Posts by IsaacJ22

67

Read S. Hassan's Book: Do JW's really fit the cult mold?

by simon17 in

first time i got a chance to read his book, "combatting cult mind control" and was interested to see if jw's fell into the cult mold.

my opinion after carefully reading and having left the witnesses after almost 30 years is... no, they don't.

however, i would add that they wish they were but are simply too big and unwieldy to really pull it off.

IsaacJ22

Simon, I think it depends on how high a bar you set for a cult. I suggest you be a bit careful when talking about this issue as people have different opinions and some hold to their opinions very passionately. Words like "cult" are tricky, because they're basically bad things, yet the meaning of the word is a little hard to pin down. It's hard to put an exact definition on the word "religion," for instance. As far as I know, some experts agree with you, some do not.

You feel that physical control of members is necessary to consider a group to be a cult. Many of us don't think that's the necessarily the case, and this is one of those areas where people will debate over what a cult really is. I would agree that the Society probably isn't as bad as a cult that does assert physical control over its members.

Emotional control, for me, is an adequate substitute for physical control. So for me, the bar is a bit lower than it is for you.

78

The WATCHTOWER isn't DECEITFUL , they are just IMPERFECT

by Minimommi in

i recently started questioning my beliefs and i am not happy with what i found out.

i am married to a born in who admits that wtbs has some problems.

one of his favorite scriptures to quote is psalms 146:3 to "not put your trust in nobles", including the so called fds.

IsaacJ22

My position has always been that the GB and other WT leaders are, at best, really incompetent. They probably aren't doing a lot of the harm they do knowingly, they just don't know what the heck they're doing and aren't interested in improving. All kinds of evil can come from a combination of traits like that.

Of course, none of that excuses the evil they do.

37

Those of us who left the WT for less than noble reasons

by Aussie Oz in

jw
friends

sometimes i feel like a second class apostate...not that anyone has ever said anything to make me feel that way, i just do, you know what i mean?.

i left the jws because i just couldn't fight my flesh anymore.

the battle inside was going to kill me literally.

IsaacJ22

Aussie, it sounds like leaving was good for you. You learned about yourself and became better for it. The end result, at least, was noble.

Personally, I think the Society puts the idea in our heads that getting out because you're dissatisfied is bad. Is it really? Sounds like the WTS wasn't enough, or wasn't right, for you. End of story there. The only way I can see leaving as wrong is if you assume the WTS has "the truth." I stopped making that assumption like 15 years. So how was leaving wrong for either of us?

11

Watchtower 2008 says belief in Evolution makes you a helpless lost Orphan???

by Witness 007 in

watch feb 1st "if we really are the product of evolution and there is no creator, the human race would in a sense be an orphan.

mankind would have no source of superior wisdom to consult - no one to help us solve our problems.

we would have to resort to human wisdom to avert enviromental disaster.

IsaacJ22

Even before I was an atheist, this sort of thinking was hard for me to swallow. Basically, it's a purely emotional argument. "See, doesn't this make you feel bad? Just believe whatever makes you happy and all will be swell!"

I would like to think that the truth of an idea should count for something. After all, if humans evolved and there is no God, then that's probably the way it's always been. The world is exactly the same as it was yesterday. And we're still here.

13

When is it time to fully open up to a spouse

by ihadnoidea in

jw
friends

recently my very active jw wife has been more critical of the wt and some of their stances.

she has particularly been critical of topics that hit home to some of the things going on in lives of our families.

i am still going through the motions as an active servant, but i am mentally out.

IsaacJ22

The only thing I would add to these suggestions is this: the next time she speaks up about an issue, encourage her to say more. Ask reasonable questions. Then acknowledge it when you think she has made a good point.

Don't ask her an overtly JW question, like, "But don't you think it's still the truth?" Just ask the kind of questions that get her to say more, then encourage her by letting her know when you agree. Take it slow, but after a time, you could start adding to her comments. As in, "Yeah! You know something else about that one is..."

Eventually, she'll build up enough confidence with you that SHE may actually ask YOU if you want to stay in. Or it will become obvious that the two of you are on the same wave length and you can finally know that it's safe to open up.

85

Hello--new to the witnesses...and you

by LKM in

jw
friends

just wanted to introduce myself.

i went to the kh for the first time 2 weeks ago...and will go again tomorrow.

i don't believe anything witnessy...(i was raised in the assembly of god church and now the closest thing i "do" with religion is yoga or sometimes the buddhist temple).... but the man i'm in love with is a df'd jw (we've been together for 6 years).... and he wants to get reinstated just to talk to his family again (i can assure you he does not believe it).... and he wants his family to accept me because we are about to get married... so, i'm going to meetings...its very interesting, but only because it shows me more about how he was raised.

