Honesty, If anything 1 Thess 4:17 simply demonstrates how fast things will take place when our Lord comes back in the clouds as promised. No need to wait until His feet actually touch the ground during this descent for such resurrection to take place. Much like walking on water which even Peter was able to do until it appeared unreal for him as well. Just who did you think the angels were in this text: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: The Saints of course, the messengers (angels) of the New Covenant that will make up this Kingdom along with the sheep He selects (resurrects) from mankind to live in it as well. Joseph
JosephMalik
JoinedPosts by JosephMalik
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15
ParadiseWhere?
by AuldSoul inre chap.
7 p. 37 rekindle that first love!
14 since they have no prospect of living in an earthly paradise, how is it that anointed christians, such as those ephesians, are rewarded with eating of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of god?
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ParadiseWhere?
by AuldSoul inre chap.
7 p. 37 rekindle that first love!
14 since they have no prospect of living in an earthly paradise, how is it that anointed christians, such as those ephesians, are rewarded with eating of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of god?
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JosephMalik
AuldSoul, Where will this paradise be? Here on earth of course. This is man’s home, this is why it took a human sacrifice to redeem man and this is where all resurrection will take place. You said: If the evildoer is to be with Christ, and the evildoer is to be in Paradise, where will Christ be? Here on earth as stated in scripture: Christ will be here on earth when he comes again according to this promise: Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. You said regarding Paul: First he states that the person described was caught away "to the third heaven" then he says the person was "caught away into Paradise." But Paradise can't be in heaven, so Paul must not have meant what he said. Or this is simply a failure in interpretation. Heaven was used by Paul for government and ruler-ship here on earth. Paul had a vision of the Kingdom yet to come the third heaven under which mankind will serve God much like John did in the Revelation. The Law covenant, the New Covenant, and the Kingdom itself are the three heavens that God established to determine man’s worthiness for eternal life. There is no provision for human beings to become non-human beings in scripture. According to its Kind is a basic rule of God. This is why the Word had to become flesh. It was as a human that Jesus regained the human immortality Adam lost for us. It was His human sacrifice that can now redeem immortal humans beings to fill the earth. Thus all resurrection will take place here on earth in a Kingdom ruled by Him. Joseph
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Prepare to be SHOCKED.
by nicolaou inrecent posts have encouraged us all to be more tolerant of others beliefs whether those are religious, atheist or anything in the middle.
fair enough.
still, that doesn't mean i'm going to go easy on all you believers, yes even you jw lurkers who are reading this.. .
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JosephMalik
Nicolaou, What you are calling shock is nothing more than a solution to a problem that exists today. It is in fact our responsibility as disciples. The problem is stated by Paul like this: Gal 4:17 "Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them". This we find everywhere today and on this forum quite a bit. When they are challenged they put a bad name on it and attack your character. They want you to loosen up and be more tolerant so they can continue to look for victims. But our goal should be: 2Co 10:5 " We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ". I expect no less from myself or anyone else claiming to be a disciple. So go ahead and shock them, demolish their arguments and pretensions. This is nothing more than doing what is expected of us. Joseph
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Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic
by trem ini know that this may have been treated before but i still need your valuable suggestions.. rev 7:4 says "and i heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of israel", veses 5 to 8 provides additional details that 12,000 were selected from the 12 tribes of israel.
the book of numbers 1: 20-42 lists the following as the 12 tribes of natural israel: reu ben, sim eon, gad, judah, is sachar, zeb ulun, e phraim, manas seh, benjamin, dan, ash er and naph tali.
however, rev 7:5-8 did not list the tribes of ephraim and dan but instead listed 10 approved tribes with 2 non approved tribes of levi and joseph.
