@garbonzo:
Does the WTS now teach that the people of Noah's day and the people of Sodom will be resurrected?
That would be a "No" to both parts of your question. Why do you ask?
@djeggnog
djeggnog
JoinedPosts by djeggnog
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Does the WTS now teach that the people of Noah's day and the people of Sodom will be resurrected?
by garbonzo indoes the wts now teach that the people of noah's day and the people of sodom will be resurrected?.
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Emblem stupidity, and the bizarre dance of the confused memorial-taker
by cedars inwell, i went along to the memorial with mrs cedars.
it was my first since my "awakening" just less than a year ago.
apparently i made a lot of people happy by being there (even if it was only building up false hopes), the most important of which were my family.
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djeggnog
@cedars:
At one point I nearly embarrassed my wife and burst into unbridled laughter. This moment came during the ceremony when I first noticed the memorial taker's complete ineptitude and absent-mindedness when it came to passing the emblems. I was wondering if anyone experienced anything similar?
Well, nothing out-of-the-way happened where many people filled the ballroom where the Memorial of Christ's Death was hosted last night where I attended.
Apparently, even though he had given the emblem (either the bread or the wine) to the memorial attendants, and received the same to put back on the table at the front, he evidently felt that this did not sufficiently constitute "passing" the emblems, and therefore needed to give the emblem back again before receiving it a final time and placing it back down on the table.
The attendants are cognizant of the fact that all eyes are on them in their role as servers in discharging their duties, and in addition being concerned about their own comportment on such a solemn occasion, there are variables for which there are contingencies in place (such as when a spill occurs and the wine splashes upon themselves or other attendees, which can cause foreseeable and unforeseeable consequences for which the attendants are not always prepared to handle), and sometimes babies cry causing a mother or a father to suddenly want to move from their seats at the very moment when one of the emblems is being passed to them.
Really, how many observers in this circumstance will have the presence of mind to realize that this is a symbolic ritual that doesn't require them to touch the glass or the plate, and how many observers will suspend leaving their seat in order to at least pass the particular emblem that is heading their way while the baby continues to cry?
No invitee to a special gathering wants to do anything to be the cause of disturbing or ruining it, so attendant-servers have to remember that they are attendant-servers and that there are other attendants that will handle anything auxiliary to making sure that all in attendance are served, so that the attendant-servers do not allow themselves to become distracted and attendees -- partakers and observers alike -- have to remember that as distressing as it might be to him or her that their child is crying, they have to hope the other attendees realize that babies cry, and that when they cry, they will do so without any advance warning. As a result, it is only the partaker that will have to make himself or herself more conspicuous than is usually the case by his or her having to leave their crying child in the care of someone else while they take that very necessary, but conspicuous walk up to the table to partake, knowing that all eyes will be on what they are doing.
I nearly laughed out loud when I saw it, but managed to contain my decorum. The whole thing evoked memories of memorials of years gone by where the talk-giver actually seats himself on the front row to receive each of the emblems before getting back up on his feet to continue with his talk. Absolute certifiable madness.
If I had seen what you saw last night, I'm not sure that I would have been able to stifle a chuckle and maintain a poker face, but it's not like these attendants are professional attendant-servers either, so knowing as they do that much is expected of them, sensing in themselves that they may be doing something wrong, there's always the possibility that there may be a flub and that flub may cause some that should see it smile or laugh as they begin to reflect on how wonderful it is that sisters are typically not chosen to be attendants, let alone attendant-servers, and that they aren't this attendant-server. Even though the Society does provide instructions on the manner in which the emblems ought to be served, they may be interpreted differently by some congregations so that execution of the ritual itself may differ from one Memorial to another Memorial. Humans are imperfect and at times many of them have done some very funny things after which laughter, or, at minimum, a smile, follows.
Is it me, or does this betray a complete lack of common sense and sound judgment on the part of these guys? They are obviously so overcome by paranoia and the importance of their "privilege" that they believe Jehovah is there watching their every move and putting a big black cross next to their names if they don't handle the emblems in a certain way.
Some of the mistakes that these attendant-servers might betray a lack of common sense, not necessarily a "complete" lack, but I would say when finding themselves in the limelight, as they are, it may not so much be sound judgment as it is inexperience that grips them, especially if this should be the very first that they have assumed the role of being attendant-servers at the Memorial of Christ's Death. I have no way of really knowing, but I feel reasonably certain that none of them are thinking Jehovah is watching their every move. Remember that they are at the Memorial first and foremost out of respect for the Lord Jesus Christ, because Jesus did command his followers 'do this in remembrance of him,' and if they are not partakers, but observers only, they could have skipped the Memorial since only partakers are commanded to "do this" every year until Jesus comes. You attended the Memorial, doing so in response to a request from @MRScedars, rather than being motivated to do so in response to Jesus' command, and I believe Jesus would be appreciative of this as I would be were I to pass away and receive a heavenly resurrection and see you in attendance at my funeral. Sometimes people bring others with them to observe the funeral of someone that these people had never met and didn't know, but the living that observes these persons at the funeral, especially members of the deceased family, are often grateful that these observers attended the funeral.
It doesn't take a genius to realise that they have "passed" the emblems simply by touching them, or by being a link in the chain that passes them along to others. The over-the-top idiotic approach only makes them look like nut-jobs to any interested ones, who must think the whole celebration centres around some kind of masonic ritual. At best, it's eccentric behavior - at worst, it's a tragic (and very public) dance of the confused and bewildered.
Well, the Memorial of Christ's Death does involve a ritual, for sure, and it may resemble a Masonic ritual, but to Jehovah's Witnesses, the Memorial is a spiritual event that originates with the Bible as interpreted by Jehovah's Witnesses, and even if it should resemble 'a very public dance of the confused and bewildered,' to us it is a very important ritual that we feel we must observe every year.
Anyway, I would be curious to know whether any others out there witnessed such bizarre and frankly ludicrous behavior? One also wonders why the Society doesn't state more clearly in its directions to elders that simply handling the emblems at all is sufficient?
But simply handling the emblems would not be sufficient, @cedars. In Las Vegas, it might be said that there are couples that go there to be ritualistically married, because they definitely cannot afford a wedding planner, but the expense associated with a wedding (the wedding dress, the bridesmaid dresses, the tuxedo, the cake, limousine, floral arrangements, photographer, cobbling together the guest list, hotel reservations for out-of-town guests, invitations, hair and makeup, the reception, the dj or the band, security) must be considered, things that cannot be simply handled, even if you think the ritual associate with getting married is more understandable than the ritual associated with the presentation of the emblem at the Memorial of Christ's Death. I don't really want to get into the weeds of all of this, but here's another example:
The ritual of a funeral service handled by an elder for one of Jehovah's Witnesses is quite different than the memorial for the deceased that follows, for grief-stricken family members, especially those that are not Jehovah's Witnesses, may want to be able to express their grief in ways not permitted at the Kingdom Hall, and it's also quite possible that the bereaved relatives, who may be accustomed to the way such rituals are handled in Christendom, may want a very different atmosphere than the reverential one found at the Kingdom Hall.
You may want a horse and carriage at your son's wedding or at your favorite uncle's funeral, so you may pay for the inclusion of such things in the ritual, but you don't have to approve the ritual we call the "Memorial of Christ's Death" so whatever you might think of our ritual, @cedars, would just be hubris on your part: You don't pay any of the costs associated with any of what takes place on this evening, for you are merely an invitee, ok?
@NVR2L8:
I remember that those who passed the emblems had to arrive earlier so they could rehearse the process passing the wine and the bread to each other....so after having passed the emblems to the audience, the wine glasses and dishes were placed back on the table set on the platform, then the speaker would pick up the emblem and hand it off to the first server sitting in the front row, then he would rush to the end of the row and sit waiting to receive the emblem...
This sounds about right. The attendant-servers could also return each of the emblems to the table, so that the last attendant-server to do so would instead hand-off the bread and the wine, in turn, to the speaker -- note this is a hand-off, not a passing of it to the speaker -- and then take his seat in the first vacant seat to the left of the seated attendant-servers as the speaker comes down from the podium to serve the last-seated attendant server while the speaker purposefully takes his seat in the first vacant seat to the right of the seat attendant-servers as he waits to be passed, in turn, each of the emblems. Now that the speaker has been served, he may return each of the emblems to the table and continue the program.
Like in NFL football, a poor hand-off resulted in confusion and a failed play to the amusement of some of us...
Mistakes can and do happen, but the hope is that all goes well without incident.
@00DAD:
Yeah, it's become an empty ritual.
The Memorial of Christ's Death may be an empty ritual to you, but it isn't so empty to millions of the people that attend each year. The Memorial is a solemn occasion, and a sacred affair to Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide. However, by our observance of this ritual each year, Jehovah's Witnesses not only give honor to the one through whom our salvation comes, but we also demonstrate our gratitude to the one that provided a ransom for forgiveness of our sins and acknowledge that the righteousness imputed to us is because God loved us first and sent his son that we might put our faith in his name. Let me rephrase:
Every year that Jehovah's Witnesses observe this ritual, we honor the one through whom our salvation comes, we demonstrate our gratitude to Jesus, who provided a ransom for the forgiveness of our sins, and we acknowledge that our imputed righteousness is due to God having sent Jesus to give his soul as a ransom for our sake that we might exercise faith in his name.
@LostGeneration:
Yeah its a pretty funny scene. Most of the time I remember them handing it to the speaker after everyone else was done, so the audience has nothing else to do but stare at what is going on up on stage. In theory, it would make sense for the partakers to have their own row up front and just pass it through them. Of course there would be quite a [murmur] from the audience [every time] someone new sat down front in the "partaker" row.
What "theory" is this that involves gawking or do you tend to think of the Memorial of Christ's Death as you would any spectator sport, like boxing or tennis or golf? If the artist, Prince Nelson, that is now known again as "Prince," should be among the attendees at a Kingdom Hall where the Memorial is being hosted, how many gawkers would you imagine there to be by people hoping to get a glimpse of Prince passing the emblems on to the person seated next to him?
