Posts by Cicatrix

34

brutalized toddlers

by little witch in

does anyone remember the advice from from the stage, encouraging mothers to remove babies from the room when they were hungry?.

how about, wooden spoons to beat toddlers into submission, preferably in front of the congegation, as to set an example in disipline?

was this just in our hall, or was it from the borg?

We had the district overseer and the circuit overseer over to our home one time for lunch (we lived five minutes from the hall). The do picked up a ruler I had in the kitchen and told me to use it to discipline my children. He said I should never use my hand, as a parent's hand signifies love to a child.

I was talked to repeatedly for not spanking my children enough.I was counselled for removing my children from the main hall and sitting with them in the library or the restroom when they got antsy.I was told to spank them and take them back out in the main hall.

My father used to hit me with his belt when I was little. I distinctly recall the arm that was attached to that belt was his, hand and all.

I skipped a lot of meetings when my kid were little.

27

WERE YOU A "GOOD" PUBLISHER?

by minimus in

jw
friends

one of the first "privileges" any prospective witness has is that of being a publisher.of course, once you're a publisher,you are one for life.

so, either you are a "good" publisher or a "bad" one.

a good publisher has to get the national average,be a "good" example, and pretty much do whatever the elders ask of you.

Cicatrix

I was a bit of an enigma. If you went by hourly requirements, I was a horrible publisher.I had this personal little "shortcomming", you see. I would only go out in service when I felt in my heart that I really really wanted to go and talk to people about the Bible.That was maybe one or two days a month, tops, with gaps of two to six months of irregularity not uncommon. And surprise of all surprises, I always had very good response at the doors(how the regulars hated this fact--kinda blew their theory of "the more you do it, the better you get at it, and the more results you'll get).I really enjoyed getting to know people, and talking with them about the Bible. I liked to hear their perspective.I must say, I learned a lot at the doors. I never had any Bible studies, though. I turned all of my "prospects" over to the pioneers.Just helping out those pioneers anyway I could, you know:)

The pubs hated to see me arrive at the service meeting.I usually got assigned with two other sisters. They would go to one door together, and I would work every other one by myself. Or I'd be the only woman in a car full of men (boy did the local town gossips have fun with this one). One time, the guy who was assigned to go out with me just got up and went home! Left me standin at the kingdom hall all by my lonesome, after everyone else except my kids and I had started out in the field.The thing was, he was the one with the territory. Boo hoo. I went home and had a great morning lounging around the house in my pjs watching cartoons with my kids:)

Now I get to do it every weekend, and there's no one calling me bugging me about my time and being Irregular. AAAkk! Irregular--that sounds like a laxative commercial.

5

Helping children deal with leaving

by Cicatrix in

i think it just really hit home with my nine year-old son that this time we are not going to go back to meetings.

he's been asking a lot of questions, and reminiscing about past events nostalgically, yet he is really looking forward to celebrating holidays this year and playing organised soccer next summer.i try to answer his questions to his satisfaction, yet i can sense the confusion he feels and i'm not quite sure how to make him understand ( he seems to think that he shouldn't believe in god because he's not going to meetings anymore,although i've told him that he of course can believe in god).

i imagine all of my kids are going through a similar process as myself right now-good days and bad.some of them wanted to leave before i did, and are handling it pretty well.one of my teenage sons was reluctant about my decision, but i explained to him that my decision to da was my own, and that if he wanted to continue going, i wasn't going to stop him.my daughter, however, discussed the whole silent lambs issue with him, and he was shocked, to say the least,and not so keen on continuing when she told him about this(he told me this himself).. so, for you parents who have been there-do you have any tips for easing their transistion?did you do anything that seem to help your kids?how do you handle kid's questions about religion, when you're not sure of the answers yourself anymore?.

Cicatrix

Thank you, Xena.It looks like I am on the right track, then, because that is what I have been doing.One of the things my kids really missed out on was organised sports,so next summer, I'm going to let them play soccer.

I don't have any family who are JWs.My parents studied for a long while, but my mother was never permitted to be baptised (no reason was given),so they quit.That armageddon threat is one of the things I really hated,so my kids have heard my opinion on that a number of times:)They are a bit older, also (my youngest is nine),so I don't think it will be much of an issue.

