I would say that the writer here is aware of a relationship between some of the Bible stories and mythology. For example, he probably believes that the Genesis account is the original for the Greek myths of gods having offspring through women, fathering demigods. Hades itself is an appropriation from the Greek mythology as being a good approximation of the Hebrew Sheol. Both of these were considered to refer to the underworld, and as such they were mythological places, though Sheol can also be regarded as simply the grave. But it is the modern mind, which has to some extent been freed from mythology, which sees them as simply being conditions or the death state itself. Likewise, the writer here considered ("Peter") has appropriated another mythological category - Tartarus - because he thinks that there is a place quite like the Greek Tartarus in which the disobedient spirits have been imprisoned. It is as if the Greek myths are a shadow of something which is the real possession of the Judeo-Christian God.
Justin
JoinedPosts by Justin
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TARTARUS - please explain why it is in the Bible
by Severus inhonest question here.
tartarus is mentioned once in 1 peter 2:4:.
.certainly if god did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;.
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None of the 144,000 lived in Jesus day?
by LovesDubs in.
somewhere in my head i recall someone saying that since there was no proof or record of them being baptised that the so-called (the jws word) "christians" who died in the lion's pit were therefore not of the 144,000!!!
how do the jws justify there not being 144,000 true christians from 33ce to 1900??
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Justin
So the current WT explanation is that many of the "Christians" who were martyrs were already apostate - but this does not mean that there weren't anointed ones from the first century onward.
Russell and the early WTS could acknowledge that there were many more true Christians than just the 144,000 because the "great crowd" was acknowledged to be a secondary heavenly class. These were acknowledged to have been in line for the heavenly kingdom, but failed to fulfill their "covenant of sacrifice" in giving up the good things of earth. If might be difficult to understand how, then, they could have been martyrs - but the explanation was that these were people who had been forced by circumstances into giving up the earthly life rather than having self-sacrifice become a regular, daily practice. Their final martyrdom at the last minute did not qualify them to finally be of the 144,000.
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No information for the great crowd in the bible......................
by vitty inim not very articulate and find it hard to explain myself but here goes-------------------.
i always wondered (not too deeply).
everything was about the hope for a resurrection in heaven, nothing about an earthly paradise.
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Justin
Narkissos,
You're right, of course, and that's why I stated that the text might have a more specific meaning in light of the context. Such statements as this may have lead to the Patristic idea that one can have a "baptism of blood" which is valid even if no water baptism has occurred - that is, one's death as a martyr will have cancelled out all guilt. Though not exactly Pauline, this would encompass the belief that the one so baptized has passed the test - is righteous in God's sight forevermore. So it does contrast with the WT view that the "great crowd" has a thousand years yet to go before passing the final test and then being declared righteous. But I would imagine that traditional commentators, whether Catholic or Protestant, would understand it to refer to justification taking place sometime during one's life (for the Protestants, a once-for-all justification, and for Catholics a justification which is renewed in the sacrament of Confession). Either way, it definitely contrasts with the WT.
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No information for the great crowd in the bible......................
by vitty inim not very articulate and find it hard to explain myself but here goes-------------------.
i always wondered (not too deeply).
everything was about the hope for a resurrection in heaven, nothing about an earthly paradise.
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Justin
The present standing of the "great crowd" with God is one of the most serious theological problems of the WT. It has never been clearly defined. Consider Revelation 7:14(b), which states that they "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Whatever the specific meaning in light of the context, to any Christian expositor it would at least mean that they have been justified (declared righteous). But this cannot be true of the JW "great crowd," for they will not be declared righteous until they pass the final test at the end of the thousand years. They do not share in the imputation of Christ's righteousness with the "little flock," but must wait in order to attain actual human perfection. In this respect, they are no different from those who will return in the resurrection who have never served God in this life. The "great crowd" have not received the "adoption as sons," they have never been "born again" or participated in any of the relationships which Christ's anointed body members have. So what is their standing? Over the years, the WT has waivered on this subject, but has been pretty consistent in its teachings about the anointed - because these at least have some basis in the NT (though the number 144,000 is controversial). At first, the "great crowd" were not even considered to be Christians or Jehovah's Witnesses, but now they serve in an inner courtyard of the spiritual temple and some of them are considered Nethinim. As I say, it is one of the worst problems the WT has created (theologically, that is), and it applies to the vast majority of JWs.
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The great pyramid
by OneLord inmost people would consider it very wacky to connect the pyramid of gizah with the bible.
russell's claim was that the pyramid, the 1.st wonder of the world, was a witness down the ages containing god's plan.
the teachings and ideas on this seem to be so complex, that few people would spend / waste the time required to study these things.
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Justin
Those who have no previous exposure to pyramidology may find this link of interest:
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Intolerance - a new breed of ex-JW
by LittleToe in.
i cant help but think of the analogy of pendulum swings when i think about how vitriolic some are towards religion (of any description), the bible (and other scripture), and christianity (generally, regardless of there being a wide range of denominational flavours) in particular.. it seems to me, from my perspective of sitting here on a remote scottish island, that there are a fair number of folks who may have left an intolerant and generalising religion but forgot to leave those attitudes with it.. just my 2p, coz to be frank i'm getting sick of it.. by all means enjoy some self-expression, it's a relatively free planet, but have a heart....