Maybe a special chair behind a partition of some sort should be designated away from the other attendees where the gawkers could be avoided altogether with one attendant-server designated to pass each of the emblems, in turn, to him. Of course, the eyes of the gawkers would then be on the attendant-server's walking over to and returning from that partitioned-off area of the room, which would be a variation of your, er, theory.
I couldn't for the life of me though figure out, @LostGeneration, why it was you thought giving the partakers "their own row up front" would make sense. Wouldn't give some of the observers their own row make sense, too?
@NVR2L8:
My wife mentioned the Memorial for the first time today...but she did not dare to ask if I was going....I acted surprised and told her that the Jewish passover was tomorrow...so my son said "well the days started after sundown...", so I replied that I meant Friday after sundown...I should know since I there is a Jewish girl at work who [strictly] observes jewish celebrations...So I told my wife that Jesus would have ate passover tomorrow night and not tonight...Her reply was "well Memorial is tonight!"
Have you ever celebrated your birthday on a different day other than the actual anniversary date of your birth? Those born on February 29 do this kind of thing a lot. Even if this "Jewish girl at work" told you that she observes the Passover on a day different than when Jehovah's Witnesses observe the Memorial of Christ's Death, the point you might be missing is that Jehovah's Witnesses do not observe the Passover; we never have. We recognize the Passover as being the day on which the first full moon after the spring equinox becomes visible in Jerusalem.
No matter when this "Jewish girl at work" observes the Passover, we observe the Memorial of Christ's Death on the same day that corresponds to "the fourteenth day" of Nisan in 2248 AM on the Hebrew calendar, and "between the two evenings" that the sons of Israel slaughtered and ate the flesh of the passover lamb "on this night ... with unfermented cakes along with bitter greens," when "at midnight" the destroyer struck down every firstborn of man and beast in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 12:6-8, 29; Leviticus 23:5)
The passover reminded the sons of Israel of the release they obtained from the Egyptian bondage in which they had been held fast, but the Memorial of Christ's Death reminds Jehovah's Witnesses of the deliverance they obtained from enslavement to sin and death through the sin-atoning power of Christ's ransom and of the benefits that flow to those of the "other sheep" from the New Covenant instituted by Jesus between the "little flock" and God.
This "Jewish girl at work" observes the Passover on the day that she and those in her religion do so according to Jewish tradition, Nisan 15; Jehovah's Witnesses observe the Memorial of Christ's Death on the day indicated in the Bible, Nisan 14.
@jambon1:
[In] our old hall they would keep 4 seats at the front clear for the memorial-takers and after the rest of the hall had observed, they would sit there and the brother giving the talk would hand them the plate/wine for it to move along the four of them. [¶] Very silly.
Why do you think having four known partakers sit together on the front row to have been silly? What if you were to realize since the last time you observed the Memorial of Christ's Death that God's spirit had borne witness with your spirit that you have been foreordained to the adoption as a son of God, but you wanted to sit with other family members and with those with whom you study the Bible? Why would it be necessary for you to sit with the other partakers in the front row when the emblems are going to be passed to everyone in the hall, whether they be partakers or observers?
There are no rules for where a partake can sit; he or she may sit where he or she chooses to sit, even if you think their sitting together on the front row to be silly.
@james_woods:
Yet another stupidity - pass it to everyone, yes EVERYONE, so that NOBODY will take them and thus they can prove there are no true christians in the kingdom hall.
So you think a willingness on the part of some to participate in a ritual to be proof that someone is a true Christian? If this be so, then an atheist that is willing to eat the bread and drink the wine at the Memorial of Christ's Death is really a Christian?
A truly weird custom built without the slightest hint of such a thing from the new testament.
Right. The Memorial of Christ's Death is based on the passover that occurred back on Nisan 14, 2248 AM, and on what Jesus did after the seder on Nisan 14, 3793 AM. I suspect that you are like many of Jehovah's Witnesses today that are tied to the Bible study aids published by the Society and do not know the scriptures on which the things we teach originate. Other than for congregational study and preparation for Bible studies, I have no need for the Society's publications, for the literature we use are crutches for many that do you really wish to turn to any page in the Bible to know for themselves or be reminded what a particular scripture says, but are just willing to take our word for what we claim the Bible says.
It is my opinion that anyone that has been one of Jehovah's Witnesses for three years or longer that is still tied to using the Reasoning book, for example, they are merely going through the motions and are probably not really a Christian. None of the early Christians had Reasoning books. If you cannot explain what things you teach scripturally -- like why we believe the earth will be transformed into a paradise, or why God has permitted wickedness, or when it doesn't constitute adultery if a woman should remarry while her former spouse is still living, or what the kingdom of God is, or why we observe the Memorial of Christ's Death etc. -- it's likely that you are probably not a Christian and probably were never a Christian.
@tornapart:
But the bread was already broken and the wine had a hair in it...
Really? Have you ever seen a fly (or some other critter!) floating in your soup, whether you were at home or at a restaurant? Flies are a fact of life and so is hair. If the bread was already broken, then someone broke it. What's the big deal?
@poppers:
In the Catholic Church we called the emblems communion hosts. Catholics are offered "holy communion" at every mass throughout the year (and mass is said every day of the year). I understand why JWs wouldn't refer to it the same way; [after all], how can you be in communion with God if you don't partake of the host?
@james_woods:
Thank you, Poppers - I was hoping somebody with Catholic knowledge would answer this.
Now - does anybody else know of ANY christian religion that uses the word "emblems"?
As far as I know - it is not even in the JW bible...
The words, "smoking," "oranges," "homosexuality" and "grandfather," as well as the phrase "holy communion," aren't found in the Bible either, so what difference does it make that Jehovah's Witnesses use the word "emblems" in connection with the Memorial of Christ's Death today?
@breakfast of champions:
Yeah, that moment of emblem-passing stupidity is something I never got. My wife has even commented about how ritualistic it looks. . . Well. . . That's because its a ritual!
That is is ("a ritual")!
@Amelia Ashton:
I had always attended the memorial where there were partakers. The first time I went where there was no-one who partook for me to observe was weird and felt silly and wrong.
Why would that be? If you wanted to gawk, you could have visited another congregation where there known to be partakers. There is no requirement that you attend the Memorial of Christ's Death with a specific congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. Maybe you knew this, but it was silly for you to have attended a Memorial if your sole reason for attending was so that you might observe partakers partaking, or drummers drumming, or pipers piping if you wanted to attend a Memorial where partakers partook.
@cofty wrote:
I seem to remember there was a letter at some point on how to do the memorial dance.
@dozy wrote:
This is the instruction:
km3/89pp.1-4par.4MemorialCelebrationfor1989
Congregation elders will want to be sure that all arrangements for the Memorial have been carefully made well in advance. Be sure to select well-qualified brothers to pass the emblems. These brothers should be elders or ministerial servants, if available. Have a sufficient number of brothers prepared to do this so that the passing of the emblems will not be prolonged unnecessarily. After the servers have served those in the audience, the servers will sit down in the front row and the speaker will serve them. Finally, one of them will serve the speaker.
@Bobcat wrote:
The procedure described is mandated by the Society. Like you said, it is distressingly ritualistic. To what extent each congregation follows the ritual might depend on the COBOE or brother giving the talk.
Yes, as I stated earlier, it is a ritual.
I used to give the talk every other year and this ritual passing used to bother me very much. It wasn't enough that the speaker gave the emblems to each attendant. He had to sit down afterwards and be handed them by one of the attendants.
Why didn't you just leave and just go home when you saw this ritualistic passing of the emblems taking place? Are you telling me here that you didn't know that this kind of thing would be going on as you were presiding over the Memorial of Christ's Death where you delivered the talk? Someone else with a copy of the outline could have delivered the talk. It didn't have to be you if this bothered you so much.
Rant starts here: Its not enough to just come and "observe" like the Society says. Its as if the Society is adamant that you accept their superiority by your physically refusing the emblems (knowing that they do partake).
But this sounds right tome: Regarding John the Baptist, Jesus stated at Matthew 11:11 that "a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is." In this regard, I would substitute the word "superior" for "greater" or "better," since these firstfruits to God "in the kingdom of the heavens" will be given immortality, which no human being has ever been promised (maybe you knew this already) and are thus superior to the "other sheep," greater and with better promises than that given to the rest of redeemed mankind.
It is also dishonest to the outsiders who accept the invite to attend. They are invited to observe and then find themselves having to make a choice. Imagine going to some other function 'just to see what is going on,' and then finding yourself being somewhat forced to participate.
How is anyone forced to participate? Did you not know that the attendant-servers are there to ensure that the emblems are passed from one person to another, so that if anyone should not wish to participate the emblems can be moved past that person to the next person? You claimed to have presided over a Memorial and yet I'm hearing you say that it is as if those invited to observe and not participate are "somewhat forced to participate." This is just nonsense.
I could see how this might bother someone who thought partaking was the norm and then finding themselves having to decide what to do with everyone else turning down the emblems and the speaker encouraging the same.
Wait a second. Now what you seem to be saying is that the problem with the passing of the Memorial emblems that those invited to observe and not participate are forced not to partake. Wouldn't partaking be participating? And what if someone invited to observe should partake? What wrong with that? This kind of thing happens all of the time and everyone that partakes is counted each year.
If a person invited to observe should have realized from what was said by the speaker that he or she should only partake if God's spirit had borne witness with their spirit that they were adopted as his children, then he or she may choose not to partake, but if he or she does partake, so what?
I figured out a few years ago that all Christians were to partake. I was intending to go to a different congregation but the other elders volunteered me to give the talk. I could 'feel' every eye on me as I was the last to be handed the emblems. I told the brother who was going to hand them to me just before the meeting so he wouldn't have a stroke.
