Posts by corpusdei

15

WT scars that run deep

by man in black in

my son who is 26 yrs.

old recently confided in my wife and myself that he is having a rough time moving on past the jw mindset.. he was associated with the witnesses for the first 24 years of his life, and he really tried to do the whole witness thing correctly, yet he was and still is a shy person.

now that he has been out for two years, he is having a lot of anger toward people who believe in god.

corpusdei

MIB>> I was in a similar situation to your son, I was raised as a Witness from a very young age until I finally started cutting ties around 18 or 19. For a very long time, when it came to the the idea of religion in general and the Witnesses in particular it wasn't just anger I felt, it was outright rage. I felt abused, I looked back at all the pain and shame and confusion and the lost childhood that resulted from my witness upbringing and I hated. And sometimes it didn't really matter who, I just hated.

I talk a little more about why here, but ultimately the Witness upbringing, particularly the seperation and isolation is abuse - it's abuse in the most insidious form because the WTBTS convinces parents that what they're doing to their kids is right, it's good, and parents do it because they love their kids and want the best for them.

I can only really speak for myself, but I don't think that anger ever really goes away. More than a decade later, I refuse to see my mother who remains a Witness primarily because of the religion - I refuse to allow her the opportunity to poison my family as she poisoned hers. But time does give distance, and the opportunity for that anger, perhaps not to fade, but become something that we can come to terms with.

Having him spend some time with a therapist would be a good idea, but I do agree with some of the other comments - first, be prepared for him to reject the idea to begin with and second, it needs to be a therapist that has training or experience in working with religious cults and the psychological consequences. If he's unconvinced, then point him over here. Growing up in the Witnesses is a unique experience - it really is one of those cases of if you haven't been through it, you don't know what it's like. With that, I know I and many of us would be more than willing to talk to him, even if it's just about what he's been through. Compare battle scars as it were ;)

In any case, I'll keep my fingers crossed for him (and damnit, I'll enjoy it too, because even that is a defiance of the Witness "there's no such thing as luck" BS). Let us know how things turn out.

7

WT Article: What Should Children Learn

by corpusdei in

i was just perusing the latest watchtower (available here) and noticed something that made me chuckle a little.

in one of the first articles talking about what children should learn, they quote exodus 22:22-24:.

what the bible teaches: you people must not affliict any... fatherless boy.

corpusdei

blindie>> You make a very good point - despite extolling the virtue of critical thought and criticism of arguments against Witness doctrine, any type of internal critical analysis by an individual Witness is, in practice, actively discouraged. That's really what got the ball rolling with my own crisis of faith - I actually read the bible like they suggested. Cover to cover. And, well, sh*t just didn't add up like they promised it would.

7

WT Article: What Should Children Learn

by corpusdei in

i was just perusing the latest watchtower (available here) and noticed something that made me chuckle a little.

in one of the first articles talking about what children should learn, they quote exodus 22:22-24:.

what the bible teaches: you people must not affliict any... fatherless boy.

corpusdei

What the Bible teaches: “Again and again they would put God to the test, and they pained even the Holy One of Israel.”—Psalm 78:41.
Lesson: Our speech and actions affect Jehovah’s feelings, so we should think before we speak and act

Damn straight. I'd sure be careful about annoying the Divine Orphan-Maker.

(OK, now I'm just being silly)

7

WT Article: What Should Children Learn

by corpusdei in

i was just perusing the latest watchtower (available here) and noticed something that made me chuckle a little.

in one of the first articles talking about what children should learn, they quote exodus 22:22-24:.

what the bible teaches: you people must not affliict any... fatherless boy.

corpusdei

I just noticed this, re-reading my post. In order to protect orphans, God is ready, prepared and willing to go out and make some new orphans. But no worries, those new orphans will be just fine, no trauma or anything from their parents getting killed by Divine Mandate. After all, they would know for an absolute fact that God is out there to protect them too.

7

WT Article: What Should Children Learn

by corpusdei in

i was just perusing the latest watchtower (available here) and noticed something that made me chuckle a little.

in one of the first articles talking about what children should learn, they quote exodus 22:22-24:.

what the bible teaches: you people must not affliict any... fatherless boy.

corpusdei

I was just perusing the latest Watchtower (available here) and noticed something that made me chuckle a little. In one of the first articles talking about what children should learn, they quote Exodus 22:22-24:

What the Bible teaches: “You people must not affliict any... fatherless boy. If you should afflict him at all, then if he cries out to me at all, I shall unfailingly hear his outcry.” —Exodus 22:22-24.
Lesson: Jehovah listens to the prayers of even small children. We can talk to God regularly and express our innermost thoughts and feelings to him.

