This is really one of the first doctrinal things I began to disagree with them on. IP_Sec, Well maybe they just got lucky, but earth is correct. Who this great crowd is or how were they derived is false. They are a great crowd of sheep derived from the separating of Nations that existed throughout history as described in Matt. 25:31. Pretty much like the wheat and tares are separated. Or the seed of the woman identified and separated from the seed of the serpent. That is the idea. 1. Rev 7:9- They are described as standing before the throne and in the presence of the son of man. Sounds like heaven to me. The problem with such thinking is that this son will be here at THAT time. Everyone will be here, this great crowd of sheep, the Church (144,000), our Lord in the flesh, everyone that is resurrected to immortal human life for whatever reason. This assembly is approved by God and pictured as being before the throne symbolically. Joseph
JosephMalik
JoinedPosts by JosephMalik
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A great crowd.. heaven or earth.
by IP_SEC inthe great crowd ahh yes the great crowd.
actually im not sure where the witnesses get the term the great crowd.
the bible simply calls it a great crowd.
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Would you give blood now? Would you accept it?
by sass_my_frass inhow do you feel about blood now?
the thought of taking a blood transfusion still gives me the creeps... but now i know that i'd take one if my life was on the line.
i'm thinking about giving blood too.
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JosephMalik
How do you feel about blood now? The thought of taking a blood transfusion still gives me the creeps... but now I know that I'd take one if my life was on the line. I'm thinking about giving blood too. Hello Sass, We are no longer under Law. Giving blood will not violate scripture or count against your salvation in any way. The life you save may even count in your favor. But it gives me the creeps also. Most medical procedures do that, not just blood. Giving and or accepting blood has inherit risks of infection so we must determine if the good outweighs the risks. For some people giving blood is helpful in reducing iron and improving health. Blood substitutes may not work as well as blood and like everything else such use depends on the circumstances. So it is your call. Anyone that eats meat also eats blood so it is not as if anyone truly abstains. T here is no need to be concerned over the letter James wrote in Acts 15. He was the ringleader in keeping the Law and used this very same letter (Acts chapter 21) to chastise the Apostle Paul and threaten him into keeping the Law. Using the threat of bodily harm he coerced Paul to take Nazarite vows and he needed time to reason with them but to no avail. The law keeping disciples in Jerusalem that supported James even tried to kill him afterwards because of his opposition to them. Paul under armed Roman protection barely escaped from them with his life. While such verses were used to coerce you into not using blood, they were the doctrines of James and the apostates of the time just like they are used by apostates in our time. James many years later finally repented of this outrage under heavy pressure from Paul and his teaching. Joseph
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Romans 6:7 and the WT
by Honesty init is amazing how a scripture can be twisted interpreted when taken out of context.
*** rbi8 romans 6:7 ***.
7 for he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
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JosephMalik
Honesty, What is hiding here and in many other texts is Justification. Baptists usually say “are you Saved?” The Watchtower does not understand it. It is more important than resurrection. It is more important than immortality. Resurrection without Justification even if the resurrected person is immortal is not good. Such persons are still in trouble. Resurrection with Justification means that second death has no authority over them. Much better. It is a MAJOR teaching of the New Covenant yet few are grasping it. While our Lord used different words to describe Justification obtaining it is the Key to eternal life. 53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." Joseph
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Romans 6:7 and the WT
by Honesty init is amazing how a scripture can be twisted interpreted when taken out of context.
*** rbi8 romans 6:7 ***.
7 for he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
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JosephMalik
Leolaia,
How do you do hugs? ((((((( )))))) or somethink like that?
Joseph
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Romans 6:7 and the WT
by Honesty init is amazing how a scripture can be twisted interpreted when taken out of context.
*** rbi8 romans 6:7 ***.
7 for he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
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JosephMalik
Honesty,
Well we can forget about these texts then:
Ro 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
1Co 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
Ga 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
1Jo 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.To teach that our own death acquits us of past sin somehow and convince millions of people of this is incredible. It makes the blood of Christ worthless. What kind of people are JW’s anyway? Paul is simply describing the effect our baptism has on us. He is describing Justification. All they have to do is look back a few verses to get the context and they would have learned:
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Our physical death has no effect on our sins. But since they are JW’s and not witnesses of Christ then what our Lord taught can be ignored.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Joseph
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The Septuagint or the Hebrew Text, Which Should Christians Choose?
by Nate Merit in(the following article by nathaniel j merritt was originally published in 1996 in the now-defunct orthodox way magazine, a small theological journal which explored obscure or controversial issues in the eastern orthodox spiritual tradition.
should christians embrace the greek septuagint translation of the old testament or the hebrew text?
if we are jews, then by all means let us embrace the hebrew text.
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JosephMalik
My 'dogmatism' did as it was supposed to do. Churn up some excellent discussion.
Nate Merit, Well that is not difficult to do here. But there is a difference in my case. In your case you said: (My opinion is that the Bible is a collection of Mythology, so I am do not have anything of myself invested in the issue) But I have another view that supports the Bible as an instructional document intended to educate, guide and advance mankind. And all this in spite of all the difficulties I outlined in its compilation, translaton and interpretation. The very complexities that lead to the multitude of interpretations we see today also protected the document over the years from excessive alteration that would have rendered it useless. While you are free to say whatever you like, (as is Narkissos) I am not and must stay within what I perceive as the instructions imbedded in it and intended for us today. Joseph -
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The Septuagint or the Hebrew Text, Which Should Christians Choose?
by Nate Merit in(the following article by nathaniel j merritt was originally published in 1996 in the now-defunct orthodox way magazine, a small theological journal which explored obscure or controversial issues in the eastern orthodox spiritual tradition.
should christians embrace the greek septuagint translation of the old testament or the hebrew text?
if we are jews, then by all means let us embrace the hebrew text.