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JosephMalik
The bible does say the earth is destroyed on the great fear inspiring day of God almighty . Luke 17:26-36 The earth is destroyed by fire just as it was by water in noahs day. I don't see how the WTBTS thinks people are just going to sit in a kingdom hall and survive . completely riddiculous. Heathen, The earth was not destroyed in Noah’s day and is still here intact. The earth will not be destroyed by fire either but will continue intact just like it did then. There was a lot of death, and maybe some destruction but you missed the reasons entirely. The reasons such changes will take place will be to accommodate the Son of Man that will return to administer earth’s affairs once again. These verses show that no one survives as the WTBTS teaches. No one can simply live through this time when the Son of man is revealed. No matter where they are or what they are doing, they must be taken by our Lord. They must be changed and become immortal human beings or be resurrected as such. Mortal humans, flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. Immortal humans with spiritual or God given bodies can. After all the plan is for our Lord to return here once again in the flesh to rule. And humanity will exist with Him and enjoy a lifespan unheard of in our day with eternity in sight. Joseph
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MICHAEL, Jesus or someone else?
by cyberguy inwhat is your view?
is the michael in the bible jesus or someone else?
i've heard and read much debate on this important question, but i would appreciate your views!
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JosephMalik
Look on Page 281 under the other forum, Beliefs, Doctrines and Practices, under: Is Michael the Archangel really Jesus?
Joseph
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Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic
by trem ini know that this may have been treated before but i still need your valuable suggestions.. rev 7:4 says "and i heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of israel", veses 5 to 8 provides additional details that 12,000 were selected from the 12 tribes of israel.
the book of numbers 1: 20-42 lists the following as the 12 tribes of natural israel: reu ben, sim eon, gad, judah, is sachar, zeb ulun, e phraim, manas seh, benjamin, dan, ash er and naph tali.
however, rev 7:5-8 did not list the tribes of ephraim and dan but instead listed 10 approved tribes with 2 non approved tribes of levi and joseph.
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JosephMalik
Heathen,
Earth is not going to be destroyed at least not for a very long time. The new heavens and new earth simply contrast our old heavens (governments) and old earth (sinful mankind) with the new ones that will replace them. This is the planet on which humanity was seeded and the one on which such seeds will mature. After that we have no information only guesses.
Narkissos,
The He is our Lord the sacrifice which function is identified by John speaking for him. And: "It is (un)reasonable to think"... where did I hear that many many times before?
No telling but now you can say that you have heard it here.
Joseph -
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Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic
by trem ini know that this may have been treated before but i still need your valuable suggestions.. rev 7:4 says "and i heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of israel", veses 5 to 8 provides additional details that 12,000 were selected from the 12 tribes of israel.
the book of numbers 1: 20-42 lists the following as the 12 tribes of natural israel: reu ben, sim eon, gad, judah, is sachar, zeb ulun, e phraim, manas seh, benjamin, dan, ash er and naph tali.
however, rev 7:5-8 did not list the tribes of ephraim and dan but instead listed 10 approved tribes with 2 non approved tribes of levi and joseph.
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JosephMalik
Heathen,
Saved, that is a word like justified and I did not say they were saved or justified? You are discussing rules for those in the Faith and I am not. This great crowd are also resurrected or changed, they are immortal human beings like everyone else including our Lord but so what? Second death still has authority over them. They must successfully pass a final test. Only then will they be considered as saved.
Joseph
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Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic
by trem ini know that this may have been treated before but i still need your valuable suggestions.. rev 7:4 says "and i heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of israel", veses 5 to 8 provides additional details that 12,000 were selected from the 12 tribes of israel.
the book of numbers 1: 20-42 lists the following as the 12 tribes of natural israel: reu ben, sim eon, gad, judah, is sachar, zeb ulun, e phraim, manas seh, benjamin, dan, ash er and naph tali.
however, rev 7:5-8 did not list the tribes of ephraim and dan but instead listed 10 approved tribes with 2 non approved tribes of levi and joseph.
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JosephMalik
They are linked by a number of words and expressions (the most material facts you can get from a text)
Narkissos,
They are separated by words and expressions as well. These are also material facts you can get from the texts. In any event you have not demonstrated that they are Christians. It is unreasonable to think that only Christians inhabit a kingdom when He himself said: 1Jo 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. So where are they? They are this great crowd as I pointed out.
