Can you say 2 sets of scales-
when it comes to an adult having the freedom to choose his own reading material notice what the wt says for NONJW
*** yb78 p. 140 Spain ***
. Through the press and from the pulpit the people were warned not to read The Watch Tower.
*** w56 6/15 p. 365 Waging the Right Warfare ***
This is not surprising, since many are instructed not to read publications concerning the Bible unless they are first approved by the church
Yep the wt points out that when RELIGIONS tell their members what not to read it is a bad thing, esp if they are being told not to read the wt.
When other religions refer to the wt printed material as apostate or bad material-- wt take offense,
Yet as you can see below NOTICE WHAT they say to adult jw who want to choose thier own reading material
can you say 2 sets of scales
yes others should be allowed to freely and openly examine their faith but jw (like the ones here) must sneek around under the cover of darkness and Anonymity to even discuss issues involved in their religion
one would think that after awhile some jw would reconize, why is it i as a grown man can;t discuss these issues openly among fellow jw
that really should be a red flag-
when you take a college class and tell the class that you were part of a group that forbide open and free discussions, you always get some student from some commuinist or dictator type country who will speak up and say
i know all about that, my dad was killed, etc
yet jw never think about it, jw have legally done more for the rights of free speech than ANY RELIGIOUS GROUP in america from all that i have read, yet they deny the very freedoms they fight for to their own people
u got to love it
now notice how they tell jw not to read UNAPPROVED MATERIAL
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*** km 5/92 p. 2 Service Meetings for May ***
15 min: Protect Yourself From Apostasy. Discussion between an elder and a publisher seated at a table. Publisher explains that he met someone in service who has been reading apostate literature.
Publisher tells elder he feels householder was sincere in questions he raised. Publisher refused householder?s offer of apostate publication but would like to try to answer householder?s questions. Elder commends publisher for his good attitude and actions.
Rather than discuss what apostates have written or said, it is wise to concentrate on Scriptural viewpoint of matters as set forth in Reasoning book.
Elder invites publisher to open his Reasoning book, and together they review pages 34-7. Discussion should be warm and encouraging as they consider definition of apostasy, each bold subhead, and selected key texts as time permits.
Conclude discussion with positive comments on all the upbuilding and encouraging material we have available for study. Share upbuilding message with householder.
If he is sincere, he will see difference between the positive approach of truth and the negative, critical approach of apostates. By our rejecting apostate thinking and material, we display our loyalty to Jehovah and to his visible organization.
Posts by JT
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20MY COUSIN RETURNS Franz' book TO ME - THANKS BUT NO THANKS
by JT inwe invited them into the family room , their eyes just popped for they recall when lady ?c?
and i got married and was living in the basement of an older couples home so that after leaving bethel-------- i could stay in the full time work, we were shooting for the traveling work.
as he put it, you all done went materialistic on us.
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JT
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20
MY COUSIN RETURNS Franz' book TO ME - THANKS BUT NO THANKS
by JT inwe invited them into the family room , their eyes just popped for they recall when lady ?c?
and i got married and was living in the basement of an older couples home so that after leaving bethel-------- i could stay in the full time work, we were shooting for the traveling work.
as he put it, you all done went materialistic on us.
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JT
SORRY ABOUT THAT- CORRECTION COMPLETE THREAD
#########################
on thursday i went to the mailbox and there was a package that contained Ray Franz Book. what is interesting about this is that it was ?Returned? from my cousin, he refused to read it.
it said THANKS BUT NO THANKS- now what makes this interesting is the following
3 weeks ago I sent out 2 copies ? ONE to my cousin and the other to an elder who went over the questions for baptism with my mom, MY MOM WAS BAPTIZE in the late 60?s or early 70?s ? we were part of the 75 crowd growing up as kids- smile
The elder who has served in every single possible position has drafted a letter to DA himself, we spoke on Tuesday and I suggested that he hold up on that until he has better positioned himself before he makes his move and he agreed for his was making his decision entirely ON EMOTIONS-
My cousin on the other hand has been DFed 2 times , and put on public reproof once, 3 months after I was at bethel, I went out to
he is meeting with the elders- we did and he got into the car and told us that they had decided to df him, this was back in 1982, I was a young fresh bethelite, we sat in the car and it was quiet all the way home for in 7 days he would be read off,
so asked him, Dennis do you still believe this is the truth and he said
O yea of course I just got caught?
