Justin

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Posts by Justin

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  21

  Were there as many 1st century converts as the bible says?

  by gumby in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the bible tells us that christians had multiplied rapidly shortly after christs death.

  are the figures accurate?.

  acts 2:41 says that after hearing teachings by peter "the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

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  Justin

  
  The Bible scholar Bart Ehrman has stated that he considers the Acts to be about as historically accurate as the Gospels. That is, that there is a historical core to it, but it is not history. This is the Bible book which the WTS uses to support the idea of the Christian congregation as a centralized, unified organization - and that is just what the author of Acts desired that the Christianity of his day would become. In such a work, the actual historical details can be thematized. For example, taking the miracle stories in the Gospels, it is likely that if Jesus was an actual historical person (and the a-historical approach has not so far been accepted by mainline scholarship), he did perform healings - but the examples in the Gospels may be likely stories rather than specific examples of those cures. In the same way, small scattered groups of proto-Christians may have experienced charismatic phenomena, and this is thematized by the story of the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost. This thematizing would include the large number of converts received even on that first day of the Church's existence. But, as narkissos has pointed out, this ignores the thought that the early Jesus movement was also found in Galilee - as indicated by the promise attributed to the risen Christ that he would meet the disciples in Galilee. The way Acts presents the movement as centered in Jerusalem is reminiscent of Isaiah's prophecy, that the word of YHWH would go forth from Jerusalem. (Isa. 2:3)

  The statement in Acts 21:20, however, that there were thousands of believers among the Jews by the time James had his dealings with Paul - being a statement which, if historical, would have been made sometime in the 60's of the first century - is probably correct for the time it was supposedly made. This would be the case whether it is an actual recollection of a real conversation, or simply another literary device.

  And just for the record, I have not made these statements as an atheist, but as a liberal Christian.
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  63

  Book - "A People for His Name" by Timothy White

  by VM44 in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  .

  "a people for his name" by timothy white is an early, but still excellent, book about the history of the jws.. here is a page containing portions from the book.

  http://members.fortunecity.com/peopleforhisname/peopleforhisname.htm.

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  Justin

  I was able to read the book in a library, and appreciated it very much.
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  61

  Underground Reformed JW movement

  by RealNewLight in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is a movement which has been growing slowly but steadily among young people in spanish and portuguese speaking congregations in the united states.

  basically it is a movement created by winesses who believe in much of the teachings of the organization, but do not believe in the authority of the wts, or any other body.

  they also do not believe in disfellowshiping, and believe that every decision should be a personal conscience matter.

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  Justin

  What is needed is a separate forum for people who are disillusioned with the organization but feel that they cannot leave because of family, life-long committment, and so on. Then they won't have to worry about who it is safe to talk to, nor will they have to continually consider the possibility of leaving if this option is not right for them. This may not reform the organization, but at least it will provide support for people in this situation. Being able to work the system from within is a different path from those on their way out.
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  52

  Where did God go??

  by fairchild in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  it has been over 10 months now since i stopped going to the kingdom hall.

  i had imagined how i would really find my way to god now that i was no longer being misled by the wts ( for - profit) publishing company.

  i kept reading the bible, because people on jwd had told me how i would see it in a different light.

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  Justin

  The God of organized religion doesn't seem to be working for you right now. If you try too hard to find answers, you may not find any. So open yourself up to another revelation - take up bird watching! Not as a hobby, but as a spiritual practice. Get a good field guide and learn to identify the different species of birds where you live. However, even this won't work if you keep thinking about God while your watching the birds and thinking of them as proof of intelligent design. Just observe their habits and get your mind off your problems. You'll be in paradise here and now. Perhaps later God will be revealed to you in a more personal way, so I'm not asking you to abandon the quest. But for now, it's time for something new.
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  8

  Raising the Standards

  by Justin in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i remember back in the '70's, when the co visited, he stated from the platform that there were people working at bethel who had been there for many years and who had initially started, not because they were interested in the truth, but because they wanted some means of support.

  (not, of course, that they would make good money, but at least have room and board.

  ) now the society had gotten wise to them and made all the bethelites take a written examination on the basic beliefs, and the ones who flunked were dismissed.

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  Justin

  Well, there's been no confirmation here, and we probably have ex-Bethelites on the forum. It does sound far fetched, and I think Fair Mind is probably right that the CO did not present the full situation as it actually was. But neither can we compare the Society's policies of years ago to the ones today, and so my answer to Lady Lee would be that it is quite possible that Bethelites were not screened like they are today. The CO did say that the ones dismissed did not have the knowledge that the average publisher has. One would think that they must have been severely disabled if this is true.
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  1

  An Unlikely Story

  by Justin in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it was in the midst of the 1930's, and judge rutherford was being driven in his limousine down a dusty country road in the midwest of the usa.

  passing through a small town, he came upon a donut shop and asked his driver to pull over, for the judge was quite hungry.

  as they were sitting at the table with their donuts and coffee, the judge spotted a catholic priest with his roman collar at another table.