I'm a great fan of examining quoted verses in context, and we already know that the Old Testament is full of fire and anger and cutting off of foreskins, so I thought "This one should be good". And sure enough:

22 YOU people must not afflict any widow or fatherless boy. 23 If you should afflict him at all, then if he cries out to me at all, I shall unfailingly hear his outcry; 24 and my anger will indeed blaze, and I shall certainly kill YOU with the sword, and YOUR wives must become widows and YOUR sons fatherless boys.

So, Good Little Witness Moms and Dads, while you're oh-so-lovingly rewiring your kids head so they'll be a Good Little Witness Child, you might as well go all the way and point out that Jehovah must be the God of Peace and Love, since he was ready and waiting to lay some Divine, blazing, hack and slash, widow and orphan making anger (on His own people, no less) in protection of ancient orphans.

That's sure to make them sleep easy at night, innit?

51

I have just left my parents home and the JW's about six months ago and have found it hard to get over.

by StephanieH in

i finally desided to leave the witnesses therefore my family and basicly everyone and everything i had ever known.

i was 19 about to be 20 and i had just finished my first semester at a community college.

i was shocked at the respons of my father and others about me attending college at first they were ok but behind my back they were pretty much betting on my failier.

corpusdei

StephanieH>> As an ex-witness myself, my heart goes out to you. I know how difficult it is. The social limits that the Witnesses place are designed with the intent of creating an insular, isolated community. The congregation is your family, more so than your blood relatives. The congregation is your support. The congregation loves you more than the parent or wife or child who is an unbeliever. The congregation has your best interests at heart, worldly friends will tempt you into sin and death. They justify it by stating that Jesus said he would come as a sword to divide the family, and then shift the blame by stating that the rift is caused by the actions of the unbeliever (Wt 1/15/75, p. 29).

The goal is to create a dependancy on the congregation. Once social ties outside of that are weakened or lost, it makes it significantly difficult to leave because there's nowhere to go and no-one to go to. That isolation and social dependancy is one of the primary tools used by fringe cults to indoctrinate and maintain followers, because it creates a circular, self-sustaining thought process - the outside viewpoint that the Witnesses are wrong is taken by the Witness and used as evidence that it is right, and any stife or attempts by friends and family to get the person to leave feeds back into the conviction to stay.

For me, finally understanding that, understanding what had been done to the wiring in my head, helped me start to finely unravel it. It's hard, really hard, I won't lie to you, and there are things that you might never be able to completely shake off (I'm 15+ years out and still get uncomfortable when getting birthday presents). And a lot of times people won't really be able to understand it, because they haven't been through that gauntlet. You'll find though, that most times their lack of understanding is not for want of trying. My concern is that, on many occasions, I've seen the shock of the transition cause many ex-witnesses to skid out of control. Of the ones I know, most have gone through cyclic periods of depression, and several have recurring or ongoing drug habits. The combination of sudden freedom mixed with the stunted social skills that can result from a Witness upbringing can be a recipe for trouble. Because of that, and even though I'm rarely a fan of professional mind-washers, I really do suggest that you consider spending some time with a professional counseler or therapist who has experience in religious cults. They will often be able to help you develop the understanding and tools to better cope with that transition and decompression when you're finally able to get away from the Witnesses. With all that in mind, though, big big hugs, you're out, you're free, and you're in good company. Welcome to the greener side of the fence!

48

True Friendship Only Found In the Organization?

by What Now? in

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often times, i read in the magazines that only among jehovahs people will you find true friendship.

corpusdei

From another post on a similar subject:

Social interaction in the WTBTS flows back into the Witness practice of creating an insular, isolated community. The congregation is your family, more so than your blood relatives. The congregation is your support. The congregation loves you more than the parent or wife or child who is an unbeliever. The congregation has your best interests at heart, worldly friends will tempt you into sin and death. They justify it by stating that Jesus said he would come as a sword to divide the family, and then shift the blame by stating that the rift is caused by the actions of the unbeliever (Wt 1/15/75, p. 29).

The goal (with varying degrees of success, obviously) is to create a dependancy on the congregation. Once social ties outside of that are weakened or lost, it makes it significantly difficult to leave because there's nowhere to go and no-one to go to. That isolation and social dependancy is one of the primary tools used by fringe cults to indoctrinate and maintain followers, because it creates a circular, self-sustaining thought process - the outside viewpoint that the Witnesses are wrong is taken by the Witness and used as evidence that it is right, and any stife or attempts by friends and family to get the person to leave feeds back into the conviction to stay.

