Posts by JosephMalik

48

Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness in

sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.

we've looked at rev.

4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?

JosephMalik

Hello Sarah,

Let’s start our search for the great crowd from the beginning, back to our roots. If we did that it would look like this:

3: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Can you see the great crowd in here anywhere? Can you see now why Eve would now need more children than originally intended in order to produce it. Can you see that much? Can you also see the seed of the Serpent that will exist along with it? If you can then you will able to see it through history and trace it’s development.

In time we will learn this:

Mt 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. Mt 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Can you see the great crowd now? Can you also see the seed of the Serpent or at least the most discernable part of it? And it can also be pictured like this:

Matt 225: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Can you see the great crowd now? Can you see the seed of the Serpent? It is still under development but we should be able to see this much of them both. If you can then you should be able to see them in the Kingdom itself where they will receive further guidance like this:

Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; . . . 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Many humans have already been weeded out. You do not see the seed of the Serpent now but it is there, hidden, having qualified to be resurrected. We will not know for sure exactly who is who until after the final test is ended. We know this much for now but the story has not yet ended.

Joseph

21

great tribulation

by ush419 in

what constitutes the great trib????

is this the poss coming war with israel and gog of magog or???

:

JosephMalik

ush419,

This is a trap the WT uses to keep you serving them. They do not know what event is meant by it but they give it a false meaning as if they are smart. They apply their false resoning on Matthew's tribulaton with John's Great Tribulaion as if they know who John was talking about. They really do not know the intended event being described in either verse but they have a lot to say about them. Few notice that it is no longer great tribulation in Mark or Luke but no one notices. Does anyone study using the Bible in the WT? Just letting you know not to fall for their false applications on this expression.

Joseph

48

Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness in

sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.

we've looked at rev.

4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?

JosephMalik

ex-icoc,

I know that it sounds insane. I thought I came up with something startling back in the 70's and wrote the WT. Well many others were writing WT HQ back then about the same thing. It was before the shake up. It also was one reason for the shakeup. Others read and studied and come up with nearly identical material I found out later. They wanted to know where I got it? It was hard to believe anyone could come up with it on their own. Then it turns out that the Church of God, Faith of Abraham with a Bible College in Atlanta teaches the very same thing. And they have no trinity, hell fire, immotal soul and all that. But they deny the pre-existence of our Lord. How could this happen and go on for so long? It all hinges around how we perceive words like heaven, which to a Jew means many things we do not recognize. And words like spirit which can mean nearly anything everytime it appears. Jewish use and understanding was the key. Root texts that firmed up what to believe should not be violated by symbolic texts. Much was unsaid in texts because it was ingrained in their theology and there was no need to spell it out, but Gentile and pagan beliefs that crept in later in Paul's day changed all that covering this up. And Christianity misses it now just like they missed Passover and our Lord's six day ordeal. So it may sound nuts, but it has proven itself over the years and has stood up to all challenges.

Joseph

48

Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness in

sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.

we've looked at rev.

4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?

JosephMalik

JC

said:

Christ returns to the earth for the second coming, serves for the 1000 years and throughout Judgment Day. But that's it. Then he goes back to his rightful place as Michael, the Archangel in Heaven. He's not leaving without his new Bride, who are "bought from the earth." Sorry.

JC,

Wrong again. Why? Because: 1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Christ does not take his Bride anywhere as it no longer belongs to Him. It is after all a human Bride

living here on earth just l ike He will be during the 1000 years. The Bride was bought from the earth for what reason? For life, not to be taken somewhere else as you teach. We know this because: 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? The dead were what? Human? Yes and so are the ones that rise that were so Baptized as shown. The dead rise and are not taken anywhere but offered to God. The word spiritual will not do it for you. Why? Because among it's many meanings it is also defined like this: 1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ 1a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul. The Bible teaches human resurrection which is terrestial and gaining immortality, incorruption, glory, power, spiritual since it is a gift from God. nothing else. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Only Christ who had a non-human seed in the first place could exist in both natures without contradiction. Sorry.

Joseph

48

Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness in

sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.

we've looked at rev.

4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?

