Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic

by trem 59 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • trem
    trem

    I know that this may have been treated before but I still need your valuable suggestions.

    Rev 7:4 says "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel", veses 5 to 8 provides additional details that 12,000 were selected from the 12 tribes of Israel. The book of Numbers 1: 20-42 lists the following as the 12 tribes of natural Israel: Reu´ben, Sim´e·on, Gad, Judah, Is´sa·char, Zeb´u·lun, E´phra·im, Ma·nas´seh, Benjamin, Dan, Ash´er and Naph´ta·li. However, Rev 7:5-8 did not list the tribes of Ephraim and Dan but instead listed 10 approved tribes with 2 non approved tribes of Levi and Joseph. Does anyone know why the tribes of Ephraim and Dan was left out and replaced with Levi and Joseph in Rev 7:7,8?

    The WTS is using the inclusion of 2 non approved tribes as a reason for treating this part of the srcipture(Rev 7:5-8) as symbolic. It however treats the 144,000 in Rev 7:4 as literal even when the Bible says the 144,000 is sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.

    My understanding of this scripture is that the 12 tribes of Israel symbolically represents the entire nations and the selection of equal number of person from each tribe of Israel symbolically shows that God is not partial but in every nation, the man that works rigtheousness is acceptable to him as found in Acts 10:34,35

    I find it more comfortable to treat the 144,000 and the tribes mentioned in this scripture to be symbolic rather than treating the 144,000 literal and the tribes symbolic as the WTS has done.

  • hideme
    hideme

    I wonder, too.

    WTBST says 144.000 has to be a real number, because the "great multitude, which no man could number " is also "real" (not symbolic)

    But then I wonder: The LAMB in the same verses is not a real LAMB, is it? It's symbolic, it's Jesus. The people standing before the throne is not real. The palms are not real. It's all symbolic language. So why...is it that 144.000 MUST be a real number???

    "After these things I saw, and behold, , out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;"

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Symbolic.

    I like asking JW's, who are the seven candlestands today? They won't say seven churches, because that means that Jehovah is addressing and working through churches today. I've heard the interpretation that the seven candlestands represent seven amorphous "groups" within the Watchtower organization. But that isn't very pleasant either, because that means they have a major cleaning-up work to complete.

    So why would seven candlestands be amorphous and unspecific, and 144,000 literal?

  • vitty
    vitty

    Is any number in Revelation to be taken literally ?

  • thinker
    thinker

    Here are the names of the tribes listed for the 144,000, in the order in which Revelation 7 lists them, and their corresponding Hebrew meanings as found in Scripture:

    1. Judah means "I will praise the Lord"
    2. Ruben means "He has looked on me"
    3. Gad means "Given good fortune"
    4. Asher means "Happy am I"
    5. Naphtali means "My wrestling"
    6. Manasseh means "Making me to forget"
    7. Simeon means "God hears me"
    8. Levi means "Joined to me"
    9. Issachar means "Purchased Me"
    10. Zebulun means "Dwelling"
    11. Joseph means "Will add to me"
    12. Benjamin means "Son of His right hand"

    "I will praise the Lord for he has looked on me and granted good fortune. I am happy because my wrestling, God is making me to forget. God hears me and is joined to me. He has purchased me a dwelling and will add to me, the Son of His right hand."

    These names presented in this order describe a brief story. The same is true of the OT name lists of Genesis and Chronicles. You might enjoy the book "Biblical Ciphers Unsealed" by Dale Robertson.

    thinker

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    Welcome to the forum Trem. Great question. Keep asking them. Along with prayer and study you will find satisfying answers. I don't just mean study of the WTS materials but study of various opinions and reasonings. I look forward to seeing more questions or your answers for others in the future.

    My answer: I believed my entire life that 144,000 was literal and could prove it decisively using revelation chapters 7 and 14 along with Luke 12:32; 1 Cor. 15: 40-53 and John 10:16. - - - - Now? I believe it's figurative.

    I feel foolish at stringing together separate verses that don't really prove my point and don't have complete correlation to each other. I not only bought it but I sold it to many others.

  • googlemagoogle
    googlemagoogle

    everything in revelation is literal. especially the scorpid tail horses with human heads.

    if 144.000 is literal, 666 is literal too... wtf?

  • Narkissos
  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    googlemagoogle:

    everything in revelation is literal. especially the scorpid tail horses with human heads.

    Don't be silly. They represent the "literature" produced by the Watchtower Society. See the book Revelation - It's Grand Climax at Hand for details.

    http://quotes.watchtower.ca/armies_of_cavalry.htm

  • gumby
    gumby
    everything in revelation is literal

    I wonder if Jesus will have a bigass sword stickin out of his mouth when he returns. If so......you can be sure it's him.

    Gumby

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