Then if you didn't feel you had eaten or drank unworthily, then no one -- no human -- could judge you for partaking.
The real shame of it all is the Society's 'published' view that many who partake are 'mentally unstable' or 'influenced by past beliefs.' But they won't say the real reason the number is going up. People are figuring out that they are lying about who should partake.
It doesn't matter what the Society may have published with regard to such persons. People do things for many reasons that are unbeknownst to us. No one that happens to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses and understands the significance of the Memorial of Christ's Death would accuse those that taught them what we believe as "lying about who should partake." Jehovah's Witnesses know from our study of the Bible who should and will partake. We wouldn't lie to anyone. If anyone should have 'figured out" anything differently than this, the congregations of God have no other custom.
Here is another way you can see that the WT doesn't see things correctly: In the Bible, the reason for partaking is to 'remember Jesus,' to 'keep proclaiming the death of the Lord.' In the Kingdom Hall if you partake, the immediate and only response is: 'So you think you are going to heaven.'
If this should be your "immediate and only response" to someone that partakes, then you're not a spiritual person, but, rather, a fleshly person, not really comprehending much of anything about the Memorial. As I stated above, by our observance of the Memorial of Christ's Death each year, Jehovah's Witnesses give honor to the one through whom our salvation comes and demonstrate our gratitude to the one that provided a ransom for forgiveness of our sins in whose name we put our faith. Those that partake feel the same as the observers, for they, too, owe their salvation to God and Christ, except they feel a special kinship to God as sons, having been called to be heirs of the kingdom of God with the Lord Jesus Christ.
@wha happened?:
The last memorial I attended was packed. Standing room only. Well for whatever reason, we got passed over, the passing of the emblems. My wife looked lost, but out loud, I said, "it's symbolic. We're here so it's fine, it's not like someone is going to live or die touching the glass as if it's the ark of the covenant. Well one of the elders heard, and he ran over and had us pass them. Even my wife smiled at that one
I would also have smiled (you were right).
@St George of England:
I cannot remember when this stupid emblem ritual began but it has been in for a few years now. At our KH the bro giving the talk didn't sit down to receive the emblems. One of the attendants handed him the bread & wine which he handed straight back to the attendant to return to the table. It didn't seem to occur to them that the speaker had already picked up the emblems at the start of the routine and handed the plates and glasses to each of the attendants to take to the audience.
Meaning what? They the speaker had already been served just because he picked up the emblems at the start of the ritual? Should you ever find yourself handing out cold beverages (i.e, beer, sodas) to others on a hot summer day, even if you felt thirsty, would you feel less parched knowing that you had already been served? Would you feel no need to serve yourself by drinking one of these cold beverages with which you had served others?
@Bobcat:
Even that is a dishonest use of statistics. The 19 million+ is everyone that came. The tiny number of partakers is only the ones they chose to count among those that partook.
We count all partakers, including the ones that maybe should not have partaken.
@Morbidzbaby:
The last Memorial I went to was when I really observed how ridiculous the whole ritual is. "I touched it when I was passing it, but it doesn't count as touching it because an elder or attendant didn't pass it to ME, so I have to sit down with the other attendants and elders and the speaker and we'll pass it between ourselves..."
Then this is the kicker... The speaker went back up to the stage, the attendant who had passed the "emblems" to the other attendants and the speaker brought the wine/bread back up to the stage, put it down, and stood there at the table while the speaker picked it up again, handed it to him, he handed it back, the speaker put it down, and went back to the podium. [¶] Talk about washing up to the elbow...
What is it about this story of yours that strikes you as a "kicker"? The speakers and the attendant-servers are human beings like you, that make mistakes just like you do, but they do the best they can with what have, like (maybe) you do.
@james_woods:
1) do they have a biblical reference that says it should be done only once a year? (no)
(yes) Exodus 12:6 says that on "the fourteenth day of [the first] month [(Nisan)], ... the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter [the passover victim] between the two evenings." At 1 Corinthians 5:7, we note that Jesus is there referred to as "our passover," and 1 Corinthians 11:26 states that Christians should observe this remembrance "for as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup ... until [Jesus] arrives," which means that Christians observe the Memorial of Christ's Death on Nisan 14 once a year since Passover only occurs once a year.
2) do they have a biblical shred of evidence that only some mysterious "upper elite" should partake? (no)
(yes) At Luke 12:32, Jesus tells his apostles that the father had approved of giving this "little flock" the kingdom, and at Luke 22:20, Jesus indicates that the cup symbolizes the new covenant and Luke 22:29 indicates that the new covenant was made with those that are a part of the new covenant with Jesus.
3) do they even practice it on the actual day of the old Jewish passover? (no)
(yes) Leviticus 23:5 indicates that Nisan 14 was the day when the passover was observed.
4) have they called anyone who actually partakes of the "emblems" mentally ill? (yes)
(no) Not specifically, but some that may have partaken of the emblems in the past might have been mentally disturbed when doing so, but this is just an opinion.. So what?
5) does the "Governing Body" still partake anyway? (well, answer this for your own self).
I'll answer it anyway: Yes, they do partake because they are members of the new covenant that have the prospect of heavenly life.
@cedars:
Thanks to everyone who has commented on this. It's good to know that I'm by no means alone in thinking that the way the speaker deals with the emblems is obscenely ritualistic.
How so? Funeral and wedding ceremonies, even commencement exercises (say, at a high school) are ritualistic also, so why make such a big deal about a religious ritual that Jehovah's Witnesses host every year? If you do not wish to participate in it, then you should have told @Mrscedars, "No." I don't see anything obscene about this ritual.
I think we've all pretty much agreed that touching the glass alone would be sufficient if the memorial, as observed by JWs, was a scripturally relevant ceremony - which it clearly isn't.
I don't agree with this conclusion. Touching the glass (containing the wine) doesn't constitute serving it to anyone.
It is also, as some have suggested, a twisted way in which the Governing Body subliminally reminds the rank and file of the reasons why they are superior, and have a privileged relationship with Christ.
Yeah, that must be it.
Did I miss anything? Are there any other reasons for the memorial?
I don't believe you will do so, so, yes, you didn't read the entire reply that I posted here where I provide reasons for our observing the Memorial of Christ's Death.
I hadn't realised that this year's celebration didn't even coincide with the Jewish passover. That is very interesting indeed.
Sure, it does.
@JRK:
One year, I was one of the dorks assigned to pass the emblems. That year some jackass filed the glasses to the rim with wine. That made things interesting and messy.
This was a mistake, but, let's face it: Humans make mistakes.
@OnTheWayOut:
We never made a big deal out of it, but the "servers" quickly decided who would offer the emblems to the speaker and then who would offer them to the "servers." Typically, the speaker would offer the emblems to the servers last after they all sat back down in the front row. So it did look silly and seemed to elevate the importance of being "served" despite the fact you've handled the emblems already.
What would be the "big deal" that you believe could be made out of an agreement that the speaker should serve the emblems to the servers?
I remember one year that we forgot to discuss it and different ones went to "serve" the speaker and nobody at first "served" the "servers" so one of the "servers" returned to the stage and "served" the "servers" and ran to the other end so that he could "pass" the emblem after rejecting it.
People do not always get things correctly.
@Nambo:
I agree with Bobcat and John Chapter 6 that just as all in the wilderness with Moses ate the Manna, (else they died of starvation, Hebrews and Egyptians, not just thePriests), the "bread from Heaven" and his blood, have to be eaten by all Christians.
What's the nexus between what happened in the wilderness when the sons of Israel were eating manna and the bread from heaven and his blood that gives you to understand that the emblems must be partaken by "all Christians"?
Now even if the JWs [were] correct that the emblems are only for a select few, why this ritual of passing it around and the [embarrassment] of an "[anointed]" who then has to partake in front of everybody, " hey everybody, look at me!, [I am almost] a god!"
Because Jesus commanded a "remembrance" of the occasion of his death. If anyone should think as you suggest here, that those that partake are telling others that they are 'almost Gods,' then that person would have another think coming since this is not what they are saying when they partake. They are acknowledging, among other things, that they are members of the new covenant, God's temple class, with the prospect of heavenly life.
Why cannot they have the memorial for those its intended for, to be taken in a [faithful] and discreet way?
For whom exactly is it your belief the Memorial of Christ's Death to be, if not for all Christians?
@djeggnog
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Was Last Supper a Passover meal ?
by Phizzy inaccording to russell in zions watchtower of march 1896 he wanted his little church in allegeheny to celebrate the last supper on nisan14 becuase jesus instituted it then, some time after 6pm, by 3pm the next afternoon, still nisan14 he was dead.. at 6pm three hours later nisan15 began, passover began, and the jews would eat the lamb and bitter herbs, when the sun was down... so russells view was that jesus did not celebrate passover, being dead, on preperation day.. thus jesus died at the time the lambs were being slaughtered in jerusalem.. if i am correct the wt's latest explanation on this is not quite as clear as russells.
they seem to infer the last supper was a seder, a passover celebration, and that the slaughter of the lamb ,eating of the lamb, and jesus death all took place on nisan 14, have i got that right, or as usual is phizzy in a mucking fuddle ?
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djeggnog
@Phizzy:
According to Russell in Zions Watchtower of March 1896 he wanted his little church in [Allegheny] to celebrate the last supper on Nisan14 [because] Jesus instituted it then, some time after 6pm, by 3pm the next afternoon, still Nisan14 he was dead.
At 6pm three hours later Nisan15 began, Passover began, and the Jews would eat the lamb and bitter herbs, when the sun was down..
So Russells view was that Jesus did not celebrate Passover, being dead, on [preparation] day.
Thus Jesus died at the time the lambs were being slaughtered in Jerusalem.
I don't agree with everything you state here as to Russell's view of the celebration of the last supper, since if what you say here is true, then Russell was wrong about Jesus' not having observed the seder as did the rest of the Jews on Nisan 14, the same day on which Jesus died. But I'll maybe come back to this point later.