JosephMalik

I would not agree with this, however, because the 1,440,000 (the actual number of the Bride class is 1,440,000, since the 10% root are natural Jews -- Isa. 6:13) become Christ's Bride.

JC,

What difference does it make if they are natural Jews or Jews and Gentiles mixed together? What difference does it mean if they are pictured as a Bride or not? Does any of this transport them to some unknown place and make them something other than human? No! This is simply a vision of better times to be found under better conditions than we have now. Nothing in all this violates root texts found in scripture.

JC said: Now the way the 1st resurrection works, is that it happens before Christ himself has his second coming.

Not according to scripture. The events take place at the same time notice:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Now that is pretty fast and it happens as a single contiguous event. This will happen for everyone good or bad that is restored to life. We also have: 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Now we learn that such dead in Christ shall rise first along with such living and not before as you teach. Why a distinction then when there was no such distinction made in 1 Cor 15:52? Because not everyone so resurrected at this time will be justified and considered as "having come to life." They must wait until the symbolic 1000 years ends and the final test is over. This is another Biblical teaching that many ignore. The doctrine of Justification, or are you saved as many shout? The rallying cry of many Baptists. For some this will take time. This is why Paul also said: 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. A resurrection and then the putting down of all rule and authority and power. That is the plan of Salvation we should know like the back of our hand.

JC said: Those resurrected for the first resurrection are transplanted like seeds into the bodies of imperfect followers of Christ in the modern age.

Bunk. No nice way to put it.

JC said: 40And there are

heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.

Paul is writing to refute what the Corinthians wrote to him first. And their letter contained false Jewish and Gentile beliefs like this one. He is kicking them and their teachings in the pants and on one notices? Most of 1 Cor. as Chapter 15 demonstrates is filled with such false doctrine which explains why he wrote the way he did. We do not become a new star or non-human when we die, something we still hear in modern times.

44 It is sown a

physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.

And the spiritual body means what? Invisible? Non human? No! But immortal, a gift from God the very thing Paul is teaching here..

JC said: 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: "Death is swallowed up forever."55"Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?"

The Immortality is still human. The incorruption is still human. The seed that made all this possible was human. The Death under discussion is human death. That is the point of Christ being raised from the dead. And that is the very reason the scriptures teach:

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Does the non-human Christ alone have immortality as seemingly taught here? No! Because in this same letter we learn that God has immortality as well. 1 Tim. 1:17. And there is no reason to think that the non-humans called angels are not immortal. They have been around a long time and are still here. But if we understand the verse in its proper context we learn that the still Human Christ alone only hath immortality. It is this immortality that we soon will have when He comes back in the clouds for the resurrection. And there are other such texts that teach: 2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: That is the truth we should be teaching. The teaching that humans will someday evolve to a higher level is taught in far eastern religions where they think that eventually they will reach a state of Nirvana. You will not find it in scripture.

Joseph

48

Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness in

sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.

we've looked at rev.

4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?

JosephMalik

Mrs. Witness,

What is it with all these verses in Revelation everyone seems to understand so well. Was all this a mystery until then? What were the followers teaching prior to this document? Where did they think they were going to be when they participated in the Kingdom? Does anyone know what they taught?Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Wow! After all that instruction too. And nothing changed after that either. We must get our feet firmly planted on the ground before we start interpreting signs and symbols. The Revelation does not change doctrine. It simply explains it on a higher level. So then take the word "heaven" that everyone likes so well. Does it mean a place and nothing else? Look at it first and it means:

AV-heaven 268, air 10, sky 5, heavenly + 1537; 284

1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it

1a) the universe, the world

1b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced

1c) the sidereal or starry heavens

2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

And heaven to a Jew was the same as saying God to a Gentile. You do not find this and other meanings in such dictionaries regarding heaven which also was used for governments and authority. They were kept secret it seems. Why then do so many jump to conclusions not supported by non-symbolic texts like? Joh 11:24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Since when and where did our hope go from living eternally here on earth as a human being to being made into a non-human creature that will live somewhere else? Nowhere! For such reasons our Lord became human to raise humans once again. For such reason our Lord will return as a human to rule humans that will exist with him. Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. For such reason we finally learn even in the visions everyone likes so well that: 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." That is what we should be teaching as that is what Jesus and the apostles believed as well.

