I am sure God wanted to teach Adam and Eve the difference between good and evil in his own time. Satan pushed the time forward.
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could the poster please provide the scriptual ref to this teaching that satan altered the time table of God
thanks
Posts by JT
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162If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....
by Elsewhere in.
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i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.
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Who wrote the Appendix to Chapter 14 in "Let Your Kingdom Come"?
by VM44 indoes anyone know who did the research and wrote the "appendix to chapter 14" in the book, let your kingdom come?.
this is the only place where the wts tried to refute the research coj published in his book, the gentile times reconsidered.. coj's book is not mentioned directly in the appendix!
obvioiusly, as the wt would prefer that people not even know coj's book exists!.
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JT
The JW organization, for example, lost ground with many in the medical profession a few years ago when several articles critical of the JW blood policy appeared in professional journals. Much private discussion ensued and one of the things pointed out was that JW literature in the past has portrayed medical professionals who attempt to administer blood products as "Agents of Satan."
The JW organization in short order, began to publish articles praising medical professionals. One article in particular extolled the virtues of the nursing profession.
The average JW had and still has no idea why those articles were suddenly published#######
i recall talking to a CO who has a bro in the Writing dept and he had mentioned that to us in a elders meeting that the wt realizes that it has to be more diplomatic today unlike in the old days when they dogged everyone and everything
one of the best examples of this that we all can relate to is the 10years of WONDERFUL PRAISE ARTICLES TO THE UN we had no idea that in order to maintain thier status they had to allow the BEAST TO APPROVE OF THIER ARTICLES
this is why the net is so important to folks for it truly allows the avg jw who due to no fault of his or her own simply don't have access to this type of inside information-
Leon Weaver has a phrase he always used in the service dept, "ON A NEED TO KNOW BASIS"
and that statement pretty much sums up the mindset that the players at bethel have toward the rank and file
child molestation is another example OF NEED TO KNOW BASIS even though this guy is playing with your kids after school the elders can;t tell you that since it is in his letter of introduction from his last hall
you got to love it
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15
Who wrote the Appendix to Chapter 14 in "Let Your Kingdom Come"?
by VM44 indoes anyone know who did the research and wrote the "appendix to chapter 14" in the book, let your kingdom come?.
this is the only place where the wts tried to refute the research coj published in his book, the gentile times reconsidered.. coj's book is not mentioned directly in the appendix!
obvioiusly, as the wt would prefer that people not even know coj's book exists!.
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JT
I also do not believe that Jonsson's treatise was significant and that its impact upon the brothers is somewhat exaggerated
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the man was dfed- i guess it was not so signficant- just think if this poster were to be found out by his CO merely having a copy of this published work he too would risk being DFed so much for not being significant i guess
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Who wrote the Appendix to Chapter 14 in "Let Your Kingdom Come"?
by VM44 indoes anyone know who did the research and wrote the "appendix to chapter 14" in the book, let your kingdom come?.
this is the only place where the wts tried to refute the research coj published in his book, the gentile times reconsidered.. coj's book is not mentioned directly in the appendix!
obvioiusly, as the wt would prefer that people not even know coj's book exists!.
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JT
Like I said, if the book hadn't been published (key word published) why mention it to the general public in an appendix?
RR
THE POSTER RASIES an excellent question, but there is something you need to understand about the wt writers, they firmly believe in cutting it off at the pass as it were
When they are concerned about something getting out INTO THE PUBLIC they will address it early and NOT MENTION WHY
CASE IN POINT
When 99% of the 6 mill jw saw this QFR at the bottom of this thread in the wt
they had no Idea of why it was there-
BUT FOR those who were at bethel about a month before we do
Fred fraz made the comment at breakfast that the snake DID NOT TALK but used body language
After breakfast everyone ran to the pay phones to call home and say WE GOT NEW LIGHT, it was the buzz around the job all morning
Then at lunch he came back and said ? I know I must have exasperated some of you this morning and then he corrected himself- but by then it was out-
So the next month the wt thru in a question from readers as if someone had wrote in, they addressed it
I understand when freddy got to work Scherdorer and Jaraz were in his office most of the morning
So unless you understand how the wt writers operate , you will see stuff and have no idea there is as Paul Havey says ----THE REST OF THE STORY
*** w84 9/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Questions From Readers
ยท How did the serpent in the garden of Eden communicate the temptation to Eve?