If I am correct the WT's latest explanation on this is not quite as clear as Russells. They seem to infer the Last Supper was a Seder, a Passover celebration, and that the slaughter of the lamb ,eating of the lamb, and Jesus death all took place on Nisan 14....
I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I can tell that you that we teach the last supper to have been celebrated immediately after the seder; IOW it was an added feature of the passover that the rest of the Jews celebrated that year -- in 33 AD -- but a feature at which only Jesus and 11 of Jesus' apostles observed after the seder.
@cofty:
Its the bible that is in a "mucking fuddle" about this. Compare the synoptics with John and you will see they can't agree on which day Jesus died nor at what time of day.
Perhaps if you would point out the reason you believe the gospels to not be in agreement as to the day on which Jesus died, that would help me to understand why it is you are saying this, because I cannot agree with you. As far as the time of day when Jesus died, I take your point, @cofty, but the fact that the gospels do not all agree on this point is primarily due to the perspective taken by each of the gospel writers.
@Phizzy:
I agree Cofty, they certainly seem at odds, but I have seen a fairly persuasive argument that says Jesus died on Nisan 14, [preparation] day at around 3pm, and that this does not disagree with the Synoptics, if you read what they do not say, i.e no mention of the lamb being eaten etc, which would mean Jesus did not celebrate the Passover on Nisan [15], being dead.
In 33 AD, Preparation fell on the same day as the Passover. Perhaps you have a different view of Preparation or you do not think of it as being the day that immediately precedes the seven-day Festival of Unfermented Cakes, for this festival is a holy day, a Sabbath day that was to be regarded as a "holy convention," for the first of eight consecutive days that the Jews were obliged to eat unfermented cakes began on Preparation, which in 33 AD was also the Passover, and the Passover seder is always eaten on Nisan 14. To put that in another way, in 33 AD, Preparation and the Passover fell on the same day -- Nisan 14 -- in 33 AD.
Now the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes is the day that immediately follows the celebration of the passover, which is Nisan 15 or Day 1 of the seven-day festival. Note that Nisan 15 would also be the second of the eight consecutive days that the Jews were obliged to eat unfermented cakes, but Day 1 of the festival, which means that Nisan 21 would be the eighth day of the eight consecutive days that the Jews were obliged to eat unfermented cakes, or Day 7 of the seven-day festival.
Considering the fact that the Jews were obliged to celebrate the Passover on Nisan 14, this means that they were to slaughter the passover victim -- a lamb -- "between the two evenings," meaning that the passover lamb was to be killed after sundown on the evening when Nisan 13 ended and Nisan 14 began (about 6:00 pm), but before sundown on the following evening when Nisan 14 ended and Nisan 15 began (about 6:00 pm).
This is what the Bible says:
"And it must continue under safeguard by you until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings." (Exodus 12:6)
The "first month" on the Hebrew calendar is Nisan. As for the passover victim, it was to be slaughtered "on the fourteenth day of the [first] month," that is to say, on Nisan 14, "between the two evenings":
"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening." (Exodus 12:18)
Beginning with the Passover, unfermented cakes were to be eaten for eight consecutive days from Nisan 14 to Nisan 21, with the first day being the day when the Passover was celebrated followed by the seven-day-long festival of unfermented cakes, with Day 1 of the festival being the second day and Day 7 of the festival being the eighth day.
"'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the two evenings is the passover to Jehovah. And on the fifteenth day of this month is the festival of unfermented cakes to Jehovah. Seven days you should eat unfermented cakes. On the first day you will have a holy convention occur. No sort of laborious work may you do.'" (Leviticus 23:5-7)
Exodus 12:15, 18, goes on to introduce a Sabbath, the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, to wit: "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening."
Every year, as we did today, April 5, 2012, Jehovah's Witnesses observe the Memorial of Christ's Death on the day that corresponds to Nisan 14 on the Hebrew calendar for that year, the day on which the Bible indicates Moses led the exodus of the Hebrew people out of Egypt back in 1513 BC, who became the nation of Israel.
What I would like to know is do the WT deny this or not ?
Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses would not deny that Jesus did not celebrate the Passover on Nisan 15, because Jesus would have celebrated the Passover with his apostles on Nisan 14 in harmony with the Scriptures, as did the rest of the Jews back in 33 AD.
What I do not wish to do is get in to a discussion with my family or other JW's on this and be wrong about the WT stance, but I have no access to WT lit to check.
Stick to the scriptures I provide above and you will not be wrong about the stance of Jehovah's Witnesses with respect to the Jesus' having celebrated the Passover on Nisan 14 as was required under the Law of Moses.
When it is put to me in the next few days that I should be attending the Memorial, which it will be, I wish to be forearmed, hopefully able to say that it is plain to me all christians should partake, but also, I would love to say that they have their "celebration"on the wrong day, but I am not sure of my ground on the latter.
You may, of course, have your own beliefs as to the rightness of all Christians partaking of the emblems at the Memorial of Christ's Death and your family members would have to understand that your beliefs differ from their's, but you would be mistaken to claim that the celebration of the Memorial of Christ's Death is being observed on the wrong day, since all Jehovah's Witnesses observe the Memorial on the day of Jesus' death, namely, on the day that corresponds to Nisan 14.
@shepherd:
The bible itself does not agree on the day, so you are unlikely to [persuade] a JW. However, it seems likely they are celebrating on the correct day, Nisan 14, the day before the passover, although JW's wrongly think that Jesus also celebrated the Passover first. Even if they have the day right they still ignore his instructions to partake.
I didn't quite get what you were saying here, @shepherd, as to our celebrating the Memorial of Christ's Death "on the correct day, Nisan 14," because in the second part of your statement here you added the words, "the day before the passover," which suggests that you are of the opinion -- or might be of the opinion -- that the day after Nisan 14 -- Nisan 15 -- is when the Passover is to be celebrated, which contradicts the first part of your statement. Nisan 14 is the correct day for the celebration of the Passover. Consequently, Nisan 15 is never the correct day for the celebration of the Passover.
@mP:
the mistake between john and the synoptics is because different traditions celebrated the spring equinox celebration on slightly different days.
Forget about when "different traditions" may have celebrate the Passover. The question the OP asked has to do with when Jesus and his apostles celebrated the Passover, and, according to the Bible, Jesus and his apostles celebrated the Passover on Nisan 14 as was required under the Law of Moses.
lets not forget jesus doesnt actually stay dead for three full days in either. fri night [crucifixion], sat burial, sunday morning [resurrection] is not three days inside the earth.
How is any of this relevant to the question posed by the OP? Although this last point of yours about Jesus not actually being dead "for three full days" isn't relevant to the OP's question, this expression, "three days and three nights," is actually the same as the expression "three days" used by the Jews, which never means "three full days" or 72 hours, but means "on the third day" or "over the course of three days."
For example, at 1 Kings 12:5, King Rehoboam, the king of Israel, tells Jeroboam, who eventually became the king of Judah, to go away and return to him in "three days" as he gave consideration to his request to lighten the burden that the king had been putting on the people, and we note that at 1 Kings 12:12 states that it was "on the third day" that Jeroboam and the people returned to King Rehoboam to learn what he had decided over the course of this three-day period.
@binadub:
THIS IF FOR FOLKS REALLY INTERESTED IN BIBLICAL STUDY: ...
The Essenes followed a solar calendar rather than a lunar calendar of the Jerusalem Temple Jews (Pharisees and Sadducees). Consequently they celebrated the Passover on the 14th day of Nisan (which became the 15th after sundown) a couple of days earlier than the Temple Jews did the year Jesus died, on a Wednesday according to early historical documents.
I would recommend that you find a Hebrew calendar on the 'net for 3973 AM, which corresponds to 33 AD on the Julian and Gregorian calendars, and specifically find the 14th day of the month of Nisan, and you will notice that Nisan 14 did not fall in this year on a Wednesday, but, rather, Nisan 14 fell on a Friday, on the day before the seventh day of the week, which is when the weekly sabbath was observed.
To prove this, just review what the Bible says at John 19:31 as to the reason the Jews had requested Pilate to hasten the deaths of any of the men still alive by breaking their legs so that their dead bodies might be taken away. It says that these bodies were hanging "upon torture stakes" on Preparation, and that the Jews did not wish them to remain there "on the Sabbath," which means that the day after Preparation must have been the seventh day when the weekly Sabbath was observed, but this is not all John 19:31 says. It says also that "that Sabbath was a great one," but why did John describe the weekly Sabbath as "a great one"?
This is because the day after Preparation -- no matter the day on which Preparation falls during the week -- is always Day 1 of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, which is also a Sabbath. Thus, with the day after Preparation being a Sabbath and that day also being the seventh day when the weekly Sabbath was observed, Nisan 15 in 3973 AM would have been a "great" Sabbath, a double Sabbath.
According to the records, Jesus’ arrest, trial and conviction covered parts of 3 days, not one day overnight (which makes a whole lot more sense). Evidently he observed Passover on the date of the Essenes (Wednesday), was arrested and tried on Thursday, and hung on Friday, dying about 3pm when the first lamb was slaughtered in the temple on the 14th, before sundown when the Temple Passover began at Sundown, the beginning of Nisan 15.
According to what records? This chronology from which you're quoting contradicts the Bible. You refer to a "Temple Passover" as if there exists a different Passover at the temple than the Passover celebrate by the rest of the Jews, which I assure you there was only the one Passover, and back in 33 AD, this Passover was observed on Nisan 14, not on Nisan 15. Where I do agree is in what it says about Jesus being "hung on Friday and dying about 3pm."
(JWs celebrate it the 13th day when evening becomes the 14th.)
This isn't true. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate the Passover at all, but on the same day that corresponds to the day on which the Jews celebrated the Passover you will find Jehovah's Witnesses observing the Memorial of Christ's Death, which is never on the 13th day, but on the 14th day of the first month (Nisan) on the evening when Nisan 13 ends and Nisan 14 begins (about 6:00 pm).
