Posts by JosephMalik

32

Your views of the headship

by greenie in

i've heard a little about this business, but i'm curious as to what you all think about it.

jw and exjw women - do you/did you believe it and abide by it?

jw and exjw men - do you still believe it?

JosephMalik

And is there somewhere that the letter Paul is responding to is available?

Greenie,

The only place I know is in 1 Cor. itself. You have to read between the lines a bit but when Paul says things like: 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? Now can you see this reference to their letter? Or; 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: Can you see this reference to their comments now? Then Paul handles this problem another way look: 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: Paul is taking things they wrote to about to him and redirects their focus to us as human beings being transformed is ways that cause us to become the immortal human beings that conquer death. For man can only sow a human seed and such other seeds and celestial things are irrelevant. He rejects their thinking.

Joseph

32

Your views of the headship

by greenie in

i've heard a little about this business, but i'm curious as to what you all think about it.

jw and exjw women - do you/did you believe it and abide by it?

jw and exjw men - do you still believe it?

JosephMalik

Do you mean that Paul didn't mean all the things he wrote to the Corinthians?

greenie,

What is missed is what Paul was doing when he wrote to the Corinthians. In it after a long introduction he began to answer the letter they wrote to him teaching by teaching. If we are careful, we can see him quoting or alluding to their views and correcting them. He did something similar with the Ephesians. Mostly it was the Jews in Corinth that were following the Law the way James and the Jerusalem congregation was doing causing Paul a great deal of trouble. There were also some things in their letter that looked like Gentile views on astrology and the resurrection as well posted to him. And we know about the way they handled the meals in remembrance of our Lord's death which was a mess that he had to deal with. Since Paul is correcting them throughout this letter referencing their views in it we should not attribute every word to Paul. Sometimes the personal pronoun I was simply a direct quote from their letter and does not apply to Paul. This was noticed by scholars and a note at the beginning of chapter 8 where this letter was still being taken apart by Paul said:

In this chapter the apostle proceeds to consider the case of eating things offered to idols, which, though an indifferent thing, was abused by many in the Corinthian church, to the scandal and hurt of weak Christians; wherefore the apostle dissuades from the use of it, and refutes the arguments which were used by them in defence of their practice. John Gill's expositor.

This went on an on throughout 1 Cor. and if we are looking for such arguments, we can see them for ourselves. Otherwise we will take the Corinthians side the way the Watchtower does. The lack of punctuation and Paul's style of writing hides it from us. We know a great deal about Paul's struggle with the Jerusalem congregation from Acts chapters 15 and 21 and the views they were spreading with regard to the Law and circumcision. Peter had to step in and say: 2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. The best history book you can read then would be the scriptures themselves where all this was brought out for us. You see Peter finally took Paul's side of the arguments during his ministry and supported him against such Jewish and pagan views.

Joseph

32

Your views of the headship

by greenie in

i've heard a little about this business, but i'm curious as to what you all think about it.

jw and exjw women - do you/did you believe it and abide by it?

jw and exjw men - do you still believe it?

JosephMalik

Some may prefer to parse these verses to the Ephesians by placing the empty words starting at verse 21 instead of verse 18 but the point is the same depending upon which translation you prefer.

Joseph

32

Your views of the headship

by greenie in

i've heard a little about this business, but i'm curious as to what you all think about it.

jw and exjw women - do you/did you believe it and abide by it?

jw and exjw men - do you still believe it?

JosephMalik

The Watchtower simply does not get it as YNOT shows us here. Perhaps they cannot read or understand how Paul wrote? But the problem existed throughout the territories of Paul and he used different ways to handle it even going to the extreme of appointing elders and giving men like Timothy his Apostolic authority to put a stop to it by making such appointments through them.

