot or too cold outside. You get used to it.
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  31

  My wife has asked me to tone it down

  by JWinprotest in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  lately i've been making a lot of negative comments about the wts at family gatherings, trying to plant seeds of doubt whenever i can.

  but my wife thinks i'm going overboard and starting to raise suspicion.

  we had a huge argument last night because i told her i'd rather not go to the gatherings at all than to stay quiet.

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  IsaacJ22

  I have had some similar problems with my in-laws. I can tell you that deliberately planting seeds of doubt is unlikely to work. You are merely antagonizing them and setting their apostate alarms off. In which case, they won't listen to you anyway. But I can totally relate to getting irritated with the child-like praise. Especially when it seems like they're just saying it to take a poke at you.

  There have been times when I finally spoke up if they kept making comments like that. Not to plant a seed, but to stand up for my decision to leave the WTS and to point out that they don't always have all the facts. Also, it helped not feel like I was being walked on. Usually, the response was something like, "Those are just lies spread by apostates." Or, "They just make up stuff like that because they're jealous."

  It was really hard not to laugh when I heard stuff like that. They're just evasions, though. They always turned away from me whenever they said them. I usually didn't push any harder than that; it was enough that they knew I wasn't on the same page. Any more and they would have seen me as the enemy.

  Basically, people need to be ready to leave the WTS. The more you push them, the deeper they'll sink into the WTS's protective cocoon. And the further from you they will slink. It tends to have the opposite effect of the one you want. I would suggest that it's enough that they know you see things differently and that they understand you have decent reasons for it.
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  11

  When men were made Elders, did you notice their personality change?

  by carvin in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i thought about this after reading flippers thread about how elders are appointed.

  great thread by the way.. i can recall many times when guys were made elders, and sometimes even made ms that their personility would change almost over night.

  i knew many nice, kind, elders and ms but many especially newly appionted ones would be, at times, just difficult to be around.

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  IsaacJ22

  I've seen some cases like Blondie described. There was one Elder in particular at my old congregation who truly seemed to give a darn, but he was constantly berated by the other Elders and even censored by the Presiding Overseer (who I was studying with at the time). He was the only one who took much interest in my situation, as the first Elder I was studying with was the congregations #1 bully and he kept ordering me and others around. I really think the guy had some sort of mental problem.

  I've seen this sort of thing from people who become managers, too. There's supposedly a lot of junk and paperwork that goes with being an Elder. And there's the stress of the added duties. Some of it may be that pressure leaking through, just as it does with so-called "worldly" supervisors on the job. Of course, Elders are supposed to be there to serve the congregation rather than lording it over the flock, but I digress. Ultimately, it's easier to abuse your authority than it is to be humble. Even while you're telling others to be more humble. Many an Elder at my old congregation would quote the line about double honor at every single talk they gave!

  Power corrupts. That's the bottom line, I think.
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  21

  Long Distance Adultery and Other Issues

  by buddhaisbetter in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  allow me a moment to introduce myself: first of all, i am not a member of your faith as surely can be garnered from my choice of user name.

  i joined this forum with the intention of getting some information on a situation i'm forced to contend with that concerns my son.

  my questions are not designed to bash your beliefs, regardless of my personally held opinions and i hope that any discussion can be conducted without contention.

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  IsaacJ22

  Some very liberal congregations do exist, but generally, I suspect that she either isn't fully a JW (maybe not baptized) or she is, as others have said, lying. It may be that SHE decided on the compromise you mentioned--that she can still have contact if the husband is around--but I doubt the Elders did. If any Elder did, he did it on his own and would probably be disciplined by the local body of Elders for it, or at least rebuked in some fashion. That simply isn't how it works.

  JWs can't even go on dates without a chaperone around here--even if they have grandkids!

  This sounds like a bad situation all around. I feel for you, and your son. Sounds like he's lonely. Ultimately, the smart thing would be for her to get her situation straight before he moves there. That means leaving her husband. But getting your son to take that advice is another matter. Like many others here, I am an ex-Witness, so bear that in mind when I tell you that becoming a JW isn't necessarily such a good thing. I can't tell you how easy it might be for your son to get pulled into the Watchtower Society, especially if he's far away from all he knows. Hopefully, if it gets that far, she will break it off with the Society anyway...or be disfellowshipped. Maybe then your son won't get pulled in and won't get hurt either. That's the best that can be hoped for. Sadly, it sounds like a long shot. :-(

  Best of luck. And yes, you came to the right place for advice on this.