I think getting involved with their school friends and school activities will help.The meetings were such a ritual, it seems odd to not be filling time with it, yet we are all relieved.The lid to the pressure cooker is opened,and we can all breathe again.We used to get really cranky getting ready for meetings.We'd even fight all the way there in the car.I never realized until recently that it was a stress reaction, though.The last meeting I tried to attend,I had a full blown panic attack.That's when I knew I could never go back.Now, we sleep in late on Sundays and have a relaxed family breakfast.Then a lot of the times, my husband takes the boys out on the motorcycle trails.We visit friends and family-all the things we yearned to do while we were at the Kingdom Hall for yet another meeting.

Over the past few days, I've noticed my kids are starting to define for themselves what they will continue to do, and what they will discard.There is a bit of a tendency to want to hang on to some practices.One son doesn't want to do some holiday related things in school, but wants to do them at home.Poor thing-he argued with his classmates for years,now we're doing a total reverse in thinking.Even though he has always wanted to celebrate holidays, he doesn't want to put up with the teasing and I told you so from his peers.So I guess we'll just take it day by day, and I'll let them decide for themselves how they want to handle it.

Regardless of the confusion, they definitely seem happier and more at peace now:)

5

Helping children deal with leaving

by Cicatrix in

i think it just really hit home with my nine year-old son that this time we are not going to go back to meetings.

he's been asking a lot of questions, and reminiscing about past events nostalgically, yet he is really looking forward to celebrating holidays this year and playing organised soccer next summer.i try to answer his questions to his satisfaction, yet i can sense the confusion he feels and i'm not quite sure how to make him understand ( he seems to think that he shouldn't believe in god because he's not going to meetings anymore,although i've told him that he of course can believe in god).

i imagine all of my kids are going through a similar process as myself right now-good days and bad.some of them wanted to leave before i did, and are handling it pretty well.one of my teenage sons was reluctant about my decision, but i explained to him that my decision to da was my own, and that if he wanted to continue going, i wasn't going to stop him.my daughter, however, discussed the whole silent lambs issue with him, and he was shocked, to say the least,and not so keen on continuing when she told him about this(he told me this himself).. so, for you parents who have been there-do you have any tips for easing their transistion?did you do anything that seem to help your kids?how do you handle kid's questions about religion, when you're not sure of the answers yourself anymore?.

Cicatrix

Thanks for your suggestions, Dia.I'm going to note the authors and books you suggested looking into and see if I can find any of them.

I'm personally not ready to examine any one religion seriously yet, but I'm looking forward to studying as many of them as I can from the perspective of the followers.Get the facts from the source, I say.I'm not just interested in Christianity, but in religion in general.I especially want to learn more about Native American faiths, Wicca, various other "country dweller" paths:), and the Eastern religions.

I've had the good fortune to have travelled much of the world when I was a child (and in fact distinctly remember experiencing culture shock when my family moved back to the United States when I was ten).Although a lot of the memories have faded, I've been left with a feeling of being joined with all of humanity, and to the beautiful places on the earth that I was privileged to see.I love how we are all unique, yet somehow the same.I love to seek out persons with backgrounds very different from mine and get to know them.I am truly looking forward to being a citizen of the earth, as well as of my own country.

I hope I can share with my children and help them appreciate and respect people of all different backgrounds.I've always attempted to do this, even while a JW, but it was hard when everything was held up to the standard of one "absolute" religion(one can't really get the entire essence of a different culture if you don't use that culture's mores to understand it alot of the time).I'm very glad now that I was a "spiritually weak"(would that be independently thinking?) parent:)I never did really get with the program, because it all felt too forced,and I never believed that faith should be crammed down my children's throats like a plate of brussels sprouts just because it was supposed to be "good for them".Where does free will fit in when your child, who would rather be out playing baseball, is stuck in the house for a family Bible study on a lovely summer evening? Yet sometimes, that old feeling that was foisted on me by critcal hardliners that I was somehow deficient as a parent comes back, and I really have to fight not to lose the knowledge that I have done the right thing.

Yes, we are all a bit confused right now,but it's been the great catalyst for many insightful conversations.My nine year-old wanted to know the other day why the persons who crashed into the WTC could kill so many people and still consider themselves to be approved by God.It was the perfect chance for me to discuss indoctrination and extremists views of religion, and to let him know that the majority of the people of that faith absolutely do not feel the way that group did.I gently related this to WTS policy,being careful to let him lead the conversation and quit when he got uncomfortable.