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JosephMalik
The LXX does advance things theologically over the Hebrew OT. A good example is how the LXX revises the text to turn ambiguous or negative statements into explicit promises of a resurrection: Leolaia, I knew when I commented on the LXX that it was a waste of time but the dogmatic statements being made about it needed attention. The LXX does not advance things theologically over the Hebrew OT. It after all is a translation and cannot advance anything over the original texts. One cannot assume that the Hebrews were closer to divine revelation and could do a better job. They lost their temple, rejected Christ, abused their own beliefs and are still floundering around looking for Elijah to come. Why should we think they could translate the text better than their understanding of it at the time? The LXX may seem to advance things theologically to some but this is only an opinion. Which Hebrew text is the correct one anyway? How does anyone know that the LXX translation used accurate Hebrew texts? All we can do is recognize that problems existed then and will continue to exist for us. We must use care regardless of where we draw our sources. With all this so called accuracy and better understanding of resurrection we still live in a world where the resurrection is not understood, hell is a burning place for some and a place of rest for others. The nature of God is still argued heavily. Some believe in an immortal soul and some do not. Some want to go to a place called heaven and some think that this heaven is right here on earth. Some believe the body of Jesus was broken up into atoms and some believe that Jesus raised it from the dead and will use it again. And all this from a book common to them all in a world where we have the LXX, the best translations from the Hebrew text possible and massive study of this book by millions. We can only use the LXX the way we use some other translation and that is with awareness for its shortcomings. So we can discuss it to no end but is anything theologically advanced in our day? Not for the masses it seems, but only for the few. Joseph
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The Septuagint or the Hebrew Text, Which Should Christians Choose?
by Nate Merit in(the following article by nathaniel j merritt was originally published in 1996 in the now-defunct orthodox way magazine, a small theological journal which explored obscure or controversial issues in the eastern orthodox spiritual tradition.
should christians embrace the greek septuagint translation of the old testament or the hebrew text?
if we are jews, then by all means let us embrace the hebrew text.
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JosephMalik
Nate Merit,
When the LXX version was actually written has been discussed on this forum before. This date is based upon tradition and not locked in concrete as many think. You should have a look at: http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/LXXJophus.html
One would expect bits and pieces of the Hebrew text to appear during the first century, but the LXX itself? Not necessarily so. Why is it more Messianic? Could it be because it came later? As with any translation the most accurate renderings would still be in the original not in the translation. And when we consider all the errors that have crept in to all copies, even they must be considered carefully. Is the LXX helpful? Yes in some cases it is. Especially in the case of and in the application of the term I AM.
Joseph
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Appropriateness of Women's Headcovering
by TheListener in1 corinthians 11:3-16 doesn't make any sense to me.
several other places paul says there are no male, female, slaves, jews, greeks, etc but we are all one with christ.
so why do some of us, who are all one, have to cover our heads or not even speak publicly at the meetings?
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JosephMalik
According to you they were dummies regarding the deity of Christ. You have said that you know beter than them how to tranlate scripture when you are making Christ a 'little god'. LOL
Rex,
You know you are lying about me here. But I guess anything goes nowadays.
Joseph
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Franz' statement is outrageously unreasonable!
by Schizm ineternal life on earth?
god told the first human couple their destiny if they disobeyed.
he did not discuss their eternal future if they obeyed.
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JosephMalik
It suggests that you believe that an individual spirit somehow maintains the body's life. Satanus and whoever else is interested or involved: No surprise here as this is believed by many. Life is propagated from one couple to another by procreation and is not maintained by a spirit (defined as a separate invisible living intelligence as perceived in this argument). Satanus continues: Also, that an individual spirit, on it's own runs low on power, or becomes tainted somehow. It would follow as well that a spirit who got his connection w god rehooked up would be maintaining his body free from death. This is nothing but the product of someone’s imagination. There is nothing within ourselves that existed in Adam’s mortal body or our mortal bodies that could prevent our death other than this tree of life now lost to us. Not even getting rehooked up with God can do that. Continued existence by being resurrected or changed by means of a Savior is now our only hope. This is promised to mankind and this is the only way such existence will continue. Satanus continues: But primarily, for adam, this isn't death for the individual spirit, but rather, a death of the body Some view this as falling from grace on that day and as a consequence access to the tree of life was cut off which could have turned things around for Adam’s mortal body. This would be within the parameters to the word death. And then the word day is also used for epoch, a lifetime, some period of time within the realm of ones physical limitations as a mortal human. We have historical evidence for it as you pointed out: Satanus: although it took over 900 yrs for the his body to realise what had happened. This is one way to look at it sure. The spirit within us, the spirit that returns to God at death should never have been defined or understood as: invisible living intelligence or a Being within us. The word Spirit has many possible definitions but like the wind it represents, seldom is the correct one used. The definition and use of the word spirit varies from verse to verse. Schizm, You said: I happen to be one such persons that have sent in such suggestions, and I've never been looked upon as an apostate nor treated like one. You, as well as most others here, need to wake up and smell the roses. Why not show us what you suggested? Did you also talk them up in the congregation and get other opinions? Let us see for ourselves if you were a threat to them and their authority or not? How can we smell the roses if you keep them to yourself?
Joseph