Posts by Jr

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

In conjunction with my post right before this one:

You said,

quote:
"Jehovah made the promise to Abraham. This promise was a unilateral covenant that Jehovah made with Abraham. In other words there was only one side that agreed to do something.

There was no condition imposed on Abraham."

And you are correct! But, you forget, there are two covenants involved here. TWO!! One to Abraham, the unilateral covenanat. Unconditional!! correct! And I quote, ", “To your seed I am going to give this land” (Gen. 12:7) Later Jehovah extended it as follows, “that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld you son, your only one, I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seedlike the stars of the heavens and like the grains of the sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.” (Gen. 22:16-18) This involved an inheritance to his seed or seeds. Capeesh?? :) Unconditional!!! But, please listen very carefully. "He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal. 3:14

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:29

Can you hear that????? Abrahams promise goes to the gentiles, his seed. Is that difficult to understand??

Now #2: the covenant through the Law. “ Now if you strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Exodus 19:5,6) Need I say more... Yep, IF THEN. Ummmmm!!!

JR

Edited by - Jr on 10 March 2001 11:18:15

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Emilliano,

Romans 11:1,2, “God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized. Why, do you not know what the scripture says in connection with Elijah, as he pleads with God against Israel?...(verse 14) , “if I may by any means incite my on flesh to jealousy and save some from among them”.
Now if you look at the cross reference of verse 2(e), you will see it points to 1 Kings 19:10. There it clearly explains the context. Please listen. And I quote, "To this he said: "I have been absolutely jealous for Jehovah the God of armies; for the sons of Israel have left your covenant, your altars they have torn down, and your prophets they have killed with the sword..." This clearly qualifies Paul’s statement. No, Jehovah did not reject his people, they rejected him! No, Jehovah did not go back on his promise, they did. So, you can't use this to show Jehovah will not disown this people. It is clearly speaking about the covenant through the law, not Abrahams covenant. They broke this covenant. Paul is explaining it himself. “save some from among them”. Is that so difficult to see?

…(verse 23), “They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again”.
Yes, God is able to graft them back in. And God would have loved to do so. He would have loved to have as many natural Jews repent and be apart of the tree as possible. But, like Jesus said at Matt 23:37,38, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her, -how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look, Your house is abandoned to you." So, Jehovah will accept them now only on an individual basis. They are now in the same situation the nations are in. Who ever wants to serve God, can. They will be grafted in. Okay? But, as a nation, they have lost the privilege of being exclusively used by Jehovah for this purpose.
…(verse 26) , “and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliver will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob.” Yes, the deliver will come out of Zion, the “new Zion”. The new “Israel”, is being spoken of here. The one Jehovah considers “Israel”.
"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal. 3:14
Answer #1

Next: Ezekiel 36 - replacing Israel with “Spiritual Israel” sounds good to me. Like I said, it can apply to who ever Jehovah wants it to. It's his called. And the way the scripture indicate, it's Spiritual Israel.

JR

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Emiliano,

Your whole argument is based on the simple observation that whenever we see Israel in the bible, it's talking about natural Israel. This is a shallow assumption. If this is so, the bible has no mystery to it. There would be no need for interpretation. In other words, people of the nations, that don't know or care about Jehovah, would understand prophecy. Jehovah would have no room to do his personal business. Satan attempted to limit Jehovahs hand. That's what Satan attempted with Adam and Eve. Satan knew Jehovah would either kill them or let them live. Either way Satan saw Jehovahs defeat. Jehovah said he would kill them, but Satan thought he had created a "checkmate" situation. Satan did not realize Jehovah's power or wisdom. He didn't think Jehovah would accept sinful humans as servants. He didn't see his ability to foresee the future and work events out over time. Satan didn't think Jehovah could accept this. But he did! And he worked with it to provide the means for their redemption. Jehovah's patience and wisdom out maneuvered Satan. Jehovah won't allow himself to be limited to a simple promise made to sinful humans. He can't. He won't. Where he will keep his promise, he will not be limited. He'll make a way out for himself, in order to be the victor and not be forced to accept disloyalty. Can't you imagine the bad taste in his mouth if he had to accept natural Israel back, only because he promised it. That is why he says, "For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” He will not be limited. His wisdom and creativity give him the ability to make other options. "For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” So many scriptures show us this is what has happened.
"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal. 3:14

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:29

It's Scriptures like this that makes the promise secondary. He will keep it. But not the way you might think.