You see dennis used to run women, smoke reefer, hang out in clubs in NYC, he was just wild dude
as a result it prevented his dad from being appointed for years - BAD KIDS ?
SO OVER THE years we just lost touch I moved on with my wt career and he continued his wild ways.
Well about 2 months ago he went down south to visit our grandma and my folks, well while down there my grandma who is as dyed in the wool Baptist,
my mom or uncle could never get her out of the church event hoough she studied with everyone,
Told dennis and his wife,------ ?James left the KH?
so he went over to see my mom and my mom told him --yes james has left, so he asked her could he call me
That Sunday night I get a call about 10pm, I have not talked to dennis since I got married which was over 16yrs ago
He told me --------james you were always the serious one, the straight one in the family when it came to the truth--- pioneer , bethelite, elder--- always heard you were on the conventions programs, etc, and your moms says you left
?I have got to hear it from the horses mouth WHAT IS GOING ON?
SO I told him dennis we need to talk then, SO the next weekend him and Dawn drove down from other side of , to .
First they were shocked at the home we had built ? when he walked into our 23 foot Foyer he said, THIS LOOKS LIKE MORE THAN SUSTANCE AND COVERING TO ME
We invited them into the family room , their eyes just popped for they recall when Lady ?C? and I got married and was living in the basement of an older couples home so that after leaving bethel-------- I could stay in the full time work, we were shoot for the traveling work
as he put it, YOU ALL DONE WENT MATERIALISTIC ON US
I JUST smile and said no, just something to call home at the end of the day-
We talked till 2:30AM-
They listened with disbelief as I went over many of the inner workings of the org- they continued to say
You know what I always wondered about that-
We took a brief look at wt paper trail and they could not believe how many of the articles they had read BUT IT NEVER CONNECTED
So I told him you need to read rays book for he gives you a look inside the org in a manner that no jw has ever seen.
So I told him I don?t have any copies of rays book we try to keep extras, on hand- so I ordered a bunch of them and sent him a copy along with this note:
Dennis
All of our lives we have been told what we can and can?t read well as you read this book you will see why. As Chris Rock put it, IF YOU WANT TO KEEP SOMETHING AWAY FROM A BALCK MAN PUT IT INTO A BOOK- SMILE
YOUR CUZ
JAMES
((((((
HE returned the book along with the note -- OUTSIDE on the box it says THANKS BUT NO THANKS-
I could only feel pity for him for here he was so close to freedom that he thru it away, it reminded me of myself,
I got a letter from a former bethel buddy over 13yrs ago, I sent it back- to think I could have gotten out of wt a decade earlier is sad-
What makes dennis story so sad is he is not a major player on the scene in wt, a power broker as it were, insteand he and he wife are looked down upon and spat upon by all the congo they have been in, since his letter of introduction travels wherever he goes, the elder and friends start to treat them like dirt once they relize he has a bad history,
Your deeds are rarely forgiven in wt they will bring up your past as long as you live, NO FRESH START STUFF IN WT-
So here is a man and woman who are being dogged up the ying yang, and they just missed the opportunity to get freedom, unlike the elder I sent the book to he is now on the road to freedom, as he stated I would not let my kids go to college,, I gave up a career all for the Society and they have been misleading us for all these years
It only shows that when folks are presented with FACTS, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION on the org, it all depends upon what level of willingness to examine the org they are on
The elder due to his position quickly recognized many of the things ray speaks of in his book due to all the BOE letters
But for the avg jw like my cousin who has never seen what goes on behind the curtain, it is often time harder for them to accept that the org actually operates this way behind the curtain
So what is did is took the note I sent him sealed it in an envelope like I always do when folks respond this way, date it and seal it and in 10-15-20 yrs from today I will remind him of that night we sat up to 230am discussing why we need to take a serious look at the org and he didn?t
While it hurts each time I see someone get so close, it is amazing that in the years that we have hosted so many gathering here at our home for DF DA and just plain tired ole jw, my relatives have been the last to respond- how sad-
As I told one of my relatives, here you have someone who has been deeply involved in the inner workings of the org and can tell you not second hand but first hand how things are done behind the curtain and still after telling you, you walk away saying
I rather be wrong with the Society than right with you-
Which is such an oxymoron for jw have always prided themselves in wanting to know the TRUTH ABOUT A MATTer BUT the fact is only if it is the truth according to the Boys in Writing-
smile
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20
MY COUSIN RETURNS Franz' book TO ME - THANKS BUT NO THANKS
by JT inwe invited them into the family room , their eyes just popped for they recall when lady ?c?
and i got married and was living in the basement of an older couples home so that after leaving bethel-------- i could stay in the full time work, we were shooting for the traveling work.
as he put it, you all done went materialistic on us.
