Posts by debator

36

586/7 vs. 607 (another one) Critique my letter please....

by bigmouth in

jw
friends

since moving back to another town i've met up with an elder i knew from way back.

(i met him coming out of a salvation army shop.).

he visited me at home a few weeks ago, and as i seem to be getting more comfortable at fading i invited him in and told him i was very concerned over the 607 bce.

debator

Hi Joey jo jo

I certainly haven't done the research into this that thirdwitness has.

For the record witnesses say and I agree that any interpretation of Bible prophecy is only a "Ccurrent understanding" prophecy is subjective. We have to research the Bible and correlate that with fulfillment in the world around us so it is not an exact science (nor is it meant to be) but unity demands we have to be in agreement with each other as Christians and I think the "times" prophecy is a solid one.

For the record others throughout history have recognised it's significance as a prophecy but haven't beed able to connect all the dots. I could be wrong but I think Martin Luther also attempted chronology on "times"

The use of "times" by Daniel and Jesus who uniquely mentions "Daniel" as a bible book and it's usage in Revelation by John I think is too significant to ignore.

secular evidence apposing the bible is simply one alternate source from stone tablets that is liable to human error but that is rarely mentioned. Daniels time frames are known to be accurate.

The bible holds a lot of prophecies as Jesus himself revealed which "tense" is never really an issue since Jesus fulfilled prophecies written about David apparently for David himself in the present, past or future tense.

Bible chronology is an established biblical practise from Daniel itself by the jews that were in expectation of Jesus as messiah from it.

"lowliest" is in it's first fulfilment a reference to king Neb a singular person. I'm surprised some translations make it plural anyway?

Did that answer your points Joey?

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi John1

Thank you. I will look out for it. Although I've been totally convinced since I found out about the sahidic coptic which really was the nail in the coffin for trinitarians using this as a proof text. It was nice that a third century transcript upholds the witnesses on this, a confirmation of their stand with the NWT rendition of John 1:1c.

36

586/7 vs. 607 (another one) Critique my letter please....

by bigmouth in

jw
friends

since moving back to another town i've met up with an elder i knew from way back.

(i met him coming out of a salvation army shop.).

he visited me at home a few weeks ago, and as i seem to be getting more comfortable at fading i invited him in and told him i was very concerned over the 607 bce.

debator

Third witness himself set forth a thorough write up of this topic.

http://thirdwitness.com/607_BCE/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/

What people arguing over this issue rarely mention is that this is one where the Bible is said to be inacurate by the other side not just the witnesses.

Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, believe something the secular historians do not. We believe the Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God, so we take the Bible's prophecies into account when calculating ancient chronology.

The prophet Daniel tells us, “Jerusalem will lie in ruins for seventy years.” (Daniel 9:2, Contemporary English Translation) However, the secular chronology disagrees with the Bible. Their chronology allows only fifty years – not seventy – from 587 BCE when Jerusalem was supposed to be destroyed, until the Jews returned home in 537 BCE.

Josephus's account

Although his book isn't part of the Bible, his account of the event does fill in some of the blanks and agrees with the Biblical account.

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

debator

Hi Psacra

Horama while it can be translated "seen" It's main slant is always that of being a vision. In it's other uses in the bible it always pertains to a visions happening.

Acts 11:5

5 "I was in the city of Joppa praying ; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky ; and it came right down to me,

Acts 12:9

9 And he went out and continued to follow, and he did not know that what was being done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision.

Acts 16:9-10

9 A vision appeared to Paul in the night : a man of Macedonia was standing and appealing to him, and saying, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." 10 When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

It appears 12 times in the greek scriptures and translated "vision" 11 out 12 times. Reflecting this most bible translate this as "vision" in mathew. No one doubts Jesus is literally saying and meaning "vision" in this verse.

86

Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm in

jw
friends

well, i know its a bit self-serving since i allready posted this in jwfacts thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199939/1/watchtower-images-required, but i think its quite funny and things have been kind of serious around here for the past couple of weeks.. it seem to me that when jahs chanel have desided (im kidding, they has been told) the one and true god really hate christmas and will kill you in nasty ways if you go ahead and celebrate it, it provide a pretty compelling case for not celebrating christmas.

but the governing body can make an even stronger case than that: not only will jesus cry and clice you up if you celebrate christmas, you will also have a really bad time.

wow!.

debator

Hi ding

Celebrating an actual Birth event is normal to all societies but translating this to an annual celebration on a different date (four inspired gospels fail to mention the real date). Picking a pagan feastday, keeping all it's practices and trying to put a Christian label on it simply doesn't work.

If it did we wouldn't have the majority of people today knowing Christmas is more about the fictional bearded Santa and german evergreen trees than Jesus. Knowing halloween is more about ghosts and ghouls rather than dead Saints, knowing Easter (from the goddess Eostre ) is more about rabbits and chocolate eggs rather than Jesus's death.

We will not whitewash pagan celebrations that early Christians (including Jesus) did not celebrate because they did not mistake leniency over Jewish festivals for jews turned Christians as a licence to take on pagan practices and feastdays. When Gentiles became Christians they got rid of their pagan ways and rejected the gods they used to worship and celebrate.

Acts 19:24-27

24 A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought in no little business for the craftsmen. 25 He called them together, along with the workmen in related trades, and said: "Men, you know we receive a good income from this business. 26 And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made gods are no gods at all. 27There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty."

