Posts by respectful

20

12-year-old thread: JWS/WTS REACHES CRITICAL MASS - A NON-EVENT!

by steve2 in

jw
friends

a few days ago, there was renewed interest in a 12-year-old thread which, among other points, argued the watchtower's days were numbered.

several current posters expressed the view that the wts has not been impacted by any "critical mass" and that it speaks to the immunity of the watchtower to any such "critical mass" event.

i thought the topic warranted a renewal for wider consideration - with the "benefit" of "12-years" hindsight - so have duplicated one of my responses: .

respectful_observer

Breathless sensationalizing comes and goes on this forum almost as reliably as it does at Watchtower conventions.

I would definitely agree with that observation. Although it's not a barometer for the global organization, I seem to be encountering more and more situations where active JWs make statements and disclosures that make my jaw drop.

A few recent samples:

Long-time pioneer (in repsonse to a discussion of the GB/FDS change): "Well it's not like I believe everything I read in the Watchtower anyway. Does anyone?"

Long-time elder (in response to the recent CA that picked on people saving in a 401K): "Why does the Society want every Witness to be stupid and poor?"

Not a quote, but a CoBE I know well "partook" this year for the first time, as did a young MS in the same hall. It turns out they both participate in a weekly Skype "family" study with brothers from around the world. All three people in that hall (barely 70 pubs) who participate in that weekly call/study partook this year. The CoBE also disclosed that he'd been partaking privately at home for years.

A LONG-TIME elder who has been moved by the WTS many times over many decades in several countries and continents: "Well let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if the current 'understanding' of 1914 changed. Sr. LONG-TIME elder and I have felt that other explanantions make a lot more sense."

I've spoken to quite a few active JWs and many of them feel that "something" has felt very different in the last few years and that all these changes are just tremors to something that will negatively affect the organization in a broader long-term way.

20

local memorial attendance

by outsmartthesystem in

jw
friends

so i have a friend that is still "in" because of his elderly parents.

he attended the memorial and reported back to me what i thought was encouraging.

we have two congregations in the city i live in.

respectful_observer

Holy crap. I had no idea that both worldwide and U.S. Memorial attendance had actually decreased from 2011 to 2012.

Does anyone know if either/both the world/U.S. figure has ever declined before this?

Glad to see the printing of all those invites is money well spent.

20

local memorial attendance

by outsmartthesystem in

jw
friends

so i have a friend that is still "in" because of his elderly parents.

he attended the memorial and reported back to me what i thought was encouraging.

we have two congregations in the city i live in.

respectful_observer

interesting,,for 'U.S.' last year (2012) there was 2.4% less than the previous year (2011). If there is that decrease again for this year, there would have to be aprx. 4 or 5 less per avg. congregation attending. Could happen again at that rate shown by your friend's cong.

Sorry, does this mean that the global memorial attendance had a net decrease of 2.4% from 2011 to 2012, or the rate of increase from 2011 to 2012 was 2.4% lower than it was from 2010 to 2011?

Can someone post the actual figures from 2010, 2011, and 2012?

21

Anyone taking bets on the number of partakers this year?

by wha happened? in

even with the change to "just domestics", i can't see the number going down.

respectful_observer

I'm aware of at least one new partaker this year. They are under 30 y.o., with "privileges" (and have a recent graduate degree, no less).

I predict it will go up about the same % that it did between 2011 and 2012.

30

Crazy stories of JW's sacrifices

by IronGland in

jw
friends

i remember hearing of a failthful older brother who was attacked by vicious dogs while in service.

even though his clothes were shredded and he was bleeding he continued walking door to door to finish his assigned territory for that day.

respectful_observer

When I was young, the talk during the CO's visit that focused on the "weak spots" in the congregation the CO brought up how important it was to show up for our TMS talks, even if we're tired and not feeling well. He then went on to cite the example of an elder who came down with the stomach bug, but because it was so important for him to deliver his assigned talk, he came to the meeting anyway and had his wife sit next to him on the stage with a bucket so he had a place to vomit.

The CO went on to say, "Now I'm not saying you should take it to THAT extreme, but you get the point."

14

New Light(TM) is it to keep the JWs interested?

by punkofnice in

jw
friends

there always seems to be some new light(tm) trotted out at the long snorefest a$$embies.. do they do it to keep the r&f interested?.

feel a smug arrogance of being not only in a ''progressive organization(tm)'' but knowing something the ''world(tm)'' doesn't?.

do it for legal reasons to protect the 8 paedophile loving men in brooklyn?.

respectful_observer

I think they see as a good way to drum up enthusiasm amongst the rank and file. With increased enthusiasm comes better meeting attendance, more hours in the ministry, etc. NuLite TM also helps J-dubs feel like the fulfillment of prophecy is that much closer. Whenever there's been NuLite TM recently, many of the Jdubs I know view it as a sign that "the end must be SOOO CLOSE!"

It's not like world events have been very coopertive lately that the goverments will turn on religion, or that "Peace and Security!" is about to be declared, so instead of sitting on their hands waiting for nothing to happen, NuLite TM helps keep everyone thinking the Great Trib is going to start any day now.