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JT
We invited them into the family room , their eyes just popped for they recall when Lady ?C? and I got married and was living in the basement of an older couples home so that after leaving bethel-------- I could stay in the full time work, we were shooting for the traveling work
as he put it, YOU ALL DONE WENT MATERIALISTIC ON US
I JUST smile and said no, just something to call home at the end of the day-
We talked till 2:30AM-
They listened with disbelief as I went over many of the inner workings of the org- they continued to say
You know what I always wondered about that-We took a brief look at wt paper trail and they could not believe how many of the articles they had read BUT IT NEVER CONNECTED
So I told him you need to read rays book for he gives you a look inside the org in a manner that no jw has ever seen.
So I told him I don?t have any copies of rays book we try to keep extras, on hand- so I ordered a bunch of them and sent him a copy along with this note:
Dennis
All of our lives we have been told what we can and can?t read well as you read this book you will see why. As Chris Rock put it, IF YOU WANT TO KEEP SOMETHING AWAY FROM A BALCK MAN PUT IT INTO A BOOK- SMILE
YOUR CUZ
JAMES
((((((
HE returned the book along with the note -- OUTSIDE on the box it says THANKS BUT NO THANKS-
I could only feel pity for him for here he was so close to freedom that he thru it away, it reminded me of myself,
I got a letter from a former bethel buddy over 13yrs ago, I sent it back- to think I could have gotten out of wt a decade earlier is sad-
What makes dennis story so sad is he is not a major player on the scene in wt, a power broker as it were, insteand he and he wife are looked down upon and spat upon by all the congo they have been in, since his letter of introduction travels wherever he goes, the elder and friends start to treat them like dirt once they relize he has a bad history,
Your deeds are rarely forgiven in wt they will bring up your past as long as you live, NO FRESH START STUFF IN WT-
So here is a man and woman who are being dogged up the ying yang, and they just missed the opportunity to get freedom, unlike the elder I sent the book to he is now on the road to freedom, as he stated I would not let my kids go to college,, I gave up a career all for the Society and they have been misleading us for all these years
It only shows that when folks are presented with FACTS, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION on the org, it all depends upon what level of willingness to examine the org they are on
The elder due to his position quickly recognized many of the things ray speaks of in his book due to all the BOE letters
But for the avg jw like my cousin who has never seen what goes on behind the curtain, it is often time harder for them to accept that the org actually operates this way behind the curtain
So what is did is took the note I sent him sealed it in an envelope like I always do when folks respond this way, date it and seal it and in 10-15-20 yrs from today I will remind him of that night we sat up to 230am discussing why we need to take a serious look at the org and he didn?t
While it hurts each time I see someone get so close, it is amazing that in the years that we have hosted so many gathering here at our home for DF DA and just plain tired ole jw, my relatives have been the last to respond- how sad-
As I told one of my relatives, here you have someone who has been deeply involved in the inner workings of the org and can tell you not second hand but first hand how things are done behind the curtain and still after telling you, you walk away saying
I rather be wrong with the Society than right with you-
Which is such an oxymoron for jw have always prided themselves in wanting to know the TRUTH ABOUT A MATTer BUT the fact is only if it is the truth according to the Boys in Writing-
smile
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79
Do You Actually Believe In The "Power of Prayer"???
by minimus in...or that unified meditation can change the course of things??
?
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JT
3 y 7 m 24 d
Since 02-Jan-01 15:33 Jan 2, 2001Posts 4096 As they say each day we learn something new, After 4000 post debating religous dogmas that are suppose to be built around the bible/christian faith i have just found out that this site is not a Christian Belief system focused site
thanks for letting me know
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12
Awake Sept 8th on Prejudice
by scotsman ini'm just having a look through this magazine with the usual question will prejudice ever end?
and it has a box identifying the following traits of prejudice: .
in his book the nature of prejudice, gordon w. allport outlines five types of behaviour spawned by prejudice.