JR

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Emiliano,
You are so mind stuck on the WT; nobody said anything about the WT this whole discussion, but you. We know the deal!! We understand the situation more than you can imagine. You can't teach us anything, believe me. We have patiently discussed the bible with you, while you've continued to insult us and any affiliation we've had with the Wt. But we have not attacked you personally. We have been interested in a reasonable discussion on a very pertinent subject. But we still don't see any sound scriptural support for your argument.
If you understood the WT so much, you would see that we don't believe everything the WT teaches. We are not stuck on them. We know the deal. But, we do see them as God's people. The WT has never been authorized to prophecy. They presumptiously took this upon themselves. They do not have this authority , which parallels with the Pharisees of Jesus day. They only serve as custodians.

JR

Edited by - Jr on 9 March 2001 18:4:31

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Bjc2012,
Your understanding and knowledge of the scripture are indeed quite impressive. It is this knowledge, accurate knowledge, that leads one to know Jehovah, the true God, his debt and wisdom. When we look at the scripture at face value, we can only be fooled by Jehovah. If he wanted his plan to be understood by all men, at all times, he would have made it with no hidden fixtures.. But he didn't! That's why Daniel was told to seal up the book til the time of the end. Jehovah is the great revealer of prophecy. Gen 40:7-9," ...Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God?..." These scripture have to be revealed by him. No, they cannot be read norunderstood with a simple eye. It is not expected that someone can understand his plan without direct revelation from Jehovah. But, what gets me is the haughtiness associated with the presumption that Jehovah has no choice, no options. As you mentioned at Matthew 3:9, “And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” Yes, Jehovah can manufacture a seed and use it to fulfill his promise to Abraham.

JR

7

"The nations will know"

by Jr in

no doubt you are familiar with the text at eze.

36:23. i quote, and the nations will have to know that i am jehovah, is the utterance of the sovereign lord jehovah.

it was used as a title for one of the study publications years ago.

Jr

Hi,
that's quite some fact! It shows how much Jehovah has to accomplish by other means.

JR

That's interesting. All of my comments are coming in front of yours.???

Edited by - Jr on 9 March 2001 14:43:6

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Emiliano,

What is so difficult to understand here?

"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal. 3:14

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:29

Jehovah defines who Israel is. If he decided to make another provision through the gentiles, so be it. You have to accept it. Your determination to show otherwise shows no respect for him or his word.

JR

Edited by - Jr on 9 March 2001 14:26:52

5

If the society says "JUMP" do you ASK...

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

not every jw is thick.

in fact i'd say that most of them are just misguided.. still, i was wondering how many types of jw we could define according to their response to a simple, direct instruction from the society.. let's say this fictional directive from the gb is: "jump"!.

what responses would various jw's give?.

Jr

LOL!!

JR

7

Organisational Unity or Personal Integrity

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

which do you consider to be more important, personal integrity or organisational unity?.

9 however, uri'ah lay down at the entrance of the kings house with all the other servants of his lord, and he did not go down to his own house.

nevertheless, he went out in the evening to lie down on his bed with the servants of his lord, and to his own house he did not go down.

Jr

Hello,
all of us know the basic principles and commands laid out in the scripture. One of the commands is not to commit "idolatry". That is exactly what we have done when we place the honor and obedience of the "Society" above or beside that of Jehovah. Note Jehovah's words, "When they placed their threshold next to my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them, they defiled my holy name by their detestable practices. So I destroyed them in my anger."(Ezekiel 43:7-9) Jehovah is incensed when we allow others to take his honor away. Well, we might say that we still worship Jehovah. But, the fact is Baal worship was practiced in Israel while under the direction and leadership of the kings of Israel. Idolatry can coexist with the worship of Jehovah. The Israelites did not abandon Jehovah completely. They included Baal worship because Baal was associated with prosperity. They wanted to gain riches along with their service to Jehovah.
We have allowed "Mother" Bethel to dictate our beliefs and decisions, even when it conflicted with the bible. They told us not to talk to our family if they disfellowship them. That has no scriptural support.(please view the subject Shunning in 'Bible research-Mar 6) If someone shows us something in the bible that appears to be scriptural, we say, well I can't accept that. It doesn’t come from "Mother".
We have been guilty of idolatry. This is a serious situation to be in. The question is, what do we do now? Hebrews 11:26,27 says, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." We were taught not to commit idolatry. Did we listen? Do we still call her "Mother" in our heart? What do we do now!!??

JR

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Emiliano,
you said:

quote:
You are totaly ignoring the post on Ezequiel 36

Ezekiel 36 can apply to natural Israel or Spiritual Israel depending on her "identity". That is what this discussion is about, her "identity".
Can you please answer MDS's question above??

JR