One thing we are all giddy with is the freedom to just be who we are and learn about what we want in the way that we want.I will never give that freedom up to another organization or person again.

1

Anyone's take on Donnie Darko?

by Cicatrix in

i saw the movie awhile back.i watched it twice and was left feeling?????

yet, somehow i'm still wondering why do i have an emotional connection-what is this reminding me of(no, i have not travelled back in time lol).. when i was a kid, i used to have nightmares about a huge rabbit(i think i watched too many episodes of dark shadows and too many harvey re-runs).maybe that's the connection.i don't know.the movie doesn't scare me, on one level i think it's kind of lame.

still,it made sit up and take notice, but i'm still not sure what i'm reacting to.. anyone else have a take on how it made you feel?

Cicatrix

I saw the movie awhile back.I watched it twice and was left feeling????? Yet, somehow I'm still wondering why do I have an emotional connection-what is this reminding me of(no, I have not travelled back in time lol).

When I was a kid, I used to have nightmares about a huge rabbit(I think I watched too many episodes of Dark Shadows and too many Harvey re-runs).Maybe that's the connection.I don't know.The movie doesn't scare me, on one level I think it's kind of lame. Still,it made sit up and take notice, but I'm still not sure what I'm reacting to.

Anyone else have a take on how it made you feel?

39

I'm just curious.........

by WildHorses in

jw
friends

i want to get an idea of how many people have left the org in the past five years.

which of the following years did you leave?.

1998 i left.

Cicatrix

January 2002 unoficially.August 2002 officially,although I've been wavering since 1998.

12

Favorite books

by StinkyPantz in

i love

to read but i've recently gotten bored with it; mostly because i've read all of the books by my favorite authors: stephen king, dean koontz, mary higgins clark, john saul

james patterson.

Cicatrix

Have you tried Alfred Hitchcock or Edgar Allen Poe?Both have some interesting yarns to spin.I was reading a book about raven behavior at McDonald's this week,and one of the employees kept sweeping closer and closer to my table trying to read my book title. He finally worked up the nerve to ask me if I was reading Poe, as he loves him.I told him no, but that I had read pretty much everything he wrote in the past(loved "The Tell-Tale Heart and "Fall of the House of Usher" and of course, the poem "The Raven").My grandfather gave me a book of Alfred Hitchcock stories when I was about 10.Alas, I lost it years ago:(

I also like Micheal Crichton and love Stephen King(but man, his books sure don't translate to the screen-I about died laughing watching "Tommyknockers").I read a really sexycool book about werewolves about a year ago, but I can't for the life of me remember who wrote it or what the title was!

I absolutely love to read! I like Ayn Rand,Mark Twain,Lucy Maude Montgomery("The Blue Castle"),Sinclair Lewis, Tolstoy("The Death of Ivan Ilych and Other Stories" is my fave),John Grisham, Virginia Woolf, Jane Austen, Terry McMillan,the Bronte sisters,Scott O'Dell, Jack London,Madeline L'Engle, LaVyrle Spencer, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Robert Heinlein, Arthur Conan Doyle(everything Sherlock),Nathaniel Hawthorne,Henry David Thorough,Laura Ingalls Wilder, Gary Paulsen, and Dr Seus, amongst many others. My nine year-old and I share a common love of Shakespeare (he has collected Shakespeare stuff since he was five).I particularly like "Othello" and "The Tempest", and "Sonnet 116".

I savored "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand this winter.A great read about controlling societies!

Another book that's really made me think is "Women Who Run With the Wolves" by Clarissa Pinkola Estes.

I want to read "Frankenstein, The Modern Prometheus", and some of Anne Rice's stuff my next break from school.

5

Helping children deal with leaving

by Cicatrix in

i think it just really hit home with my nine year-old son that this time we are not going to go back to meetings.

he's been asking a lot of questions, and reminiscing about past events nostalgically, yet he is really looking forward to celebrating holidays this year and playing organised soccer next summer.i try to answer his questions to his satisfaction, yet i can sense the confusion he feels and i'm not quite sure how to make him understand ( he seems to think that he shouldn't believe in god because he's not going to meetings anymore,although i've told him that he of course can believe in god).

i imagine all of my kids are going through a similar process as myself right now-good days and bad.some of them wanted to leave before i did, and are handling it pretty well.one of my teenage sons was reluctant about my decision, but i explained to him that my decision to da was my own, and that if he wanted to continue going, i wasn't going to stop him.my daughter, however, discussed the whole silent lambs issue with him, and he was shocked, to say the least,and not so keen on continuing when she told him about this(he told me this himself).. so, for you parents who have been there-do you have any tips for easing their transistion?did you do anything that seem to help your kids?how do you handle kid's questions about religion, when you're not sure of the answers yourself anymore?.