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JT
I have to give jw credit in this area, in fact this is one of the reason my mom became a jw- the jw had the best handle on religion and race that we ever saw- being from the sticks of NC that was what impressed alot of black folks, not too many white were impressed with going to church with black folks on sunday
it has often been said that 11 on sunday is the most racially segregated time in the USA-
we had a2 baptist churches in my little town, a white and black one, THEY WOULD NEVER SET foot in each others church-
we we started to attend the hall it was all black and 6months later the congo in NC were told to intergrete
it was great for the black jw, since we were meeting in a little rundown store front, while the white bro had a nice parking lot, beautiful building with flowers and shade trees and most importantly Air Conditioning, so we were happy a mug- but for the white bro it was like pulling teeth
in fact 2 elders resigned, one was reported to have said, no little black boy is going to be sitting by my daughter next thing they will want to be marrying interacially
point is- wt does have a better grip on racial issues than many large groups with millions of members
just my two, but then again the Salvation Army has a better grip on charity than many groups-
give credit where deserved and hold thier feet to the fire where deserved
smile
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15
US Service Report - June 2004 - not a good month for the dubs
by truthseeker inthe stats below are taken from the september 2004 kingdom ministry.... sp'l pioneers: 206. pios: 88, 419. aux.
pios: 26, 024. pubs: 856, 461. total: 971, 110 baptized: 3, 253. .
consider april's report.... sp'l pioneers: 199. pios: 91, 839. aux.
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JT
these numbers are largely bogus anyway
SO TRUE as sec in my hall and like most i knew we would "GUESSAMATE"
if it was late and you didn[t want to call and wake up folks to ask for time you woold just look at what their avg was for the last few month and figure, If she avg 6 hours , i'm sure you got at least 4 or 5 this month and mark it down
then think of all the Dougnut and 7-11 hours riding from one end of the county to the other for the HOT RV- SMLE
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13
Legal Reason Why Elders Are So Corrupt
by metatron inmany of you are aware of the society's oral instructions regarding the mailed forms for disfellowshipping.. in elder's school, these instructions are given orally while the audience is told to write them in their "pay attention".
books ( elder handbook).
basically, don't say anything that links them to df'ing someone.. it may be that the society is seeking to distance themselves from the actions of local elders - or simply using that as.
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JT
JT, you really grab the essence of elder's meetings and the manipulation that goes on therein!
## you know --looking back i can hardly beleive i was knee deep up in such inner workings of the org-
we had a very unusual congo, in that we had 5 former bethelites, one was the city overseer, he was a former missionary,former branch committe member and is STILL A VOTING MEMBER-
we tried to delete this guy along with the CO and DO signing off on his deletion letter, he flew to NY meet with the boys in service and in 2 weeks we got a rejection letter
i recall getting on a 3 way with the CO DO over at the PO house and the DO told us that Service has never refused a recoommendation for deltion in the 33yrs he has been on the road-
so it was a POWER PLAY OF POLITICS AT ITS BEST
I think the only standard that C.O.'s use is "whatever I can get away with, that no one will call the Society about".
####
excellent point, this is one reason why i have always had high respect for white bro, for they would challenge the CO when he made off the wall comments and tried to sell it as THE SOCIETY POSTIONS
in my exp so many black bro were like DON'T QUESTION MASSER- but we had some white guys who would like
"Could you share the Ref on that point in case the bro ask for a ref"
- and the co would him and hog around and finaly admit it was his personal opinion and it was like MUD ON THE FACE
The only other limiting factor is the three year visit policy - and , yes, some elders DO count visits - as in, "two more visits
and we get rid of this jerk
## YES and for that reason many elders would allow co to get away with murder by saying Look Jace he will be gone in 3 yrs, if you rock the boat he will take your name off the speakign list-
but in many cases, if you pulled thier chain the RIGHT WAY, humble and with ashes and sack cloth, i found that many would acknowledge they went alittle over board.
this is such a postion driven org that many good men get swallowed up in the glory and praise, yet i know many men who have left- thrown away all what little honor and titles wt as bestowed upon them due to taking a postion on what right-
it is so sad that the org takes bascially good folks , honest bible loving folks and then takes over thier lives
my mom became a jw due to
1. wanting to learn how to look up the books of the bible
2. living down south, seeing how jw dealt with the racial issues of worship
and for almost the next 40yrs wt used my mom to peddle and sell thier wares- today glad to say my mom is out, back in college at 62 and working in her flower garden on tuesday and thrusday evening- NO MORE MEETINGS
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US Service Report - June 2004 - not a good month for the dubs
by truthseeker inthe stats below are taken from the september 2004 kingdom ministry.... sp'l pioneers: 206. pios: 88, 419. aux.
pios: 26, 024. pubs: 856, 461. total: 971, 110 baptized: 3, 253. .
consider april's report.... sp'l pioneers: 199. pios: 91, 839. aux.