Since Paul wrote about the position of women to the Corinthians and to Timothy we should not be surprised to find him including this same information in his letter to the Ephesians as well. The problems in Ephesus were very much the same as they were in Corinth and elsewhere. Men, deceivers with empty words (Ephesians 5:6,12) were there as well. Paul would now take the lead in reproving and exposing such men (vs 13-14) setting an example for them to follow. After giving advice to be watchful, sober, spiritually alert and happy, he gives the following word-for-word dissertation with this introduction of what such false teaching consist of:

The introduction:

15 So keep strict watch that how YOU walk is not as unwise but as wise [persons], 16 buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked. 17 On this account cease becoming unreasonable, but go on perceiving what the will of Jehovah is. [Ephesians 5:15-17]

The empty words:

18 Also, do not be getting drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but keep getting filled with spirit, 19 speaking to yourselves with psalms and praises to God and spiritual songs, singing and accompanying yourselves with music in YOUR hearts to Jehovah, 20 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father. 21 Be in subjection to one another in fear of Christ. 22 Let wives be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord, 23 because a husband is head of his wife as the Christ also is head of the congregation, he being a savior of [this] body. 24 In fact, as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, so let wives also be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, continue loving YOUR wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and delivered up himself for it, 26 that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means of the word, 27 that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This sacred secret is great. [Ephesians 5:18-32, NWT]

A return to reality with:

. . . Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation. 33 Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband. [Ephesians 5:32-33, NWT]

The doctrine of such deceivers was offered to the Ephesians with much more finesse than the manner in which it was presented to the Corinthians. The main points are however the same, seemingly good behavior with emphasis upon the LAW which they call "spirit", the "psalms" mainly works of David, the subjection of the “woman” in the Faith to the man. The blame for it all is placed on “Christ” as if they are honoring Him in all this and have His approval. The carrot is held out that this will be good for the woman in the long run and that the husband will be supportive of the wife. See also 1Ti 2:15 And their claim that all this is a sacred secret as if it comes from God himself, they being the revealers of His will. Once again the transitional phraseology of Paul stands out as he isolates the false teachings with “Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation,” as he considers this subject with the Ephesians. Mixed in with such lies are some truth, so Paul simply extracts it, (Nevertheless), which in effect places the men and woman on equal footing just as verse 21 stated all along. Thus "deep respect" stands in sharp contrast with "subjection of wives" and all the rest of their theology is also fully exposed for the Ephesians to see.

Joseph

32

Your views of the headship

by greenie in

i've heard a little about this business, but i'm curious as to what you all think about it.

jw and exjw women - do you/did you believe it and abide by it?

jw and exjw men - do you still believe it?

JosephMalik

1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

While this sounds like a biblical command from Paul, it is actually a Corinthian doctrine that Paul will refute and correct. He is still quoting from the letter they sent him as mentioned in chapter 7 verse 1. Here a few verses later on this quote from it shown above Paul corrects their statements on women.

1Cor 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Women are equal in the faith even if men do not like the idea and think the way the Corinthians did back them. Mostly Jewish custom that has no place in the faith.

Joseph

8

2nd Coming of Christ

by bobld in

jw
friends

rev ch.1: 7 see,he comes amid the clouds!every eye shall see him,even those who pierced him.does that mean j.c.'s 2nd coming is after the resurrection?otherwise how could those who pierced him,see him.do not give me the b.s.

that those who pierced him refers to persecution of the anointed ones,that were identified in 1879,1914,1918,1919,1935 2000,2007,2008,2009.or "see" in the sense of"discern"as told by the wbts.. bob.

JosephMalik

Does that mean J.C.'s 2nd coming is after the resurrection? Otherwise how could those who pierced him see him.

Bob,

That is pretty much the way I see this prophetic remark as well. It is not so much after, but historically one of many things that takes place in a Kingdom on earth restored at that time. The world will be filled by (immortal) humans taken from the Nations (sheep) and not everyone of them will have a successful outcome in this Kingdom. Death in the sense of destruction instead of the sleep from which humans will be re-created and Justified takes place then.

A visual description of conditions at that time was given like this: Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. The Kingdom gives mankind a second chance but it is also a time for mans final Judgement. Another way to understand such conditions in the Kingdom is like this: 1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? Jews were messengers (angels) for this Kingdom demonstrating it during their lives so now it is used as a sacred name for them. Special people like the ones standing before our Lord were such angels when he said those prophetic words. Then again anyone with basic human decency that was selected (from the Nations) and raised by our Lord for any reason to be in this Kingdom sent a message during their lives that qualified them to be in it. Matt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. After all our Lord did die for everyone.