Cicatrix

I think it just really hit home with my nine year-old son that this time we are not going to go back to meetings. He's been asking a lot of questions, and reminiscing about past events nostalgically, yet he is really looking forward to celebrating holidays this year and playing organised soccer next summer.I try to answer his questions to his satisfaction, yet I can sense the confusion he feels and I'm not quite sure how to make him understand ( he seems to think that he shouldn't believe in God because he's not going to meetings anymore,although I've told him that he of course can believe in God). I imagine all of my kids are going through a similar process as myself right now-good days and bad.Some of them wanted to leave before I did, and are handling it pretty well.One of my teenage sons was reluctant about my decision, but I explained to him that my decision to DA was my own, and that if he wanted to continue going, I wasn't going to stop him.My daughter, however, discussed the whole silent lambs issue with him, and he was shocked, to say the least,and not so keen on continuing when she told him about this(he told me this himself).

So, for you parents who have been there-do you have any tips for easing their transistion?Did you do anything that seem to help your kids?How do you handle kid's questions about religion, when you're not sure of the answers yourself anymore?

Fortunately, my kids had mostly nonwitness friends, so they already have others to hang out with.I've been trying to keep them busy having their friends over.It's been good for them.Their friends seem to be true friends-they liked my kids when they were witnesses, and they like them just as much now that they are not.It will be an interesting lesson in conditional love when the announcement is made that I have dissassociated myself and the kids get to witness how my "friends" treat me.

My son and I had a very interesting conversation the other day.I gently informed him that when the congregation hears that I have dissassociated myself, they will no longer talk to me.I told him that his friends would not be allowed to come over to our house, or in all probability, talk to him either.He sat and thought about it for a moment and said "You know Mom, So and So always seemed like a real know-it-all to me.He was very bossy, even to grown ups."It was an astute observation from a nine year-old, he pegged this kid's personality to a t.But I wasn't quite sure how his answer fit in with our conversation. Was he telling me he was okay with what might happen, or was he changing the subject because it was just too painful for him to deal with?

I'm keeping an open dialog with all of them.We've been having a lot of discussions along the line of "Wow, it's going to feel weird to celebrate Halloween, birthdays, Christmas, etc.Then we talk about the things we will do.My youngest has asked me to explain to his teacher and the principal that we are no longer Jehovah's Witnesses, and I told him I would do that.Some neighbors have already invited him to attend their church, but having formerly attended it myself, I don't really want him to.It's a very hell-oriented church(hellbent? lol) and I don't think he needs to be exposed to anymore manipulation.I told him he can attend when he is 18.Another wants to run for student council, and I told him to go for it.He has a very people oriented personality, so I'm not surprised he has a political interest.

Any anecdotes or information would be appreciated. Are there any books to help parents on this issue?

Thanks for your help,

Cicatrix

26

Is it normal to feel jealousy???

by butalbee in

it's been over between us for months now, didn't end very good either.

i do regret hurting him like i did, but at the time, i needed to be free of him and any/all dubs.

i've finally moved on w/ my life, i have a wonderful new man in my life--who treats me like a princess--and i feel lucky to be w/ him.

Cicatrix

{{{Butalbee}}}

Sorry things are so tumultuous for you right now.

Emotions in and of themselves are not "right" or "wrong", they just are.That was one of the things I hated about the dub lifestyle-being expected to control everything, right down to how we feel about things.How passion for anything but God and the organization was practically a four-letter word.

I can tell you from experience, your jealousy is very normal.You cared deeply for the guy.Just because you were insightful enough to realize that you couldn't spend the rest of your life with him, that didn't completely erase your feelings for him.He's a part of your history.Our brains and hearts remember well.