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1
The Society SAYS???ALTERNATIVE SERVICE
by JT inthis is perhaps the most feared catch phrase that a jw can hear for it means that god?s mouth pc has spoken in his behalf, much like when moses came down off the mountain.. .
i have often stated the following, in the mind of a jw to hear the following all means the same.
why, then, is accepting of such civil service still so objectionable??
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JT
This is perhaps the most feared catch phrase that a jw can hear for it means that GOD?S MOUTH PC has spoken in his behalf, much like when moses came down off the mountain.
I have often stated the following, in the mind of a jw to hear the following all means the same
The Bible says
Jesus Says
The Society Says
Jehovah says
in fact the Society has often been called MommaONE of the biggest complaints that jw make about websites like this is that everything is LIES LIES LIES
well it has become neccessary that only WHAT THE SOCIETY SAYS be used to make the point-
notice all quotes are from the wt - no old dead sea scroll, no hebrew word, no greek word where one has to understand the Past tense of the verb- nope just good old plain wt publications that anyone can look up-
here is the charge against the wt-
the wt has harmed many folks lives with there flip flopping dogma on ALTERNATIVE SERVICE
AS YOU READ THIS NOTICE THE FLIP, THEN THE FLOP, THEN THE FLIP AGAIN
THIS INFO MAY BE SOMETHING YOU WILL WANT TO SAVE AS AN ARCHIVE FOR QUICK FUTURE REF when you are talking to jw who denies they flip,, flop and then flip again
http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/militaryservice.htm
REPOST
The Watchtower Society Receives New Light on
Alternative Military Service(From: Investigator No. 49 1996 July)
B J Kotwall
Alternative service is civil service offered by many governments in place of actual military service to conscientious objectors.
The first president of the Watchtower Society (WTS) did not consider it wrong for Christians to perform military service or alternative service.
The second WTS president forbade both military service and alternative service for Jehovah?s Witnesses (JWs). This rule, enforced for some sixty years, placed thousands of JWs around the world in prisons and some died as a result.
In The Watchtower (WT) of May 1 1996 the WTS?s stance on alternative service was reversed. Alternative service is again permitted!
Raymond Franz, author of Crisis of Conscience (1983), was a member of the JW Governing Body from 1971 to 1980. In this book he says that a proposal for changing the policy on alternative service was dealt with by the Governing Body in 1978. A two-thirds majority vote was not attained and therefore the issue was shelved.
Franz wrote:
The official position of the Watch Tower Society, developed during the Second, World War, is that if one of Jehovah?s Witnesses accepts such alternative service he has ?compromised?, has broken integrity with God. ...Since it [alternative service] is offered in place of military service and since military service involves (potentially at least) the shedding of blood, then anyone accepting the substitute becomes ?bloodguilty?... In obedience to this policy over the years literally thousands of Jehovah?s Witnesses in different countries around the world have gone to prison rather than accept provisions for alternative service. There are Witnesses in prison right now in for this reason. Failure to adhere to the Society?s policy would mean being viewed automatically as ?disassociated? and being treated the same as being disfellowshiped...
From...November 1977 until February 1980 the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses had tried on six separate occasions to resolve the issue without success...the inability of the Governing Body to achieve that indispensable two-thirds majority meant that male Jehovah?s Witnesses in any country who acted according to their conscience and accepted alternate service as a proper government requirement, could still do so only at the cost of being viewed as outside the organization, equivalent to expelled persons.
(pp. 101, 102, 131)The May 1 1996 WT does not mention or admit to any change in policy and makes no reference to the previous stand and its change from the stand previous to that.
It is common practice for the WTS to omit mention of previous doctrine when introducing changes. This hinders newer JWs from knowing what was taught previously and in the present instance means no apology is made to those JWs who went to prison needlessly or to their families.
As shown in my previous articles the WTS has made thousands of changes in doctrines and interpretations in the past 80 years. Yet it also teaches that JWs alone are the ?true religion? and says of true religion: ?its teachings must all be in full harmony with God?s Word.? (The Truth that leads to Eternal Life 1968 p.130)
It follows that both sides of thousands of doctrinal flip-flops are all, ?in full harmony with God?s Word.?
Below is reproduced a set of quotes showing how steadfast and uncompromising the stand on alternative service was.