86

Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm in

jw
friends

well, i know its a bit self-serving since i allready posted this in jwfacts thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199939/1/watchtower-images-required, but i think its quite funny and things have been kind of serious around here for the past couple of weeks.. it seem to me that when jahs chanel have desided (im kidding, they has been told) the one and true god really hate christmas and will kill you in nasty ways if you go ahead and celebrate it, it provide a pretty compelling case for not celebrating christmas.

but the governing body can make an even stronger case than that: not only will jesus cry and clice you up if you celebrate christmas, you will also have a really bad time.

wow!.

debator

Hi Meeting Junkie

I see a group of men dealing with the same problems we have now and that is a people that resist unity and like to cause division and create their own versions of the truths from God twisting them to their personal opinions.

Jesus, Paul and other Christians saw and predicted this.

Acts 20:28-30 (New International Version)

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. [a] Be shepherds of the church of God, [b] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

Romans 16:17
I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

2 Thessalonians 2:7

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work;

2 Thessalonians 2:15

15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings [a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

There was no acceptance of factions but a young religion trying to gather two different groups together gentiles and christians in unity.

Ephesians 4:13
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

If it was okay for people to believe anything and do anything why the need for the letters after the Gospels? Why the need for Paul and the instructions for the congregations as a whole?

History records what Christianity became sadly but the bible shows what we are meant to be.

86

Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm in

jw
friends

well, i know its a bit self-serving since i allready posted this in jwfacts thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199939/1/watchtower-images-required, but i think its quite funny and things have been kind of serious around here for the past couple of weeks.. it seem to me that when jahs chanel have desided (im kidding, they has been told) the one and true god really hate christmas and will kill you in nasty ways if you go ahead and celebrate it, it provide a pretty compelling case for not celebrating christmas.

but the governing body can make an even stronger case than that: not only will jesus cry and clice you up if you celebrate christmas, you will also have a really bad time.

wow!.

debator

Wingcommander

You need to research claims like this,

The Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah, is a Jewish holiday. It is also known as the Festival of Lights.

Hanukkah is celebrated during the Hebrew month of Kislev (November or December). It begins on day 25 of Kislev and lasts for 8 days.

After regaining the Temple, it was cleansed by the Maccabees, cleared of all Greek idolatry, and readied for rededicated. The rededication of the Temple to God took place in the year 165 BC, on the 25th day of the Hebrew month called Kislev.

It is a later addition to Jewish celebration but it is a purely Jewish celebration.

86

Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm in

jw
friends

well, i know its a bit self-serving since i allready posted this in jwfacts thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199939/1/watchtower-images-required, but i think its quite funny and things have been kind of serious around here for the past couple of weeks.. it seem to me that when jahs chanel have desided (im kidding, they has been told) the one and true god really hate christmas and will kill you in nasty ways if you go ahead and celebrate it, it provide a pretty compelling case for not celebrating christmas.

but the governing body can make an even stronger case than that: not only will jesus cry and clice you up if you celebrate christmas, you will also have a really bad time.

wow!.

debator

It is a matter of Public historical record that devout Jews didn't celebrate Birthdays and that early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays either. That is why there is no mention of them in the bible other than as reference to pagan celebrations by pagans or those influenced by pagans.

As psacra points out what Jesus did is a matter of public record in four Gospels and includes his participation in certain Jewish festivals but never Birthdays.

It wasn't till the third century under Roman pagan influence that Christians started celebrating birthdays.

Pretending that this is not the case is just running against biblical and historically known facts. If you wish to deny these known facts then you are only deluding yourselves.

86

Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm in

jw
friends

well, i know its a bit self-serving since i allready posted this in jwfacts thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199939/1/watchtower-images-required, but i think its quite funny and things have been kind of serious around here for the past couple of weeks.. it seem to me that when jahs chanel have desided (im kidding, they has been told) the one and true god really hate christmas and will kill you in nasty ways if you go ahead and celebrate it, it provide a pretty compelling case for not celebrating christmas.

but the governing body can make an even stronger case than that: not only will jesus cry and clice you up if you celebrate christmas, you will also have a really bad time.

wow!.

debator

Hi xchange

false analogy

Xbox's weren't around then Birthdays were. Jesus knew his cousin was beheaded and murdered at a pagan birthday celebration. Jesus saw these celebrations and felt no need to do them, why would anyone do differently?

86

Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm in

jw
friends

well, i know its a bit self-serving since i allready posted this in jwfacts thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199939/1/watchtower-images-required, but i think its quite funny and things have been kind of serious around here for the past couple of weeks.. it seem to me that when jahs chanel have desided (im kidding, they has been told) the one and true god really hate christmas and will kill you in nasty ways if you go ahead and celebrate it, it provide a pretty compelling case for not celebrating christmas.

but the governing body can make an even stronger case than that: not only will jesus cry and clice you up if you celebrate christmas, you will also have a really bad time.

wow!.

debator

If you want my personal opinion of Christmas I think Satan is not so subtly thumbing his nose at Jesus with it.

Basically saying "I can get people to celebrate satan-nalia instead. I can make them worship a fictional coke advert called Satan oops Santa and do it on a celebration where your beloved cousin who baptised you was murdered and beheaded. I can make them get drunk and sinful all in your name. Then do it again on New year a few days later. I can make them spend more money than they can afford, making spending a huge part of it, knowing how much you dislike the 'love of money'".

No thanks Satan can keep his celebration it holds no appeal. Upbuilding Family gatherings, loving one another can all be done without paying Satan his due.

I use pagan built Roman Roads too there is lot of difference between stuff set up by the governments around aka roads and calenders (caesars things) that we have to use and having freedom to choose what we recognise and celebrate.