Joseph

9

Jesus, Son of Man

by startingover in

why is jesus referred to by that term?

never made any sense to me..

JosephMalik

Son of Man simply means human being. In the OT texts humans of some importance such as prophets were called son of man, and prophetically it was used in Daniel to describe the humanity of our human Savior. In NT texts it is used of the human that will return to earth once again to destroy evil humanity and cleanse the earth much like the way the flood did. It is this very humanity, this flesh with the sacrificed sinless life it contained that makes our redemption as human beings possible, and it is just such a humanity without sin that the resurrection will restore to those worthy of it. It dispells the idea that humans will become non-humans in the kingdom of God as a non-human did not die for us.

Joseph

17

Creation vs materialising

by smiddy in

this is a question that always puzzled me when i was a beleiver......in gen.chapt.6 where the sons of the true god began to notice the daughters of men and began taking them as wives,producing the nephilim,a hybrid race man/angel,the men of fame,what exactly is the difference between a created human being as in adam,and a materialised being??

?from an angel?

?one who is evidently in opposition to jehovah??

JosephMalik

Narkissos,

Heaven in its base meaning simply means the sky above our heads. 1) heaven, heavens, sky 1a) visible heavens, sky Ge 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Humans now go there all the time when they travel in Aircraft or spacecraft. Enoch is thought to have gone there according to scripture somehow and Christ went there visibly as well and will return from there somehow. The rest is speculation as to what the word heaven means or what became of them in the process or afterwards. Is it the abode of God literally or figuratively. Context is the key we often miss. Heaven also means other things like God himself or God approved actions depicting authority that is offered to us by God and human assumptions carry the tale from there. We also find such grand words as you show that are are put forth to make an argument that humanity cannot see or understand. Some of it is the product of our imagination. Some of it was penned to uplift our mind and strengthen our hope in the future of mankind. Jewish use of the word seldom resembled our present day use of it. Enoch's background, someone that had no prior existence other than human, adds no clarity to what our Lord did at his ascension other that this: Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Nothing, zip.

Leolaia,

Thanks for the clarity. The clothing be it a metaphor or not did play a part in the events that took place and one could conceal their identity with it but heavenly things are not what many perceive today. The word heaven and its use is poorly understood. As to what happened to Jesus during his ascension literally after He passed from sight we only know that his humanity was not lost to us, he could still be identified as a man even with the glory he now had restored to Him and at His coming the humanity he still has will also be restored to us once again in His Kingdom.

Joseph

17

Creation vs materialising

by smiddy in

this is a question that always puzzled me when i was a beleiver......in gen.chapt.6 where the sons of the true god began to notice the daughters of men and began taking them as wives,producing the nephilim,a hybrid race man/angel,the men of fame,what exactly is the difference between a created human being as in adam,and a materialised being??

?from an angel?

?one who is evidently in opposition to jehovah??

JosephMalik

Narkissos,

The Son of Man did ascend up to heaven, and only the Son of Man did at the time John wrote. That is what John is saying. He is not saying that the Son of Man ascended up to heaven as the Son of Man before becoming flesh. The Word perhaps but not the Son of Man. Furthermore we do not see any texts that teach that some of us ever will ascend to heaven the way Jesus did. After all we are not qualified to do that the way Jesus was when He said: Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. What we do know is that Christ will return as a human once again to raise the dead and administer his kingdom. Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. And: Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Joseph

104

New Light: Don't hold hands during prayers

by RR in

from the watchtower november 15 study edition.. 19 when we are being represented in public prayer, we need to display reverential "fear of god.

" (1 pet 2:17) there may be a proper time and place for some actions that would be inappropriate at a christian meeting.

(eccl 3:1) for instance, suppose someone sought to have all in a group link arms or hold hands during prayer.

JosephMalik

SS,

So saith the Watchtower Talmud.

Joseph