IsaacJ22

I would like to suggest that you don't really have to do this at all. Whether you go to meetings or not should have no real impact on his chances for reinstatement. Going to meetings won't help you get along with his family...they'll badger you and look down on you either way unless you convert. I don't think he's really thought this one through.

But as others have said, be prepared to be badgered about a Bible study. Not only at meetings but by his family as well. It could get aggressive and even ridiculous.

I suggest you point out bad behavior from Witnesses when it goes too far. Site the fact that you're being nice and they are not. Then you can disappear for a while at a time after they act like jerks and rightfully claim that it's their attitude that's the problem, not yours. Make sure he understands what you're going through as well. Maybe he'll realize that this isn't a good plan for you and that, in the long run, it won't help him earn anyones approval either.

I was wondering about the same things regarding Assemblies of God as jwfacts, BTW. :-) I had the same impression about them.

39

Is The WTBTS' View Of Homosexuality Softening?

by JW GoneBad in

or at least the public may be given the impression that jws and the wtbts are fair minded and do not discriminate against the homosexual lifestyle.

check out this quote from the nov 1, 2011 watchtower (public edition).

the article on page 4 is entitled 'ten questions about sex answered'.. question 8: does god approve of homosexuality?.

IsaacJ22

I agree with Oz. That's just how the writing dept rolls.

The literature often acknowledges a humbler or gentler point of view out of one side of its mouth while condemning it right from the other side of its mouth.

For instance, they sometimes acknowledge that it's not nice to shun people and that it sucks for Witness families to hurt their loved ones by shunning them. To readers who aren't paying much attention, that sounds pretty nice and makes it easier for Witnesses to deny shunning if things get awkward because they can quote that line out of context if they like. Then, in the very same paragraph, the same article will go on to say that Witnesses must shun DFed ones anyway.

I wouldn't get excited by this at all. It's standard practice.

28

I just had JWs come to my door

by Scarred for life in

jw
friends

i had not seen them in my neighborhood in at least 4 years.

i ddn't go to the door.

i avoid them when at all possible.

IsaacJ22

Before I moved, I saw them quite often. I only lived like 2 miles away, so... I've lived here a year and a half and only seen them once. Well, twice if you count the time one of my in-laws told a friend of hers it was okay to come by. (Thanks for saying that without asking either of us, BTW.)

I also used to see a lot of Mormons even though there weren't any Mormon temples nearby that I know of. Mormons and JWs were in the neighborhood at the same time on at least 2 if not 3 occasions. I'm sure that was fun for everybody. You shut the door on one and here comes another group like 10 mins later. Grrr...

I thought 7th Day Adventists did door to door work too, but I never saw any of them even though they were only 1 mile away. So I guess that's wrong?

I used to see Pentecostals almost as often of JWs and Mormons.

20

The Honeymoon Stage...well kind of

by mrsjones5 in

jw
friends

i'm keeping my distance from my parents but i keep running into my mother around town.

yesterday it was at walmart, a couple of weeks ago it was at the mall.

both times my husband was not acknowledged (basically shunned), hubby says its a weird feeling but he's ok with not having to talk to my mother.. i call my mother every couple of weeks or so and the last time i spoke to her (about two days before walmart) she said that she wished we could go shopping or go to lunch together.

IsaacJ22

Luckily, no one else in my family were ever JWs. Just my in-laws...which is plenty bad enough.

But my father is a master manipulator. I'd even call him machiavellian, like the archvillian from a TV show. My step-mother is pretty far up there as well, though in a way that's more typical of manipulative mom's. She treated her own daughters considerably worse than she's treated me, so I guess I was lucky.

I have very little to do with either of them now.

Now I think someone else mentioned this particular piece of advice, but it works for me, so I'll repeat it.

Just because someone is related to you doesn't make them family. Don't confuse these concepts. If your mom is poison and truly believes she has a right to be, then you're within your rights to treat her as poison. No one has the right to make you miserable to make themselves feel better. Not even your parents.

Being a parent isn't just a right that gives her some entitlements. It's a responsibility. You can't demand the one to an unreasonable degree without fulfilling the other to an unreasonable degree.

If she wants perfect deference out of you, then she needs to be the perfect mom. There's no such thing. But she'll keep hitting you with whatever works to get what she wants. Including guilt and telling you how much you owe her.

When do your wants matter? Shouldn't they matter to a loving parent?

Don't let yourself be swayed and used by guilt.

12

If you could change one mistake what would it be? (excluding the whole jw thing)

by Voices in

jw
friends

my ex.

me.

IsaacJ22

Not confronting Witnesses who harassed me for years after I left the KH sooner--or even going to the police.