The historical documents are: 1) The Syrian doctrinal teachings of the Apostles, Didascalia Apostolorium of the 3rd century; 2) Didache (attributed to the apostles, beginning of the 2nd century); Epiphanium of Salamis (ca. 380 AD); 4) Victorinus of Pettau (died a martyr 304 AD); 5) The Ethiopian book of Adam (Christian [apocryphal] writings).
I don't believe any of these "historical documents" can stand up to the scrutiny of the gospel writers, and your mention of several non-canonical sources, including some apocryphal writings, is, in my opinion, suspect. And studying any one of these documents is not the same as studying the Bible.
Here’s the quote from the Didache):
The obvious reason why the primitive Church in Jerusalem altered the Jewish weekly fast days (Monday and Thursday) to Wednesday and Friday, was because on Wednesday Jesus was taken prisoner (cf. Jesus’ saying: "When the bridegroom will be taken away, they shall fast on that day" (Mk 2:20 and on Friday when he died.
This is an interpretation that is in conflict with the Bible, because for Jesus Nisan 14 was a long, event-filled day: He had celebrated the Passover with his apostles that evening and after having instituted the Lord's Evening Meal with them, they had all gone outside -- Jesus telling them to bring the two swords they had with them so that it could be proved that although his group was armed, Jesus had voluntarily surrendered to those that he knew were coming to arrest him that very evening -- and Jesus was arrested and tried by the Sanhedrin in the evening hours of Nisan 14, by Pilate in the morning hours of Nisan 14, by Herod Antipas, and again by Pilate until he did about 3:00 pm, and all on this on this one Passover day, Nisan 14.
And here is a gem that none of the Gospel writers picked up on (Paul later did):
Regardless which day of the week that Nisan 14/15 fell on, which varied, according to the Law the following Sunday must begin the Festival of First Fruits (Feast of Weeks) which began the counting of 50 days to Pentecost. This particular year, Nisan 14/15 fell on Friday, which made Sunday the third day later. Jesus rose on the [...] third day, which was the first day of the Festival of First Fruits. Fifty days later was Pentecost.
It is not true that no matter the day on which Nisan 14/15 fell that the Law of Moses proscribed the following Sunday as the day when the Feast of Weeks would be celebrated, and it is not true that the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, which you refer to here as "the Festival of First Fruits," is just another name for the Festival of Weeks, which you refer to here as "the Feast of Weeks." I also have no idea what it is that you say Paul "picked up on."
What is true is that the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes always fell on the day after the Passover, which means that Day 1 of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes which the day that always follows the Passover, and since Passover is always celebrated on Nisan 14, then the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes would be Nisan 15.
Furthermore, on Day 2, that is to say, on the second day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, the high priest would be required to wave a sheaf of the barley firstfruits to and fro before Jehovah at the temple. Why is this fact significant? Because Day 2 is always Nisan 16, "the day after the sabbath," referring to the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, and after counting seven weeks, the following day would be the Sivan 6, which is Pentecost, the day on which the Festival of Weeks is celebrated, for Pentecost means "50th day." (Leviticus 23:15, 16; Deuteronomy 16:9, 10)
Tradition held that the first Pentecost was when Moses came down from the mountain and found the Israelites making a golden calf. According to the scripture, he threw down the stone tablets and ordered the Levites to slaughter the idolatrous Jews. It says that 3000 died on that day.
Well, the Bible trumps tradition, at least it does for me. Exodus 19:1-3 indicates that it was "in the third month" after the sons of Israel had come out of Egypt that "they came into the wilderness of Sinai." They left Egypt on Nisan 14 and "in the third month," some 49 days after they had left Egypt, Moses went up into the mountain as the sons of Israel made their encampment in front of the mountain. This 49th day was Sivan 3. The following day, Moses comes back down from the mountain and is given two days to sanctify the people, "today and tomorrow," which would be Sivan 4 and Sivan 5 that they may prove ready "on the third day," or Sivan 6, when that morning all of the "thunders and lightnings" from Jehovah began. (Exodus 19:10, 11, 16)
Exodus 24:18 indicates that it was some 40 days after Moses had gone back up into the mountain to receive the Law that the people became restless and decided to make a golden calf. (Exodus 32:1-4, 7, 8) Thus, "the first Pentecost" could not have been Sivan 6, but would have been some 40 days after Sivan 6, for it was 40 days after Moses had gone up into the mountain to receive the Law that the people had decide to make for themselves a golden calf to worship.
On the last Pentecost, 50 days after Jesus death, when the spirit was poured out, it says 3000 were saved.
The second day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes -- Nisan 16 -- is the day on which Jesus was resurrected, and seven weeks after Nisan 16, would be Sivan 6, or Pentecost.
@Phizzy:
Thanks for your answers, all of yours was new to me Binadub, so thanks. The WT and the JW's seem confused about the only "celebration" they have each year. Muddle-headed lot, aren't they ?
Are Jehovah's Witnesses confused about what things we believe? Perhaps some of us are confused, but not all of us are. For example, I am not confused.
@djeggnog
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Anyone here use a tablet computer
by maksym injust curious here who uses the new tablet computers, whether they be android based or ipad ios from apple.
does anyone here use a phone to post and what is your experience with that?.
i'm curious as to how much more time there will be before these devices are the main computers for people.
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djeggnog
@Lozhasleft:
I've got the Pages app which I find is excellent. I've also got Dropbox and am starting to get the hang of it.
I think you are going to enjoy your new iPad 3 and it could end up replacing your computer for many of the things that you had been using your computer to do.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
But that doesn't mean those two apps are the solution to a much greater issue. Like I said - and I am [completely] sincere about this - if you can suggest a plausible means in which I can resort to an iPad only and still use my trackball for input, dual 24" screens, and the same bandwidth I have when connected to a gigabit ethernet network, and run full versions (not just light apps or viewers) of Autodesk and Adobe Creative Suite software, I'll ditch the desktop and notebook.
@djeggnog wrote:
No one said a thing about using an iPad with Autodesk Inventor or Adobe CS5 or any other software that you might be running on your Windows OS-powered PC.... No one said anything in this thread about trackballs and 24" screens but you.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
But, FWIW, I regularly peg out an i7 processor and utilize all 12GB of RAM on my main editing computer.
@djeggnog wrote:
I don't think what things you have said here are worth anything at all. This is just bloviation on your part and I suspect it was for this reason you joined this thread.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
Geez, it shouldn't be hard for someone so technologically gifted as you to grasp. I'm just an average user and I get it. The iPad processor clocks in around 1GHz and it comes with a whopping 1GB of RAM. For tasks that are as taxing on the processor and RAM as I mention above, the iPad wouldn't cut it.
No one but you has been comparing the speed of the iPad processor or the amount of memory in the iPad with what you would find in Windows or Mac box. You decided that you would become @moshe's translator, but I don't believe he had in mind at all Autodesk Inventor or Adobe CS5 as you claim, nor that he could have had in mind your love of the trackball. No one here even suggested that the iPad would run apps like Autodesk Inventor or Adobe CS5 either, so this was a strawman.
@djeggnog wrote:
If you are trying to make it appear to those reading this thread that you are a smart bloke, your efforts here didn't work on me. You have come off here to me as being rather silly, insecure and immature with a complex that seems to drive you to wanting to prove to others than you're a smart guy or just a guy.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
Egg, I see I've ruffled your feathers. Look, there's nothing wrong with being a male secretary. Just be glad you have a job in this economy.
Now how do you suppose you "ruffled" me? I cannot take any of the things you said here seriously. If you see all male attorneys and male LDAs as being male secretaries, so what? This won't change the fact that after you joined this thread you outted yourself as having a complex about your maleness, an insecurity of some sort about who you are as a person, and that's just too bad. This thread is not about you nor is it about pitting the power of the iPad against the power of a Windows PC or the fact that you cannot use your trackball with an iPad; at least the OP -- @maksyn -- wasn't talking about such things when he started this thread.
The OP made an inquiry about tablets, like the iPad, and he also asked about "cloud" computing in connection with the use of such devices. When you chimed in, you indicated that you use the iPad to read books. An iPad user herself, @mrsjones5 expanded this discussion in pointing out a few of the things she found disconcerting about the iPad, that it didn't support flash and her problem using the iPad to embed links in her posts here on JWN, which was eclipsed by what @moshe ignorantly opined regarding the improbability of anyone using tablets like the iPad to do any "serious work" that, according to @moshe, must be done on "a PC or a laptop."
This is when you chimed back into the thread as a kind of "translator" for @moshe to explain to me how "maybe" by @moshe's use of the phrase, "serious work," you thought he had in mind the "heavy lifting" that desktop PCs, notebook PCs or Macs must do to run "full-featured versions" of Autodesk Inventor and Adobe CS5. Really?!? Did you really expect me to believe this to be the reason @moshe absurdly decried how it wasn't possible to do any "serious work" on tablets, because he knew it wasn't possible to run "full-featured versions" of Autodesk Inventor and Adobe CS5 on a tablet, like the iPad? Yes, you did, because you never really learned how to think; you just bloviate and hope that others here will think what things you say are important or will impress others to think you are important enough. Whatever.
Then you began name-calling, prompting me to ask you to explain to me what it was you meant by "douchebaggery" (which you never answered), after which you then went on to attack me for continuing to believe "crazy JW [doctrines]," when, in this thread, we were discussing the iPad, and not what you thought my religious beliefs to be.
Even though this attack of yours was totally unwarranted, I admit that I reflexively did ask you to provide an example of one such "crazy JW doctrine" that I espouse and you provided two (2) examples: (1) A 2,000-year-old Jew named Jesus that was a miracle worker that had manifested the ability to walk on water, who rose from the dead, and (2) how Jesus directed the Society to redefine the word "generation" to suit their own purposes. Personally, I don't recognize either of these things as doctrines taught by Jehovah's Witnesses, nor do I espouse either of them.