Joseph
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Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic
by trem ini know that this may have been treated before but i still need your valuable suggestions.. rev 7:4 says "and i heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of israel", veses 5 to 8 provides additional details that 12,000 were selected from the 12 tribes of israel.
the book of numbers 1: 20-42 lists the following as the 12 tribes of natural israel: reu ben, sim eon, gad, judah, is sachar, zeb ulun, e phraim, manas seh, benjamin, dan, ash er and naph tali.
however, rev 7:5-8 did not list the tribes of ephraim and dan but instead listed 10 approved tribes with 2 non approved tribes of levi and joseph.
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JosephMalik
How any of those descriptions could apply to "non-Christians" is beyond me. Narkissos, Sure take scriptures that do not apply to this argument mix them in with one that does and then say how you arrived at your conclusion is beyond me? I will tell you how. The one that does not apply to Christians is this one: After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands. They cried out in a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!" They are not Jews at the time of this Kingdom as Christians are or did you fail to notice? And John did not even recognize them so we learn this about them: I said to him, "Sir, you are the one that knows." Then he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple, and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them. They will hunger no more, and thirst no more; the sun will not strike them, nor any scorching heat; for the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of the water of life, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." Does does not sound like Christians to me. You are now looking at people brought to life simply because they came out of the great tribulation, taken out of earth’s general population and not because they were witnesses to Jesus. They need shelter while Christians already have one of the many abodes promised by our Lord. They will be shepherded as they still need shepherding and guidance. These are things our Lord’s disciples already achieved. You are seeing the salvation of this great crowd after the fact, after they are brought into the kingdom and realize what happened to them. You now see them adjusting to their new found circumstances. They now wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb for the first time in their lives while our Lords disciples did that long before they died. They now try to make peace with our Lord bearing palm branches and worship him day and night within his temple (which will be here on earth by the way). You are now seeing the Sheep like the thief that died next to our Lord that were separated from the goats at this time of judgment. Joseph
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Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic
by trem ini know that this may have been treated before but i still need your valuable suggestions.. rev 7:4 says "and i heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of israel", veses 5 to 8 provides additional details that 12,000 were selected from the 12 tribes of israel.
the book of numbers 1: 20-42 lists the following as the 12 tribes of natural israel: reu ben, sim eon, gad, judah, is sachar, zeb ulun, e phraim, manas seh, benjamin, dan, ash er and naph tali.
however, rev 7:5-8 did not list the tribes of ephraim and dan but instead listed 10 approved tribes with 2 non approved tribes of levi and joseph.
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JosephMalik
Are the 144,000 symbolic or literal? Symbolic is correct. They are as symbolic as the tribes they represent. Such tribes are not literal now because they have Gentiles spliced in which are also represented in this number. This is an illustration that maintains continuity with OT kingdom promises and demonstrates how that kingdom structure will continue into this kingdom now being introduced. This kingdom will consist of such 144,000 (only faithful disciples or slaves to which the New Covenant promises for ruler ship apply) who are resurrected along with a great crowd (decent human beings selected from the Nations, the seed of the woman Eve) also resurrected into this kingdom with Christ as King. Only now will such sheep that came out the great tribulation that embraced mankind from the time sin entered into the world get the opportunity to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb. The 144,000 have already done so and are justified as a result thus second death has no authority over them. We now see in vision this Kingdom in its entirety, how it was born and how it will be structured and function. We now know who is in it and where they came from. Not a bad snapshot for what is to come.
Joseph P.S. If you are a Christian then you are spiritually a Jew and part of the 12 tribes of Israel. Christianity is not divided into classes, only tribes as you see here. There are no Christians that come out of the this great tribulation pictured here. Christians were simply part of it as was the rest of mankind but now we see them as already sealed, (justified or saved). This great crowd are people of the Nations our Lord also brings in as described in Matt chapter 25. They are the sheep seperated from among the goats or the wheat selected from among the weeds. They are that humanity found in the book of life and thus found worthy of entrance. What we do now matters and will determine if we are worthy to enter this kingdom for whatever reason be it a Jew or a sheep.
J.M.