Alternative Military Service
The Watchtower 1898 July 1 p. 2332
If, therefore we were drafted, and if the government refused to accept our conscientious scruples against warfare ... we should request to be assigned ... to some other non-combatant place of usefulness...The Watchtower 1898 August 1 p. 2345
(There is) no command in the Scriptures against military service.Awake! 1974 December 8 p. 23
On March 26, 1971 three representatives of Jehovah?s Witnesses [in The Netherlands] met with a forum representing the ministries of defence and Justice... One of the points of discussion presented by the forum was this: ?That you wish no part in performing military service is clear and needs no further explanation. But what really is your objection to civil, alternative service??The Witnesses explained that it is not that they are opposed to civil service as such, but rather, it is a matter of strict neutrality. Therefore any work that is merely a substitute for military service would be unacceptable to Jehovah?s Witnesses. Other questions narrowed the issue down still further. ?When a person objects to military service,? the government?s servants declared, ?he passes from military jurisdiction on to civilian jurisdiction and from that moment has nothing at all to do with the military. Why, then, is accepting of such civil service still so objectionable??
Willingly accepting such work is objectionable to the Christian because of what God?s law says about the matter: ?you were bought with a price: stop becoming slaves of men.? 1 Cor. 7:23 Civilian servitude as a substitute for military service would be objectionable to the Christian. In effect he would thereby become a part of the world instead of keeping separate as Jesus commanded.
Yearbook 1982 p. 226-7
As the number of Witnesses increased, the issue was continually brought to the attention of he public and the authorities alike. Finally, a law was approved decreeing that those who do not agree to do alternative service shall be sentenced to one single prison term, so that our young brothers are now given from 12 to 15 months? imprisonment...From 1978 to 1980 there have been, on an average, 500 young brother?s a year in prison on account of the neutrality issue. It is calculated that up to the present, several thousand Witnesses have kept a clear conscience before Jehovah God in this respect.
United in Worship of the Only True God 1983 p. 167
An examination of the historical facts shows that not only have Jehovah?s Witnesses refused to put on military uniforms and take up arms but, during the past half century and more, they have also declined to do non-combatant service or to accept other work assignments as a substitute for military service.The Watchtower 1986 September 1 p. 20
...when Caesar demanded to have God?s things, they acted in harmony with the principles stated at Acts 4:19 and Acts 5:29. Whether the issue was shedding blood, non-combatant military work, alternative service, or saluting an image such as a national flag, faithful Christians took the position that there was no middle ground. In some cases they were executed because of this stand, Matthew 24:9; Revelation 2:10Yearbook 1991 p. 166
?attempts have been made (in Sweden) to have us substitute compulsory work for military service. In the early 1970's, a governmental committee was appointed to review the handling of conscientious objectors. For the sake of uniformity, the authorities wanted Jehovah?s Witnesses to serve on terms similar to those for other religious groups and do compulsory work as a substitute.Representatives of the branch office appeared before the committee, explaining that the Witnesses could not accept any substitute for military service whatsoever, no matter how praiseworthy the task.
The Watchtower 1996 May 1 p. 20.
What, though, if the State requires a Christian for a period of time to perform civilian service that is a part of national service under a civilian administration? Here again, Christians must make their own decisions based on an informed conscience? What if the Christian?s honest answers to such questions leads him to conclude that the national civilian service is a ?good work? that he can perform in obedience to the authorities? This is his decision before Jehovah. Appointed elders and others should fully respect the conscience of the brother and continue to regard him as a Christian in good standing.Watchtower Society and Alternative Service Part II
(From: Investigator No. 70 2000 January)
B. J. Kotwall
Investigator No. 49 reported the change in the Watchtower Society?s (WTS) stance on alternative service. This service is offered by some governments as a substitute for military service to conscientious objectors. [See Investigator No. 49 for WTS quotations forbidding alternative service.]
The change of allowing JWs to opt for alternative service was published in The Watchtower (WT) of May 1, 1996. The WTS ban on alternative service had been enforced for about 60 years by threat of disfellowshipping [excommunicating] the JWs who disobeyed. The ban caused thousands of JWs to go to prisons and caused the death of some of them. As is the usual practice of the WTS when revising its doctrines and policies, it did not refer to its previous stance or admit to enforcing it.