This attack of yours actually derailed this thread because it was off-topic, but I responded to what you characterized as a "crazy JW doctrine" to explain how Jehovah's Witnesses since 2010 would now interpret the word "generation" used at Matthew 24:34.
@djeggnog
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56
Anyone here use a tablet computer
by maksym injust curious here who uses the new tablet computers, whether they be android based or ipad ios from apple.
does anyone here use a phone to post and what is your experience with that?.
i'm curious as to how much more time there will be before these devices are the main computers for people.
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djeggnog
@moshe wrote:
Serious work that you need done in a timely fashion requires a PC or a laptop- tablets are more for "looking" than "doing".
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
Eggnog, I use an iPad ... mostly to handle my own secretarial duties.... [¶] Unfortunately, I can't - and wouldn't care to - use the iPad for my "heavy lifting" at this point, since that requires the use of full-featured versions of Autodesk & Adobe CS5 Master Suite products, which call for a PC or notebook of some sort. So maybe that's what Moshe had in mind instead of secretarial stuff when he said "serious work".
@Goshawk wrote:
I use my iPad to view autoCad files and 3d models while at a install site during construction.
@djeggnog wrote:
I believe@SweetBabyCheezits believes the iPad to be unsuitable for AutoCAD files, but maybe you can help him ease into the use of one for DWGs and DXFs.
@djeggnog wrote:
One other question: If AutoCAD or CS5 were among the apps populating a Citrix farm, would you be unable to use Citrix Receiver, which is a universal app that runs on the iPad, to run either of these [apps]?
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
Possible or not, I really don't know. I know it's possible to hammer a nail with fist-sized rock but I tend walk away bleeding and swearing by the time it's done.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
Goshawk, don't mind Egg, he just likes to misrepresent what other people say to cover over his own stupid remarks. Nowhere did I write or otherwise imply the iPad wouldn't make an excellent viewer. A buddy of mine uses it onsite every week and loves it. It seems like a fantastic application of the iPad in the field.
What are your thoughts on iCAD Professional, the app that runs on the iPad? Helluva viewer, huh? And then there's cadTouch, which is not as expensive as iCAD Professional, but it's some viewer, innit?
Egg, my actual words are indelibly written in this same thread. Go back and re-read it. I said my work"requires full-featured versions of Autodesk & Adobe CS5 Master Suite products", not just a viewer.
Right, and, yes, I did read the "indelibly written" words to which you refer here in this very thread. I note that you again used the word, "viewer," and while the display of a 3Dcreation is admittedly the primary use of iCAD Professional, permitting users to view the measurements within a model and to share 3D models and CAD designs, even sending screen shots of these via email, it also permits scene customizations, light and background adjustments and onscreen markup. iCAD Professional is said to work with all major CAD and 3D animation packages, and allows onscreen drawing to markup models, hide parts and change the center of rotation. It is also said to provide standard orthographic views, scene customization, color editing and textures, and Dropbox integration (for supported files).
You said "my work," as in your work, requires the use of Autodesk Inventor and Adobe CS5, but where did you get the idea that anyone was talking about your work? @moshe didn't use the phrase, "heavy lifting"; you used this phrase, not @moshe. You decided that "maybe" @moshe's use of "full-featured versions" of Autodesk Inventor and Adobe CS5 was what he had in mind when he opined that "[s]erious work that you need done in a timely fashion requires a PC or a laptop." Does @moshe use full-featured versions of Autodesk Inventor and Adobe CS5? Maybe he does, but I wouldn't have had any way to have known this, but assuming that @moshe does use AutoCAD or CS5, I wonder what success he has had using either of these apps with Citrix Receiver, a universal app that runs on the iPad. Do you know?
I recall that when I asked you about using Citrix Receiver on the iPad, but you were clueless. Your response was, "I really don't know" and then went on to wax philosophically about the possibility of using a "fist-sized rock" to "hammer a nail" or some such nonsense. I assume you are also aware, @SBC, that you can use the iPad to remotely access whatever "memory-intensive and processor-demanding apps you may be running on the Windows desktop. Then again, perhaps you are not aware and have difficulty wrapping your mind around what I'm saying to you here.
Now those of us with an education don't typically have any need to pick up a pick or an ax or a shovel, or engage in any real "heavy lifting" unless we happen to be married to a slave-driving wife that forces us to rent a mini-rooter from Home Depot to open up the clean-out and snake it (to dislodge or remove whatever it is that was flushed, causing the sewer line back up) for her sister, whose husband freaks out and shuts down whenever he hears the word "snake" because he was rooked by a plumber that charged him $750 to do what his brother-in-law would have (allegedly!) done for free.
You read in this thread that Goshawk was using his iPad "to view autoCad files and 3d models," but I suppose you don't regard Goshawk's work to be "serious work," believing what he does with his iPad to be "secretarial work" since he's not using a PC or a laptop, correct? And talk about spin, you go on to write:
While it's an awesome piece of hardware in it's own right, for some folks' needs, the iPad can't compete with a desktop or notebook PCs (including Macs) that are designed for memory-intensive and processor-demanding apps like Autodesk Inventor.
Who was it on here -- who was in this thread -- that raised as an issue the incomparability of the iPad when compared to PC desktops or notebook PCs (including Macs), but you? I responded to @moshe's comment to the effect that "[s]erious work ... requires a PC or a laptop" and how "tablets are more for 'looking' than 'doing.,' and I note that he said nothing about any "memory-intensive and processor-demanding apps like Autodesk Inventor." There was no way you could have known that by @moshe's mention of "serious work" that he had in mind using "Autodesk Inventor," "Autodesk Inventor" or "Adobe CS5" on a Mac or on a Windows PC or notebook PC. None of there apps you named in this thread are designed to run on the iPad, so why did not go out of your way to make this strawman argument? Who was in this thread that sought to compare the iPad with apps designed to be run on PC desktops or notebook PCs but you?
If I'm understanding correctly all of this nonsense you've handed me here, @SBC, (1) you were able to read @moshe's mind, and this is how you knew what @moshe had in mind when he indicated that "secretarial stuff" isn't really "serious work" -- no way! -- and (2) you are suggesting to me that what @moshe had in mind you also had in mind when you read what he wrote, because you knew @moshe had in mind his use of "full-featured versions" of Autodesk Inventor and Adobe CS5, is that what you expect me to believe? Do you know how stupid you sound?
Let's say I bill my time out at $50/hour -- actually I'm an LDA and I bill my time out at almost $100/hour, but let's just use $50/hour -- does the work I do not qualify in your opinion as "serious work"? What if you forgot you were supposed to make an appearance in court on a moving violation, and so, after being pulled over by a police officer for making a left turn at an intersection where no left turns are permitted between the hours of 7AM and 9AM (and you made one at 8:45AM that caught the officer's attention!), you are arrested pursuant to a bench warrant issued pursuant to your non-appearance on that previous infraction you had forgotten, taken into custody and are now in lock-up needing a magistrate to set a reasonable bail for the previous moving violation and for this new infraction, since the $2,500 bail now given you by the police that would have effected your release is too high? A typical scenario in my world.
The city attorney won't reduce the bail, so I make two calls using the Ooma app on my iPad: One, to contact my client and partner, who is an attorney, to come to court for your bail hearing (LDAs cannot represent their clients in court) to obtain a reduction in the $2,500 bail and, two, to call your wife on the phone to let her know what's going with you and to give her the address of the police precinct so that she can meet me there and to tell her to bring money. After a quick appearance by the attorney, I'm stuck waiting at the court for your wife to appear with a check for $1,100, from which I have to pay your bail, which has been reduced to$500, and to pay the attorney and me for his work and my "secretarial work."
Before you left the police station with your wife, I prepared a retainer agreement using my iPad that contains a facsimile of the attorney's signature for your signature, and then printed the document on the portable wireless printer I carry in my bag from my iPad before I paid your bail. Now many people have ended up losing their jobs after maybe a week of their not having shown up for work, so what if it's the case that they haven't shown up for a whole month? What would your wife think about you being locked up in a cage for a month?
What is more, what would your own children think upon seeing their father in court after spending roughly a month in the county jail? (No, you don't get to stay at the police department; your temporary home away from home will be county jail and maybe you come out walking a little funny (with a limp) and maybe your kids will be able to recognize their jerk of a father with a completely new attitude!) How rosy do you think the job prospects are for people that get fired from their job for not showing up for work? How is life when you are denied unemployment benefits because you were involuntarily terminated (that is to say, fired) by your employer all because you forget you had a court date?
Please explain to me, @SBC, how all of the secretarial work that was done on an iPad to effect your admission to bail so that you wouldn't have to remain in custody for a month until your trial date is not "serious work" just because I'm not an engineer, nor an architect. When compared to Catia, isn't Autodesk Inventor for newbies anyway? I understand Autodesk Inventor is about as easy to use as Solidworks, but the latter is rather expensive when compared to the former if you're using it commercially.
Personally, I don't use AutoCAD at all; I don't render 3D drawings either. If you are facing foreclosure and do not wish to lose your home, if you want help defending against a speeding ticket, if you don't want to be in jail, if I need to print out a copy of the trial brief that you left behind at the office while we were on our way to court, if I need the print out a Substitution of Attorney or need to create a subpoena so that I might serve it on someone, I can't use Autodesk Inventor or Adobe CS5 Master Suite products. I still use a notebook PC at home and I sometimes use a netbook PC when in court (to communicate across the courtroom with the iPad), but I definitely make use of my iPad almost daily.
A big thanks to Egg for demonstrating that sarcasm is wasted on the stupid.
I am stupid, but I decided that I'm going to hear you out anyway.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
... I think you might become a decent chap, even if you chose to continue believing crazy JW doctrine whilst cavorting with us wretched apostates on JWN.