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  Justin

  It was in the midst of the 1930's, and Judge Rutherford was being driven in his limousine down a dusty country road in the midwest of the USA. Passing through a small town, he came upon a donut shop and asked his driver to pull over, for the Judge was quite hungry. As they were sitting at the table with their donuts and coffee, the Judge spotted a Catholic priest with his Roman collar at another table. Unbeknownst to the Judge, it was the likeable Father O'Malley who had connections in Hollywood. As he sipped his coffee and ate his donut, all Rutherford could think was, "Religion is a snare and a racket!"

  The Great Depression had not yet run its course, and there were plenty of beggars around (just like today). A poor, disheveled young man - obviously out of work - entered the shop and approached the proprietor. "Mr. Johnson," he asked, "do you have any donuts for me today?" "You know what you have to do to get a donut, boy?" was the reply. "You have to dance."

  "Aw, do I have to?" "If you want to eat, you do." And then Johnson raised his voice to his customers: "It's time for some entertainment, folks!" With that the young begger started dancing up a storm - twerling around from table to table, and tap dancing as if he was Fred Astaire.

  "How disgusting!" came remarks from the clients. "To think that he takes advantage of the unfortunate fellow!" With that, Father O'Malley addressed the dancer: "You've really got talent, son! I know some people out in Hollywood, California who would like to meet you. You could even be in the movies!"

  Not to be outdone by the priest, Judge Rutherford spoke up: "Boy! I run a printing operation in New York, and I could use a new journeyman printer. How about it?"

  So the lad was now at a crossroads. What would he do with his life? . . .
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  167

  Of Late Many Here Seem To Be Preaching Aethiesm..

  by Qcmbr in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i first came here a while back there was plenty of discussion around and about jw topics and general chit chat but of late i've felt quite a sharp increase in posts that are: .

  1/ preaching aethism (as opposed to putting it forward in a respectful way as an alternate viewpoint.

  2/ vitriolic attacks on those who dare have another view ('damn those stupid heretical believers') .

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  Justin

  People who post here are on various levels of understanding, maturity, etc., and especially new posters should be answered according to the level they are coming from. I have seen questions which simply presuppose that the Bible is an inspired book, and they are expecting an answer with the same presupposition but are given a critical answer instead. There are people who have never thought to question the existence of God - they are asking what God might be like, and are given an atheist answer. I think when we see someone is coming from a completely different space, we should stand back and let those who can help them do so. Otherwise, we're still acting like JWs who have to take every opportunity to impose the "real truth" on others regardless of the consequences. If we don't respect where people are coming from, we're just driving new ones away who might otherwise be rescued from the organization.
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  8

  Raising the Standards

  by Justin in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i remember back in the '70's, when the co visited, he stated from the platform that there were people working at bethel who had been there for many years and who had initially started, not because they were interested in the truth, but because they wanted some means of support.

  (not, of course, that they would make good money, but at least have room and board.

  ) now the society had gotten wise to them and made all the bethelites take a written examination on the basic beliefs, and the ones who flunked were dismissed.

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  Justin

  I remember back in the '70's, when the CO visited, he stated from the platform that there were people working at Bethel who had been there for many years and who had initially started, not because they were interested in the truth, but because they wanted some means of support. (Not, of course, that they would make good money, but at least have room and board.) Now the Society had gotten wise to them and made all the Bethelites take a written examination on the basic beliefs, and the ones who flunked were dismissed. The CO thought this was something to be proud of, that such people would no longer be tolerated.

  At the time I could see that expelling people who had been admitted with the understanding that their labor alone was required, who had been supported for years and were now older and could do nothing else with their lives was wrong. It would have been one thing to test all the newcomers, and not allow someone to start working at Bethel who didn't know the basics, but it was wrong to make this retroactive and expel people who had nowhere else to go - no pension, medical benefits, etc.

  Does anyone know anything more about this - perhaps former Bethelites who were there at the time?
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  12

  New Fun Game! "Name that Watchtower Book"!

  by Nathan Natas in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here's how it works: i post an unaltered exerpt from a watchtower publication, and you tell me the title of the book.. sounds like fun?.

  you bet!.

  here's your first stumper:suppose a farmer owned a sheep that had been bad, and was condemned to die.

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  Justin

  I stand corrected on the publication. Looks like I got the date of publication wrong as well (should have been 1925, not 1924).
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  12

  New Fun Game! "Name that Watchtower Book"!

  by Nathan Natas in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here's how it works: i post an unaltered exerpt from a watchtower publication, and you tell me the title of the book.. sounds like fun?.

  you bet!.

  here's your first stumper:suppose a farmer owned a sheep that had been bad, and was condemned to die.

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  Justin

  It was The Way to Paradise, by W.E. Van Amburgh in 1924. But again, I think he published it on his own.