The WTS has now added insult to injury by placing the blame, of abstaining from alternative service, onto the shoulders of the hapless JWs who had meekly followed the WTS dictate:
Feeling of Having Suffered Needlessly
In the past, some Witnesses have suffered for refusing to share in an activity that their conscience now might permit. For example, this might have been their choice years ago as to certain types of civilian service. A brother might now feel that he could conscientiously perform such without overstepping his Christian neutrality regarding the present system of things.
Was it unrighteous on Jehovah?s part to allow him to suffer for rejecting what he might do without consequences... What reason could anyone have to regret having followed his conscience in taking a firm stand for Jehovah? By loyally upholding Christian principles as they understood them or by responding to prodding of conscience they proved worthy of Jehovah?s friendship. Certainly, it is wise to avoid a course that would disturb one?s conscience...
In modern times, there have been some Witnesses who were very strict in their view of what they would or would not do. For that reason they suffered more than others. Later, increased knowledge helped them to expand their view of matters. But they have no reason to regret having earlier acted in harmony with their conscience even when this possibly brought extra suffering. It truly is commendable that they demonstrated their willingness to suffer in faithfulness to Jehovah...
(The Watchtower 1998 August 15 p. 17 Underlining added)The above quotation shows the WTS putting the blame solely onto the JWs and also implicating Jehovah in the process! No blame is acknowledged by the WTS for wrongly imposing the restrictions, or for enforcing them with excommunication, or for forbidding the ?independent thinking? by which the JWs might have made the right decision independently. The WTS has consistently emphasized unity at all costs amongst JWs and ?independent thinking? has always been discouraged. (WT 1983 January 15 pp. 22, 27)
The above quotation repeatedly blames the JWs and their conscience for what happened to them. However, the fact is that the WTS is a totalitarian religious cult where the exercise of conscience is not permitted. Although the WTS often tells JWs that they are ?free moral agents? (WT 1993 August 15, p. 26; 1981 May 15, p. 6) the facts show that this is mere lip service.
WTS says:
?? there cannot even be coexistent tendencies or schools of thought within the Christian organization.? (WT 1983 September 15, p.18)
In short, individualism has no place in the WTS?s theology.
Anyone who becomes a JW is shackled to WTS?s beliefs with no room for any variance in thinking:Approved association with Jehovah?s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah?s Witnesses.
The WTS often plays with the lives of JWs by disregarding the basic morality one expects from Christian religious leaders and then insults the followers by blaming them for harmful consequences.
(WT 1986 April 1, p. 31)
This is what The Society says: -
45
A Very Sad Shell-Shocking Day
by Amazing1914 inwhy is it our lot as former members of the watchtower organization to suffer so much emotional pain?
just when we think we have reached some level of putting it all behind us, something new pops up to bite us hard.
a couple that i have been very close to just sent me a very sad e-mail.
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JT
if you want to beleive that these folks went back to wt due to something you said or us here on the site, that is you choice, but these folks are Hodwinking and bamboozling you -
when i read your post and you indicated that they used the word "ORGANIZATION" at that point i didnt need to know anything else about them
they still beleive in the old jw line "Where will you go, what org will you belong to"
that is a line strainght out of jw101 class-
i just related the exp about my cousin,there is a thread about him and his wife doing much the same thing
while we feel bad for them , we can't get bent out of shape, i think you need to check yourself
you see if you had said that this was your mom, dad bro or sister that is one thing, you all grew up together, peed in the bed as little kids, wore each other hand me down clothes, etc, but you are talking about folks NOT RELATED TO YOU, just some folk you have come to know over the years-
i think you need to really check your own attitude as well- call me cold if you want to, but the fact is to get bent this out of shape as you sound in your post, and i could be reading more into it than is there, then correct me- but you sound like WOE ME WOE ME-
eqch person is at different levels on the rung out of wt some are higher up the ladder to freedom than others, some fall down a few rungs which is what happened here
actually in my mind these folks are the best examples of what it means to be a jw- think about this
we all bitch and moan about IF I HAD KNOWN WHAT I KNOW NOW i would have never become a jw- and while that is true, for i think if most of us had known all the stuff we know now we would have never become one of jw,
If we would have known that sellign books on sat is a waste of our precious time , 5 sales meetings a week is a waste of prescious time
reading books that will be worthless in 6 months is a waste of time, if we had known all of that, then we would not have become a jw
if we knew that -giving up retirement plans, college, developeing hobbies,etc was foolish to do we would not have done it-
so here we all have been privileged to see thru your post a couple who have been given FULL KNOWLEDGE AND INFO ON WT and yet STILL CHOSE TO BECOME ONE/STAY ONE, then that is THEIR CHOICE
the biggest complaint all former jw make is we did NOT HAVE FULL DISCLOSURE on what we were getting into THESE FOLKS DO, THEY NOW KNOW THAT THEY will be riding all over the county couting bogus hours, sittting in boring meetings listening to some dudes claiming to be the mouth pc of god
if THEY ARE WILLLING TO ACCEPT ALL OF THAT THEN LET THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
and if the day comes when they realize - man we got taken in their CASE THEY WILL NOT BE ALBE TO BLAME ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES
o my god i wish i had known this was not the truth i would have been the first black man to be President of the USA- smile
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LAWSUIT AGAINST WTS - WRONGFULL DEATH
by SHUNNED FATHER ini filed a lawsuit today against the wts for wrongfull death of my daughter bethany.