No one will go to a place called heaven, nor will any non-spirit creatures be created from human ones because of our Lord’s sacrifice. The Kingdom is for human beings that will dwell with God right here on earth just as intended in the first place.

Joseph

139

IS IT FAIR TO PAY THE SAME DEBT TWICE?? Divine Justice...

by Terry in

thinking out loud.... .

justice.. topics that need discussing.

justice is getting what you deserve.

JosephMalik

I am guessing you were once an active JW. Am I right?

When you were knocking on doors and bringing the "good news" to the householders you simply knew you were preaching the Truth, right?

Terry,

Wrong. I always had doubts but I knew that the apostles did not always see eye to eye. Where then was the line? What did it take to "have the truth" as the saying goes. I lost discussions at the door and took time to resolve them. They turned out to be wrong but error defeating error was not a good thing and kept me in the dark. They were smart people but wrong. I debated with Bowman and others. Walter Martin called for a discussion. He was wrong and I refuted him. Reminds me of this thread. This helped but I still wondered and studied. I asked questions and finally wrote the book. The WT did not have the truth. They had more error than truth and much of it was destructive. They were on the wrong side like the others. You do not see me at such doors anymore.

Terry said: Is what you are saying to me the same Truth or a different Truth than back then at the door holding a Watchtower magazine?

The truth never changed. It simply took me some time to catch on. Now I know that all that was expected of anyone to gain Paradise was simply to be a decent human being. To gain the Kingdom takes a little more. And doctrine does matter to achieve this higher calling. Can we still have something wrong. Perhaps but not the very visible errors that most are making now. When pointed out they should always be corrected. Like finding a jem of greater quality than what you already have. That is the road we should take.

Terry said: The reason I ask is that being "right" and being "wrong" can feel like the same thing depending on where you are on the calendar.

Yes it can. It may hurt but I am glad when an error is brought to my attention. I correct my work and keep it updated.

Terry said: Are you just as convinced now as you were back then?

Back then I was coming out of Catholicism and was really in the dark. The WT kept me in the dark. Yes, I am convinced but based on what I have seen and learned myself. And I expect nothing of anyone other than human decency. If they offer good biblical information and/or support the Faith even better.

Joseph

139

IS IT FAIR TO PAY THE SAME DEBT TWICE?? Divine Justice...

by Terry in

thinking out loud.... .

justice.. topics that need discussing.

justice is getting what you deserve.

JosephMalik

I've made no claims beyond what your friendly neighborhood doctor would tell you.

Terry,

Wrong again. At least you are consistent. My friendly neighborhood doctor told me that he cannot create life. Your definitions are wrong. And I simply leave the rest for others to see. It is not necessary to refute every argument or enlighten every person. The reasoing goes like this: Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Joseph

139

IS IT FAIR TO PAY THE SAME DEBT TWICE?? Divine Justice...

by Terry in

thinking out loud.... .

justice.. topics that need discussing.

justice is getting what you deserve.

JosephMalik

Terry,

Just more assumptions not facts. No proof just imaginary ideas and we are supposed to believe you?

Can you take the things you are talking about like electricity and chemical reactions and make life? No! My oh my, imagine that. So you really know nothing and understand none of this. That is the way I see it. Just how do you think you can enlighten others?

Joseph

16

HOW CAN I FIND THE OLD H2O OR ITS ARCHIVES?

by Seeker4 in

i used to post there a lot, and would like to check out some of those old posts.

.

anyone know where h2o is or where the archives can be found?

JosephMalik

Hello Lady,

I already did this but it seems to have died out with time. Yes, I can send someone a copy of the CD's so that they can make the data available to others. They are arranged with the messages in folders containing 10K messages each. Then threads are arranged to point to the correct folder and message number so that it seems as if you are online and working in realtime. Seems simple, but 10K blocks of messages will pull down a computer to a crawl if loaded on a HD. Fortunately the system works off the CD roms and is very fast. So I guess it depends on who wants to do the job. My email works ok.

Joseph