85

Q for all Christians (not just JW) about the ransom.

by Anony Mous in

so this is the basic logical flaw in christianity i believe.

a brother identified it from the stage for me in a talk.

we all agree (as christians and jw's) that the ransom was necessary because adam lost his perfection and everlasting life.. this is a paraphrase from the talk:.

corpusdei

Aquinas was not only more philosophical, he was also seriously, painfully dull in volumes thick enough to beat someone to death with.

It appears that we do agree that there is an inherited condition which leads to a propensity to sin (be it physical depravity, metaphysical sin, or what other label you like). I don't state that it's a direct causative, but I do argue that it's a coersive force, and that deviation from the original, Adamic condition is not an effect of moral choice and sin, nor are the associated mortal pains and sufferings. If it were, then the offer of redemption and absolution would be magnanimous. Yes, there is significant pain in the world caused through moral sin, and I fully agree that the responsibility for that is on our own heads. But I cannot rationally agree with the offer of absolution to clear myself of the stain of a sin that I did not get to enjoy.

85

Q for all Christians (not just JW) about the ransom.

by Anony Mous in

so this is the basic logical flaw in christianity i believe.

a brother identified it from the stage for me in a talk.

we all agree (as christians and jw's) that the ransom was necessary because adam lost his perfection and everlasting life.. this is a paraphrase from the talk:.

corpusdei

godrulz>> I appreciate the criticism. I do see the point you're making, and I agree with the distinction between moral and metaphysical sin. The flaw in your argument is the same one that would invalidate mine - it's the question of the consequence of inherited, or metaphysical, sin. If that metaphysical sin carried no consequence, or if the consequence was justifiable, then I would wholeheartedly agree with you, and my view of God would be significantly different.

My disagreement hinges on two points - the point that we do not sin because we are born sinners, and that the consequence of metaphysical sin is justifiable.

The first question is whether we are sinners because we sin, or if we sin because we are sinners. I argue that the metaphysical sin that we are born with, at least according to Christian theology, creates a prediliction towards moral sin. Mankind is not born perfect, as Adam was, nor are we afforded the similar opportunity of choice between perfection and moral sin. The deck is stacked, as it were, and even the apostle Paul felt the conflict: "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for ability to wish is present with me, but ability to work out what is fine is not" - Rom 7:18

So if metaphysical sin does stack the deck and creates that tendancy towards moral sin, then my argument is doubally valid. Not only is this sin inherited, but by creating a situation whereby mankinds natural inclination is towards moral sin, God's offer for redemption through the ransom of Jesus sacrifice takes on a significantly different light.

Second is the question of whether the consequences of inherited sin is justifiable. Aging and death are the consequence of metaphysical sin, not moral sin, otherwise morality would have a direct measurable effect on lifespan and doctors would be able to proscribe Romans 6:23 instead of penicillin. This consequence, essentially a death sentance, is present in all mankind regardless of our moral choices. It's difficult to consider aging and death, with all its associated pain and suffering, to be a justifiable consequence of metaphysical sin.

Ultimately, your points for atonement issues being governmental vs. personal clarify instead the difficulty in justifying the need for the ransom of Jesus. My action would be no less reprehensible if I were to kill someone through a slow-acting poison than if I were to hit them with my car. More so, in fact, if I were to then turn around and attempt to gain thanks by offering the antidote.

While it may have been a few years since I've dusted off my Aquinas, I'm certainly not ignorent of the multiple theodicies developed over the years. Each of them, yours included, contains either logical weakness or some suspension of reason in deference to faith - two things that I cannot accept as a reasoning, intelligent, free-willed entity. About the only one that I give much creedence would be Anslem's Ontological argument, and even that makes me twitchy.

15

[2nd attempt] "We missed you SO much at the meeting...."

by Duncan in

jw
friends

how do some people *effortlessly* control others?.

and then there comes that first meeting they miss.. .

naked baby!

corpusdei

It flows back into the Witness practice of creating an insular, isolated community. The congregation is your family, more so than your blood relatives. The congregation is your support. The congregation loves you more than the parent or wife or child who is an unbeliever. The congregation has your best interests at heart, worldly friends will tempt you into sin and death. They justify it by stating that Jesus said he would come as a sword to divide the family, and then shift the blame by stating that the rift is caused by the actions of the unbeliever (Wt 1/15/75, p. 29).

The goal is to create a dependancy on the congregation. Once social ties outside of that are weakened or lost, it makes it significantly difficult to leave because there's nowhere to go and no-one to go to. That isolation and social dependancy is one of the primary tools used by fringe cults to indoctrinate and maintain followers, because it creates a circular, self-sustaining thought process - the outside viewpoint that the Witnesses are wrong is taken by the Witness and used as evidence that it is right, and any stife or attempts by friends and family to get the person to leave feeds back into the conviction to stay.

*shudders* Just ... evil. I'm still not sure how I got out.