i had a press conference and all the media was present.
i will be interviewed later today on two radio talk shows.
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JT
Joker...
It's "christian love" like you show that shows the WTS and what they teach for the "truth" it is. You are no different than the "wonderful christian" my husband's x-wife became once she joined up with the collective. I hope more people see you and see thru your "christian charity"...
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excellent point , yes we need more folks to see how jw really are and unfortunate it requires that they post comments like tihs poster, while we hate to see someone show little or no feeling it is needed in order to confirm that jw are really no different from those they oftentime condemn, and posters like this provide that confirmation
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Wacky Watchtower quotes for Lurkers
by gumby inso dubbies.......do you really believe your dedication is to jehovah .....or to the society?.
...the witnesses are dedicated to god not to any legal agency.... .
...the legal corporation and "the faithful and discreet slave" are not interchangeable terms.
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JT
see you guys "Ain't" right-smile
I don't git it Gumby ########3 its just a phrase in ref to when someone post wt ref like these that simply can't be denied or explained away as the poster is being so baddd for setting up the poor jw in a catch 22- if i concede that the ref is goofy then i am siding with apostates, if i try to defend this goofy stuff i look foolish- so it just refers to a former jw being badddd for puttng the poor jw in such an awful position where the only way out is to used MENTAL GYMNASITCS-
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Wacky Watchtower quotes for Lurkers
by gumby inso dubbies.......do you really believe your dedication is to jehovah .....or to the society?.
...the witnesses are dedicated to god not to any legal agency.... .
...the legal corporation and "the faithful and discreet slave" are not interchangeable terms.
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JT
see you guys "Ain't" right-smile
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THE WEAKEST LINK---fatal flaws in Watchtower Chronology
by Terry inwatchtower chronology suffers from weak logical links.
after all, they start with an unproven premise and begin linking and linking and linking and suddenly they produce the rabbit out of the hat.
1914 is the rabbit .
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JT
One JW poster signs his threads with:
Scholar
BA MA Studies in Religion
Now I am just a little high school graduate from NC. But when I saw this I just started to laugh, for I could not help but think , when the Translation committte of the NWT is asked to provide their college education, they proclaim it is not important, they are humble men who want no glory, instead to let their written material stand on its own merits
Then we come here and a follower of the same GB fails to show his humilty unlike the bro of Christ do when it comes to bragging about ones educational training
You got to love jw
? Why does the New World Translation not show, in its preface, the names and scholastic standing of its translators?
: ?The one request of the translation committee was that its members remain anonymous even after their death.? We have kept our agreement and respected their wishes.
But why was this stipulation made? These translators were not seeking prominence; they did not desire to draw attention to themselves.
In the spirit of ?doing all things for God?s glory,? they wanted the reader to base his faith on God?s Word, not on their worldly ?qualifications.? (1 Cor. 10:31)Similarly, we note that they say little about their personal qualifications or educational background.
In translating God?s Word, the New World Bible Translation Committee has felt that the particulars of their university or other educational training are not the important thing, though the translation itself testifies to their qualifications.So we see the wt says the GB are humble and don?t want to blow their horn, so we have to conclude that this poster is the opposite then-
You got to love it