18

What if you were DF'd for apostacy, but instead of the expected...

by respectful_observer in

this is a hypothethical, so i'm not looking for whether you would ever do this, or "why would you want to subject yourself to this...", but rather, what would happen if some did do this..... .................... you're half of a married jw couple, and you admit to doubts about certain wts teachings and it leads to an eventual disfellowshipping.

but instead of walking away from the kingdom hall forever, you stay put.

you faithfully go to every meeting with your spouse.

respectful_observer

Your being there tells everyone: "I didn't disassociate myself. I didn't WANT to leave. I have no problems with you, or the meetings, and I see value in being here and listening to your expressions. It's the WTS that stripped you of the ability to talk to me."

Again, I realize that many of you would see ZERO value in this for yourself. I'm not saying you might not want to leave and never come back.

I'm just trying to measure whether you think someone doing this would cause others in the congregation to THINK everytime they see you, and there's nothing the elders could do about it week after week.

18

What if you were DF'd for apostacy, but instead of the expected...

by respectful_observer in

this is a hypothethical, so i'm not looking for whether you would ever do this, or "why would you want to subject yourself to this...", but rather, what would happen if some did do this..... .................... you're half of a married jw couple, and you admit to doubts about certain wts teachings and it leads to an eventual disfellowshipping.

but instead of walking away from the kingdom hall forever, you stay put.

you faithfully go to every meeting with your spouse.

respectful_observer

For this hypothetical situation you would have to inform all your friends and family why you were being DF'd, because they won't say why from the stage. No one would know. If you never came back they would probably assume that it was for apostasy. Plus, we all know the Elders do not keep anything confidential. You would have to let all your friends know that the charges were false, and then endure years of humiliating treatment.

I don't think it would take very long for everyone to know why you were disfellowshipped, either through the loose lips of elders or through your spouse who was still "in"...it's not like your spouse (or any children) are subject to a gag order. Once it became common knowledge that it was for apostacy, I imagine speculation would begin swirling around what you believe, why you're still there, and why horns haven't started growing out of your head and you haven't sprouted a tail and begun carrying a pitchfork.

Some might think you're crazy. But others-- especially after months-- might realize that you're a level-headed reasonable person who is being punished for a "thought crime" and the only thing you've really done is been 100% honest about what you believe in your heart...and you're being punished severly for it.

My thought is that it's easy for JWs to assign attributes, attitudes and stereotypes to apostates because they're never around the prove the stereotype wrong. What if, instead, they're faced with the facts every single time they walk into the Kingdom Hall? (e.g., "I know s/he's technically an apostate, but it seems strange that the only reason we can't talk to him anymore is because s/he thinks the WTS is wrong about 607 BCE. Other than that, it's the same old Sally/Jim week after week."

At the end of the day what you really accomplish? You could get your spouse out, maybe..

I think that's the likeliest outcome. Your spouse is the one person who sees you really haven't changed into some monster. All they see is the way you're being treated because you refuse to lie about what you believe. Long term, I think it's likely it'd affect his/her opinion of the Org instead of you.

18

What if you were DF'd for apostacy, but instead of the expected...

by respectful_observer in

this is a hypothethical, so i'm not looking for whether you would ever do this, or "why would you want to subject yourself to this...", but rather, what would happen if some did do this..... .................... you're half of a married jw couple, and you admit to doubts about certain wts teachings and it leads to an eventual disfellowshipping.

but instead of walking away from the kingdom hall forever, you stay put.

you faithfully go to every meeting with your spouse.

respectful_observer

This is a hypothethical, so I'm not looking for whether you would ever do this, or "why would you want to subject yourself to this...", but rather, what would happen if some DID do this....

...................

You're half of a married JW couple, and you admit to doubts about certain WTS teachings and it leads to an eventual disfellowshipping. But instead of walking away from the Kingdom Hall forever, you stay put. You faithfully go to every meeting with your spouse. You attend every CAD, SAD and DC. You underline your WT, you sing the songs. You don't roll your eyes, or huff and puff at crazy stuff said from the platform or read from the publications. You act like nothing's changed accept that no one is able to talk to you. When the meeting ends, you don't skulk off into the parking lot to wait in the car-- instead you sit quietly in your chair and read your Bible until your spouse is done associating. You make no efforts at reinstatement because your beliefs haven't changed.

You would be a living, breathing example of everything the WTS says apostates aren't. You don't act angry or bitter, you don't picket outside, you don't try to convince others of your beliefs. At every single meeting you sit there as a reminder to your spouse, the elders and every single person in the Kingdom Hall that the only reason you are being treated this way is because there was a certain doctrine you did not believe in your heart.

Your spouse would see that you haven't changed or become some evil "mentally diseased" person. Those who are shunning you will see (and hear from your spouse) that you haven't turned into some venom spewing apostate demon. Call it civil disobediance, J-dub style...

What would the long-term effect be on your spouse, on the elders, on every single person in the congregation?

I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts...

50

New magazine cover from the religion that calls former believers "mentally diseased"....

by cedars in

apparently "prejudice" applies only to racial equality and has nothing to do with diverse sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

it's news to me, but that's the only way i can explain this latest cover from the society.. http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/86/wp_e_20130601.pdf.

cedars.

respectful_observer

What does the WTS have against Indian mechanics?

respectful_observer

Posts by respectful_observer