@djeggnog wrote:
But I am a decent chap. What are you saying? Are you suggesting that I cannot choose my own religion unless you approve of the doctrines it teaches? I don't know what "crazy JW doctrines" even means. If you don't mind, please give me an example of just one such doctrine that you believe I embrace as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
Fair enough. How about the idea that a 2k year old Jew named Jesus - who supposedly healed the blind (by spitting in their eyes), walked on water, turned water to wine - rose from the dead himself and ascended to heaven so that he could direct a publishing company to define, and then REdefine, the term "generation" to suit their own purposes.
I learned by making calculations of some of the things I read in the Bible that when Jesus lived here on earth as a human being, he lived until he was 33 years old, not 2,000 years old, and I believe with God's power he was able to perform many miraculous works that none of us today could do more than scoff and doubt that these things actually occurred since none of us were alive then to dispute whether or not they occurred. The Bible does teach these things.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach Bible doctrines and they do not teach a doctrine that claims Jesus is directing the Society's operations here on earth from heaven, because the Bible nowhere teaches such a doctrine. Jehovah isn't directing the Society's operations here on earth either. Jehovah's Witnesses have not received divine inspiration from God -- none of us have -- but we rely upon the Bible to help us to properly interpret other Bible verses, since it is through the things we read in the Bible that the holy spirit speaks. I know this may be a hard concept for you (and many others like you). Recall that Jesus did say that "the spirit of the truth" would guide us into all the truth and that the spirit would "declare ... the things coming." (John 16:13)
As a result of what the holy spirit says at Exodus 1:6, Jehovah's Witnesses have come to realize that when Jesus used the words "this generation" at Matthew 24:34, he wasn't referring to the people that were living at the time to whom we had before 2010 interpreted the word "generation" to be applicable. There was no "generation of 1914," but there was "the generation of the sign" that was discerned when it began in 66 AD and ended four years later when the great tribulation came against the Jewish nation in 70 AD, from which calamity many Christians during the generation of that sign survived because they heeded the sign that Jesus provided at Luke 21:20 and left Judea and took flight to Perea, to the city of Pella some 954 miles away from Jerusalem. This generation lasted only four years and what occurred back in 70 AD, was but a type however.
The antitypical fulfillment of Jesus' words as to the generation of the composite visible sign that signaled the beginning of Jesus' invisible presence began in 1914 and "this generation" will end in a great tribulation from which calamity many Christians will also survive. Just as some of the anointed members of the temple class -- spiritual Israelites -- lived to see the beginning of the generation of the sign, some of the temple class will be alive to see the great tribulation when the generation of the sign comes to an end.
This generation of the sign has been evident for some 98 years, although Jehovah's Witnesses didn't become aware of that the sign has begun in 1914 until 1925 after we had made an examination of world events that had occurred since 1914. Consequently, we have abandoned our former interpretation of Matthew 24:34 and understand the "generation" at Matthew 24:34 to refer to "the generation of the sign" and have since 2010 abandoned our former interpretation of this verse wherein we understood there to be a "generation of 1914."
We have reinterpreted Matthew 24:34 for the purpose of championing Bible truth and nothing more. There are many things that Jehovah's Witnesses have come to understand after having gotten a lot of things wrong over the years, but it is our endeavor to pay close attention to what things the holy spirit says through God's word as world events unfold so as to be able to more correctly interpret the Bible and to help as many people as possible to come to a knowledge of the truth that they might be saved. BTW, @SBC, you're off-topic.
@djeggnog wrote:
While I believe I know what "douchebag" means, I'm not so sure that it would be proper on my part to guess that you meant by "douchebaggery," so if you don't mind -- I do realize you might mind -- but if you don't mind doing so, please tell me what you meant by this non-word so that in the future I won't have to guess what it was you meant by it. Thanks in advance.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
For a technologically advanced ubermensch, I'd expect you to be a little more familiar with Google. Click the link below and just go with entry #3...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=douchebaggery
Maybe that's a bit harsh, even for you.
@djeggnog wrote:
I don't believe I asked you how online resources like the Urban Dictionary defined "douchebaggery." Don't you have your own mind, your own brain? Are you somehow tied to Google or other online resources so that you refuse to let your own brain think? Didn't you know what it was you meant? I don't need a lesson from you on the essentials you've come to learn about using a browser on the 'net (before the Google we know today existed, I used WebCrawler and Dogpile). I asked you what you meant by "douchebaggery"; I don't believe I stuttered.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
Come on, Egg, for someone who presents himself as the badass intellectual antagonist of JWN, I'd expect you to have better research skills. Wait, do you want me to define "antagonist" for you as well? Or do you just need help when you can't find the definition within the boundaries of the WT Library?
Are you serious? I've been in the truth a whole lot longer than the WT Library has been made available to Jehovah's Witnesses, and, personally, I have electronic copies of all of our publications so that all I need is an index if I should wish to find something in an older article or book. I asked you to define your use of the word "douchebaggery," but you instead you directed me to Google and go on to provide a URL to a website when you could have just answered my question. And yet again you raise a strawman: Did I ask you at any time to define for me the word "antagonist"? If no, then why do you ask me such a question? Why won't you just answer my question and tell me what it was you meant by "douchebaggery"? I derive no joy from sparring with you.
@djeggnog wrote:
If one wishes to generate letters, pleadings, contracts, corporate minutes, medical databases/reports, accounting/billing reports, spreadsheets/charting, memos and faxes, the iPad can handle serious work quite well, but scanning/OCR, audio editing and video production work are "heavy lifting" tasks of a different sort that requires a PC. Someone -- I believe it was @SweetBabyCheezits -- mentioned his need to use AutoCAD on "a PC or laptop," but with the iPad 3's A5X processor and 2048x1536 resolution, I can imagine iPad apps handling 20MB drawings with aplomb. Both cadTouch and iCAD Professional are available for the iPad and iDesign is a universal app.
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
Well, see Egg, you DO know how to use a search engine!
I am familiar with many of the apps in Apple's AppStore, although I will probably never use them. I didn't have to conduct any research to find these apps. I have read many iPad-related articles.
But that doesn't mean those two apps are the solution to a much greater issue. Like I said - and I am [completely] sincere about this - if you can suggest a plausible means in which I can resort to an iPad only and still use my trackball for input, dual 24" screens, and the same bandwidth I have when connected to a gigabit ethernet network, and run full versions (not just light apps or viewers) of Autodesk and Adobe Creative Suite software, I'll ditch the desktop and notebook.
No one said a thing about using an iPad with Autodesk Inventor or Adobe CS5 or any other software that you might be running on your Windows OS-powered PC. What you are saying to me here would only make sense, in part, were you to use a Remote Desktop app on an iPad to use these Windows PC apps. I say "in part" because what doesn't make any sense is that you are now, with this latest message of yours, talking about using a trackball with the iPad, dual 24" screens and have the same bandwidth over a wireless network that you would have "when connected to a gigagbit ethernet network." No one said anything in this thread about trackballs and 24" screens but you.
But, FWIW, I regularly peg out an i7 processor and utilize all 12GB of RAM on my main editing computer.
I don't think what things you have said here are worth anything at all. This is just bloviation on your part and I suspect it was for this reason you joined this thread. If you are trying to make it appear to those reading this thread that you are a smart bloke, your efforts here didn't work on me. You have come off here to me as being rather silly, insecure and immature with a complex that seems to drive you to wanting to prove to others than you're a smart guy or just a guy. Good luck with that! It wouldn't matter to me if you were a woman. I'd still regard you as being a silly, insecure and immature individual until you decided to change your behavior.
@moshe:
Well,like I said, for some reason you are acting pretty chummy with the "enemy"-
I don't regard any of the people on JWN as my enemies. I don't know any of you personally, and I may not ever get to meet any of you. Contrary to what many of you on here thinks, no one can control me or force me to violate my conscience by me kowtowing to do or not do things that someone else's conscience might permit them to do. If any of you should regard me as your enemy just because I may have different religious beliefs than you have, then I am your enemy, but this fact won't make any of you here my enemy.
@djeggnog
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Anyone here use a tablet computer
by maksym injust curious here who uses the new tablet computers, whether they be android based or ipad ios from apple.
does anyone here use a phone to post and what is your experience with that?.
i'm curious as to how much more time there will be before these devices are the main computers for people.
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djeggnog
A few corrections (where indicated in red).
@Lozhasleft:
My new 3rd Gen IPad has arrived. Yes Djeggnogg its my first. It is truly amazing I have to say.
"Amazing" is just one word that you will use to describe the iPad and how much your computing life will change now that you have your first tablet. One thing I would suggest you consider is downloading from Apple's AppStore a copy of Dropbox. It won't set you back too much, but you'll be happy you did so. If you should use Microsoft Word, for example, then you might want to consider downloading a copy of Pages (which is US $9.99); you would then copy the Word documents you wish to be able to access on your iPad to one of the folders you will create in your 2GB of Dropbox "cloud" storage you are allocated, so that you may use Pages to not only create new Word-compatible documents, but open and edit your existing Word documents as well.
@moshe wrote:
Serious work that you need done in a timely fashion requires a PC or a laptop- tablets are more for "looking" than "doing".
@djeggnog wrote:
"Serious work ... requires a PC or a laptop"? Really?!? ...
@SweetBabyCheezits wrote:
Eggnog, I use an iPad ... mostly to handle my own secretarial duties.... [¶] Unfortunately, I can't - and wouldn't care to - use the iPad for my "heavy lifting" at this point, since that requires the use of full-featured versions of Autodesk & Adobe CS5 Master Suite products, which call for a PC or notebook of some sort. So maybe that's what Moshe had in mind instead of secretarial stuff when he said "serious work".