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Justin
As has been pointed out, people should be met where they are. I don't think it's helpful, for instance, if someone asks how the WTS knows how many of the 144,000 are left, for them to be told that the whole subject is mythological anyway - that there isn't even a God to pick the 144,000, let alone a heavenly kingdom, etc. Let those who are willing to deal with the subject on its own terms attempt to help those people. In the same way, I don't think that someone who has declared themselves an atheist should be told by a believer to "try Jesus"! If we imply that what matters to people is actually irrelevant, then I think we are also implying that the people themselves are irrelevant.
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1000 Year Reign of Christ - A little help please
by rassillon inok all you wile e. coyote super genius types.... .
i have been looking at some of russell's charts and such and it is indicated that the millinial reign of christ would have begun in 1874 new understanding 1914..... .
does this mean that we are now living nearly a 100 years into the 1000 year reign?
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Justin
Yes, according to Russell's understanding the Millennium begins around the time of the Parousia of Christ (for Russell, 1874), but for current JWs it must wait until Armageddon. For Russell, there was an overlapping of the ages, which meant that the 40 years of harvest (1874 - 1914) coincided with the beginning of restitution blessings.To Russell, Daniel 12:4 seemed to refer to the beginning of restitution even while the time of the end was still running (and to Russell, the time of the end had begun even earlier than 1874 - in 1799). That text reads: "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (italics added) This was taken as a prediction of modern means of transportation, such as the railroad, and the increase in knowledge was understood to refer to knowledge in all fields - not simply Bible understanding.
Another favorite text was Isaiah 21:11-12 which reads, in part: "Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night? The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night." (italics added) This was understood to teach that the Millennial morning would dawn first, and then the night of Armageddon would come. This is why the original series title for Studies in the Scriptures was Millennial Dawn, because of the belief that the Millennium had already dawned.
It was not until 1943 that the WTS came to the conclusion that 6,000 years of human history would end in the mid-1970's, and that Russell had been 100 years off in his calculations, thus pushing the start of the Millennium into the future. (Of course, it did not start even in 1975, but that's another story.)
It's always important not to confuse current understandings with the original teachings of Russell.
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Are there not enough anti-Witness books out there?
by free2beme inevery once in awhile i will read comments about someone thinking a new anti-witness book needs to be written, to expose something.
well, recently i took the time to look over the search engines of the internet and found something interesting.
when you type in "jehovah's witness" or "watchtower", you found almost 3 to 1, negative sites and information on the witnesses.
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Justin
I also think there is a need for more and more books. Books typically have a shelf-life in the stores. It doesn't matter how good a book may be. For the publisher, it is a financial investment and when it brings diminishing returns it will go out of print. True, some of these books will appear in libraries, but even then they will no longer be available for all readers. Also, as has been mentioned, due to the ever-changing beliefs of JWs, books rapidly become dated. They must be replaced by up-to-date material.
Books are a good introduction to this religion for those with no previous exposure - people whose relatives are becoming JWs or people who are considering a JW as a significant other. A good book begins the subject matter with the assumption that the reader knows nothing about it, and it proceeds to develop the subject in a logical, cohesive order. Someone with no previous knowledge who searches the internet, on the other hand, may find the information overwhelming - as if they were jumping on a merry-go-round. I would hope that more books will be published soon.
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The Watchtower Society Reforms! Would you go back?
by Fleshybirdfodder ini don't think i would under any circumstances.
under what criteria would you?
or wouldn't you?
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Justin
I can't imagine what form a reformation would take, but if they gave up their authoritarian ways and stopped oppressing their people, I wouldn't return as a member but I would be willing to attend some cultural or social gathering as a token that the conflict was finished and there would be peace between the WTS and its disaffected apostates at last.
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Whats the aim of the people in charge?
by JoeSinclair ini was about to post another reply to my previous thread but i decided a new thread would be appropriate for this question.. i have learned a lot in the last few days about the jw organisation and the waverings towards cult-like behaviour.
i have read web sites listing cult like characteristics and then examples of what the watchtower chaps have done that looks similar.
it was tempting, at first, to think that i am hearing from a collective of disaffected people who have been hard done by and to assume the reality lies somewhere nearer the middle than you guys say it is.
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Justin
The problem with a "cult run by committee," as jgnat calls it, is that it prevents the emergence of a dynamic leader who could rescue the WTS from the inertia which eventually is going to run it down. It seems they have arrived at crossroads. They can (1) wind the prophetic timeclock up again, drop the dates which were emphasized in the past, and start all over again with some other scenario or (2) loosen the reins and allow the membership to settle down without the constant prodding to perform - which would be the first step in going mainline. There is, however, no one to make the decision. At least a benevolent dictator who could decide would be better that what they've got now.