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JT
I could never understand how upwards of 4,000 could get baptized each month, yet they struggle to get anything above the million mark
@@@@@@@@@@@
that is because you are failing to keep in mine the creative accounting system the wt uses-
there is a tremdous difference between Dedicated Baptized members and "Publishers"
they are not the same
many churches count anyone who is signed up on the church rolls regardless of baptism or not
let me illustrate how it works
congo has 100 Publishers
75 baptized = 75 pub
25 unbaptize= 25 pub
100 pub total
4 baptize or NOT go irregular for this month
5 baptized or NOT go inactive for the month
3 unbaptized get baptize
you now have 91 Publishers for the month
it is this goofy accounting system that hurts wt
case in point, i had an annointed lady who due to health missed 6 months, she called me up crying telling me she would not be COUNTED IN THE YEARBOOK and she felt so sorry for messing up the yearly report-
this is the warped mindset that wt creates in its folks
i told her but sister you have been active for 65yrs jah will understand, so here we have an annointed being counted as an INACITVE JW-
you got to love it
nactive, tired of selling books for
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79
Do You Actually Believe In The "Power of Prayer"???
by minimus in...or that unified meditation can change the course of things??
?
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JT
"but since this site is mainly directed toward the belief system of Christians"
my point was and i will let it be-- is this site is mainly a "Christian" / Bible focused site
correct me if i am wrong, but is this site one whose main focus is on the muslium , hindu for buddist faith???
if i am incorrect please let me know-
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13
Legal Reason Why Elders Are So Corrupt
by metatron inmany of you are aware of the society's oral instructions regarding the mailed forms for disfellowshipping.. in elder's school, these instructions are given orally while the audience is told to write them in their "pay attention".
books ( elder handbook).
basically, don't say anything that links them to df'ing someone.. it may be that the society is seeking to distance themselves from the actions of local elders - or simply using that as.
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JT
"In addition, elders can commit fraud, theft, adultery and lie their a$$es off and suffer no consequences as long as the other 'good old boys' agree"
this is a loaded statement for the good ole boy network can hide alot of things, but that would be the Key the "good old boy network"-
in some congo the network is tight and in others the elders only tolerate each other and if one falls short others are more than glad to turn them in,
i know years ago the elders were truly unified, even if it was something wrong, one of the major issues that the Service dept is dealing with is elder bodies that fight and bicker, so it all depends, for some congo the elder can work nights and still hold on to his title
yet in other areas a PO will be turned in by a fellow elder who wants his job, and it is cool how they do it- for example:
Brother "Want2b PO" says:
bro co, i wanted to speak to you about bro po , he is missing lots of meentings and unfortunate, the friends are starting to talk ( of course no one is talking, but it sounds good) you see i am "Concerned" that it may impact the congo view of the body, in that if one of us miss meeting its ok but not for the friends
CO: yes i see your concern bro- well this is something i will bring up at the elders meetings
elder meeting- on the agenda,
Point #1. meeting attendance
co says , bro it has come to my attention that "Many" of the friends are expressing concerned about atten, of the elders and how it looks and impacts OUR FREEDOM of speech on the platform-
so bro i think it may be neccesary to consider setting a fine example-
bro po - raises his hands, well i guess it must be me, i just took this new "Mangament" postion at work and it has required a "Little" over time
CO says: well bro that is a personal choice-- but the body of elders must consider the congo and i think all agree including you that the congo should come first, DO YOU NOT-
po __ YES BRO CO I DO
CO: SO who do you think should serve as PO then? I think Bro Want2b is setting a fine example , out in service, regu at meetings and well respected, HOW DO YOU BRO FEEL _( NOW they all know they will not get anymore assembly parts if they select another_ smile)
the other elders all chide in "YES BRO want2be PO is a good man- and they vote him in
so that good old boy network can cut both ways esp if you have a split on the body and that is a big problem where elders VOTE IN BLOCKS
7 ELDERS voting 3 to 4 on all issues, is what the society is facing now
just my 2