The same thing happend to me years ago.I was in an intense relationship with my husband's best friend. I found out he didn't care about me as much as I cared for him when he abruptly and unceremoniously dumped me.Fortunately for me, he moved out of town shortly thereafter.My husband kept a respectful distance for a few months, then asked me out(we had been friends the whole time I was dating my ex).He later told me that he had wanted to date me the entire time I was with his friend.About six months after we started dating, my ex came back and asked me to go back with him.He even wanted me to move to state he lived in. I was torn, but I realized that my new boyfriend treated me a lot better than my "true love" had, and I turned my ex down.Still though, when mutual friends just had to tell me he got married about two years after my husband and I married, I cried for a week.My husband was hurt, but I had always been honest with him how I felt about his friend,so he just held me while I cried.It took ten years for the intensity of my feelings for that guy to fade, but they did.In the meantime, my husband did some really awful things that he needed to be forgiven for himself (not related in any way to my ex-partially related to JWs). Looking back now, I have a fond remembrance for that portion of my history, but I'm also able to see that he really was not the guy for me.

For many people who are in a relationship for any amount of time, jealousy is something that has to be dealt with.This will probably not be the last time you have to face it.It happens even in very good relationships, because as I said before,emotions just are.

It sounds to me that a lot of what you're grieving over is the fact that your ex didn't seem to want to make his relationship with you publicly known.That can really hurt when you care deeply about someone (my ex did that to me, also).I was curious as to why this might be so.Was it just a personal preference on his part, or was it due to some theocratic thing?If the latter is the fact, maybe part of what you are grieving is how your former religion interfered with your relationship.This happened to my husband and I in a very big way.

So go ahead and have a good cry, sweetie. Eat your favorite comfort foods, sing your heart out to some good break up tunes(maybe not if current beau is around).Then go take the hand of that guy who treats you like a princess and walk side by side with him.That's much better than having to walk so many paces behind like a woman from some Middle eastern country(they still do this,as I was told by an Iranian woman I recently met) because for whatever reason, the guy doesn't have enough respect for you or courage to acknowledge your relationship.

Hugs,

Cicatrix

PS Sorry my posts are so long-I'm a budding writer and am naturally wordy.I'm working on getting em shorter:)

18

Sent my DA letters out

by Cicatrix in

finally got up the nerve to send my da letters out yesterday.i sent them in lovely scarlet envelopes(in homage to nathaniel hawthorne's "the scarlet letter")with american flag stamps hehe.i wrote the letters on my hound dog stationary.thought it was fitting, having heard the old "dog returning to its vomit" speech a few gazillion times(hey, my lab and dal eat lots of vomit and they love horse manure-vet says they're the healthiest doggies around:)).. then i went out and bought a little christmas tree and some teeny tiny ornaments.yeah, i know, i'm rushing it a bit.but i really really missed celebrating christmas, and i didn't even admit that to myself until just recently.my kids were absolutely thrilled!

!this year will be their first everything.i'm going to buy them all "my first christmas" ornaments.. but first we have halloween and a few birthdays to do.my sons already got their first invitations to a birthday party.

my kids want me to go trick-or-treating with them.maybe i'll dress up as cruella deville and take my dalmatian puppy,sidhe, with me.. my,my, i'm running on and on like a kid at christmas...and halloween...and ..... it's good to be free.i don't care what the org boogeymen try now.i've said my piece to them,now i'm done with them.i don't have to sneak around and worry about whose seeing me do this or that.i'm the one who has chosen to leave-and you bet your boots i will hold certain ones to their own rules about not speaking to me lol.in this case, what comes around, goes around.i'm just glad to be off the org carousel.i'm a little dizzy yet, but still standing.. hehe-i'm getting punchy.i'm going to go to bed and sleep in on a sunday morning!!!

Cicatrix

Thank you everyone, for helping celebrate my freedom:)

Welcome Sstarli-I highly recommend you surf through the board and read the posts-you'll learn a lot.

Wow, what an awesome Christmas tree! My son wants us to do ours in gingerbread men and candy canes this year. He has always loved gingerbread men.I thought maybe we'd do a Little House on the Prairie kind of thing this year, as we are living off from one very modest income while I attend school full time.

Yes-a tree in August lol.Good old dollar stores-they have stuff months in advance.

And as for that old myth that former Witnesses fare badly-my sis and her hubby just gave us a gift of a substantial amount of money to thank us for all of the times we've been there to help them out financially in the past.It couldn't have come at a more needed time-not only for our finances, but for my peace of mind:) Yes, there's a lot of bad in the world today, but there's also a lot of good.I think the Witnesses just don't see most of the positive, because they are too busy looking for signs of impending doom.

I am really enjoying seeing the world in a more balanced way now:)