@djeggnog wrote:
If one wishes to generate letters, pleadings, contracts, corporate minutes, medical databases/reports, accounting/billing reports, spreadsheets/charting, memos and faxes, the iPad can handle serious work quite well, but scanning/OCR, audio editing and video production work are "heavy lifting" tasks of a different sort that requires a PC. Someone -- I believe it was @SweetBabyCheezits -- mentioned his need to use AutoCAD on "a PC or laptop," but with the iPad 3's A5X processor and 2048x1536 resolution, I can imagine iPad apps handling 20MB drawings with aplomb. Both cadTouch and iCAD Professional are available for the iPad and iDesign is a universal app.
Maybe I can afford to have a great imagination (since I have no need for AutoCAD apps in my work). I'm actually not sure what to make of @SBC's comment in equating what things attorneys do as "secretarial stuff" or how he knew what @moshe had in mind, when @moshe's only point, or so it seemed to me -- was that tablets were slower than PCs or laptops, and were "more for '"looking' than 'doing,'" than they are for doing any "serious work."
@moshe:
eggnogg is sure acting chummy - next thing you know he will be wanting us commiserate over his troubles in WT land.
Tsk, tsk. Over what, pray tell, might I be "commiserating" in the future, @moshe? Let's say I was a member of the Baptist church. I'm not, but let's imagine that I am. Would you be trying to have this conversation with me over what "troubles" I might have in the future with my church? People choose to worship God or not to worship God. Of those people that choose to worship God, they choose to do so with spirit and truth or not to be concerned about such things. What business is it of yours how I worship and with whom I choose to worship God? Why would you be concerned about my choice? I'm not concerned at all about your choice. I would assume you made the choice you wanted to make and so have I; get over it.
Perhaps were I Southern Baptist and not Northern Baptist, or Northern Liberal Baptist and not Northern Conservative Baptist, or Northern Conservative Reform Baptist and not Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist, or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region and not Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 and not Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912, I would be a bit troubled. But, as it happens, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and not a Baptist.
@djeggnog
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56
Anyone here use a tablet computer
by maksym injust curious here who uses the new tablet computers, whether they be android based or ipad ios from apple.
does anyone here use a phone to post and what is your experience with that?.
i'm curious as to how much more time there will be before these devices are the main computers for people.
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djeggnog
@Lozhasleft:
My new 3rd Gen IPad has arrived. Yes Djeggnogg its my first. It is truly amazing I have to say.
"Amazing" is just one word that you will use to describe the iPad and how much your computing life will change not that you have your first tablet. One thing I would suggest you consider is downloading from Apple's AppStore a copy of Dropbox. It won't set you back too much, but you'll be happy you did so. If you should use Microsoft Word, for example, then you might want to consider downloading a copy of Pages (which is US $9.99); you would then copy the Word documents you wish to be able to access on your iPad to one of the folders you will create in your 2GB of Dropbox "cloud" storage you are allocated, so that you may use Pages to not only create new Word documents, but open and edit existing Word documents as well.
You can copy anything you wish to your Dropbox storage as you would to a hard drive, including text files, music files and photos. If there are files that you have need for others to be able to access (such as photos), then you would copy these to the "\Public" folder or to any subfolder you will have created within this "\Public" folder, and send a link to each file you want others to be able to access.
I'm considering getting a keyboard case for it since I am finding it slows my touch typing speeds somewhat...but thats ok unless I'm typing a big academic document. I've been looking at the Targus...it seems that at present the choices in UK are limited?
Such keyboards will increase the weight of your iPad, so you might want to just get a case that will permit you your iPad to stand upright, at an angle, or both. (My iPad case stands upright.) Whether to get one with a Bluetooth keyboard built into the case, or to buy a separate hardware Bluetooth keyboard is going to be a subjective decision so I don't have a recommendation.
I have the Apple Wireless keyboard (US $69.00), which is a Bluetooth keyboard, but using Dictate on the iPad 3, you may like dictating what things you would otherwise have to type on your iPad, at least until the novelty of it all wears off, but in any event you would still find using the built-in virtual keyboard a necessity. I would prefer dictating to my iPad in lieu of typing just as I do on my PC, but, unlike you, I don't have the wherewithal to be able to buy an iPad 3 (I also run a radio station), and my preference anyway is to keyboard text using the Bluetooth keyboard for lengthy typing projects.
Since you are in Great Britain, however, there will probably be many occasions when you want to be able to write the Euro or the Pound currency symbol, which is done on the Bluetooth keyboard by typing Option + Shift + 2 (euro) and Alt + 3 (pound), but on the virtual keyboard, you may type them by switching to the ".?123" keyboard layout and holding down the "$" key for a couple of seconds; you can then select the symbol you wish from the keyboard overlay. If you use a lot of symbols (e.g., the mathematical symbol for "therefore") when you write, then you might want to download an app called "Character Pad."
That said I have hardly put it down in 3 days. Love it.
It may be six months before you have fully transitioned to using your new iPad for everything that you formerly used a PC or a Mac to do. For many people, the iPad has taken the place of their PC, especially when, starting with the release of iOS 5.0, iPad users were no longer tied to having to use a PC or a Mac because the use of iTunes was required.
@djeggnog
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CRAZINESS!!! I'M BEING 'MARKED' FOR GOING TO COLLEGE!!!
by MsGrowingGirl20 inohmygosh!!!
one of my friends who is a ms told me today that the elders have 'marked' me because i'm a reg.pioneer and i've decided to go to college next semester???!
he said he can't tell me anymore but to be careful---what the hell does 'mark' mean?
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djeggnog
@Black Sheep wrote:
You were the one claiming they were baptised. It's up to you to provide some evidence. Have you got dates? places? witnesses?
@djeggnog wrote:
My understanding is that both of these women are Jehovah's Witnesses.
@Black Sheep wrote:
What is it about the grammar of Serena's statement that gives you the confidence to state that she is a baptised Jehovah's Witness????
I think perhaps you didn't appreciate what I was telling you, that I'm not willing to answer your questions about either of these two woman. Whether you believe me or not won't change what they are, and whatever their standing is before God, this isn't any of your business, is it?
@slimboyfat:
Or they could be unbaptised Witnesses, of course.
They could be unbaptized publishers, but I believe them both to have been baptized Witnesses. There is no such thing as an "unbaptized Witness."
@djeggnog
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Is the Watchtower shy about repeating their new "generation" teaching?
by slimboyfat inas i recall in the 1980s talks and watchtower literature, magazines and books were always talking about the "generation" teaching and how it proved armageddon was going to come any day now.. but am i correct in thinking they have only actually mentioned the new "overlapping generations" teaching once or twice in the literature?
why are they so shy about talking about their great new interpretation?
it's almost enough to make you suspect they are a embarrassed about it.. mention it once or twice, don't dwell on it, hope everyone just accepts it, and don't bring it up again.
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djeggnog
@Black Sheep:
When the study conductor asks you for your comment, what will you say?
Why do you ask? Is there something you want to teach me here? Why would you be quoting anything to me from the Watchtower? I know you cannot still read the Watchtower, do you? You read this "Question 13" and believed what the paragraph said was addressed to me, which explains that you read without discernment.
@Ucantnome:
This is what I meant. It was 1971 the period of time of the book and Watchtower that I quoted from. A time that we were told the generation of 1914 would not pass away.
In the 1966 Watchtower....
Why would you be quoting something you read in an old 1966 Watchtower and in an old 1971 Watchtower article as if what you quoted were current? I suppose you could find in our literature reference to Pluto when we used to consider it to be the ninth planet in our solar system. Do you remember this? If you quoted something printed by the Society that referred to Pluto as a planet, does that mean that Jehovah's Witnesses today must believe Pluto to be a planet even thought back on August 23, 2006, the International Astronomical Union voted in the Prague to strip Pluto of its status as a planet, so that we consider it today to be a dwarf planet?
I dont think I was wrong Djeggnog.
Ok.
Ezekiel chapter 4 was as the Watchtower of 1968 in the article....
I don't care to discuss with you something you read in a 1968 Watchtower article? Jehovah's Witnesses do not defend obsolete interpretations since our understanding of the Scriptures is progressive, which means that what things we might understand a certain way today may change six months, even six weeks from now.
@djeggnog wrote:
Whatever, but many of the articles that appear in our publications that contain misleading statements in them weren't intentionally designed to mislead anyone, but just weren't caught by the proofreaders before they were published. If you must, I'd agree that many of the interpretations that we have published in the past could be described as conjecture for we might not realize at the time that that a conclusion we have reached is based on incomplete facts. In the English language, there is no such thing as "speculative facts."
@ziddina wrote:
So, what does that say about the Governing Body members who review, approve of and sign off on each and every article???
This says that those that sit as a governing body aren't responsible for the errors and omissions of those that previously sat as members of the governing body (like Knorr and Franz) and this also should make crystal clear to you that they are men that failed to carefully proofread the articles that were eventually appeared in some of our publications, and that they are not infallible. What do you think the fact that some articles contain things in them that they really should not contain?
@djeggnog
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25
Why doesn't the WT close the religion?
by Aussie Oz ini was pondering the other day, why the watchtower corporation doesn't just sell off all the kingdom halls and hang the jws out to dry seeing they make far more $$$ from business than peddling the religion these days.. then it dawned on me... they need to keep that little sideline going for the tax breaks!.
slow learner i guess.. oz .
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djeggnog
@ex360shipper:
DJ -- If you honestly feel you are not violating your earthly leaders commands by visiting this website and communicating with us, then feel free to post your picture, name and congregation. If not, you are a liar and I have nothing further to discuss with you.
I am not obliged to abide by anyone's man-made commands or "rules," for I am someone that is guided by his own Bible-trained conscience. As a matter of fact, I enjoy such Christian freedom that I don't concern myself with violating anyone's "rules," for I am conscious of none.
Anyway, why would I compromise my anonymity on a dare? If you want to talk to me, talk to me here on JWN. You may be one of those internet creeps that like to stalk people and I have no desire that you stalk me. Are you friends with @cantleave, by any chance? He made a similar request. Like I told @cantleave, I would be an idiot to give such information to a stranger when I wouldn't invite you into my home.
@djeggnog