Posts by corpusdei

14

Straddling the fence or leading a double life.

by garyneal in

jw
friends

a subject that i know a lot of you can relate to.

my wife admits to leading a double life in regards to her spiritual activities.

it comes with the territory, i suppose.

corpusdei

Was she raised in the Witnesses or did she join later in life?

I ask because, while the belief and control system that comes with the Witnesses can be difficult to shake in any case, a lot of the beliefs can be very ingrained and hard to move away from for people who were raised in that faith. I've been out for 10+ years, as an example, and I'm still uncomfortable attending birthday parties (or particularly celebrating my own). In my experience, because so many of the Witness practices go against social norms, that rationalization that you mention about the easter candy begins to develop almost as a defense or coping mechanism. It's a way for us to feel normal, almost, even if just tangentally.

Although I certainly don't have the total grasp of the situation that you would, there are a couple of things that I would suggest.

It does sound like she's on the fence, so she's certainly questioning things, and I would suggest gentle encouragement of that. Ask questions that would help lead her to see the world outside of the Witnesses. I say ask, because the Witness religion is set up so that outright criticism feeds back into evidence that the Witnesses are right, and pushing the issue can have the opposite effect that you're looking for.

The other thing is the sense of community. Again, looking back on my own experience, in some ways that fear was making a deeper fear of losing the community and support structure provided by the church. I didn't want to die and not be in Paradise on Earth(tm). So help her make or strengthen social ties outside of the Witnesses. Seeing that non-witnesses are not all the immoral, God-hating, threats to spiritual life and limb that the Witnesses teach will go a long way both in helping her find a path completely away as well as helping her start to de-wire the Witness programming. Ultimately, though, it will take time - especially if she was raised as a Witness. The mindset is so insidiously wrapped around every aspect of life that she may always be working against it on some level, no matter how far she distances herself from the church. So be patient and understanding, even if it's something that you don't understand.

I know I and many of the ex-JWs here on the board would be happy to talk with her, about some of the conflicts or questions she may be having, or even just about the experiences we've had in and outside of the Witnesses. Talking to someone who's seen both sides of the fence, who has seen that fishbowl inside and out, who's left and is still standing, can absolutely make a difference.

So good luck, and I wish both of you the best.

122

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei in

i'll be the first to admit that i haven't done the research on this one, and i can't remember the answer from my jw days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of judas and his betrayal of jesus.. considering that the betrayal of jesus by judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone.

it was going to happen, it was an absolute because divine prophecy is correct.

judas had to betray jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.. now, i've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks.

corpusdei

TheQuietOne>> Look into the various theodicies created over the years, which attempt to balance the existence of evil with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevelant deity. There's quite a few. The only ones that I've never found any logical holes in are

a) God is defined by his perfection, therefore all that is not God must by necessity be imperfect. If this were a perfect world, we would be a facet of God.

b) God as duality. This is my favorite, because it causes Christians to make faces and throw things at me. Essentially it's the idea that God is the ultimate personification of both benevelance and malignancy - God and the Devil are two sides of the same coin. I personally think it makes the most sense, it does explain everything, but the idea of a schizopherenic God does tend to be slightly unnerving.

cantleave>>

Unforgivable sin? Did Judas deny the GB?

You owe me a new keyboard, there's coke all over mine now.

charlie brown jr>>

They were delighted and agreed to give him money to pay his cable bill.

See, I would have held out for a hell of a lot more than 30 pieces of silver. I mean, you're about to be party to the murder of the Son of God, after all. This ain't just turning over the local liquer store.

122

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei in

i'll be the first to admit that i haven't done the research on this one, and i can't remember the answer from my jw days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of judas and his betrayal of jesus.. considering that the betrayal of jesus by judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone.

it was going to happen, it was an absolute because divine prophecy is correct.

judas had to betray jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.. now, i've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks.

corpusdei

godrulz>>

Hello again!

The Old Testament does not prophesy him by name at all. Like other verses about Jesus that seem out of context, the Spirit applied some verses to Judas by way of illustration/parallel to an OT situation, NOT predictive prophecy like most assume

The Old Testament also does not prophesy Jesus, or King David, or virtually any other scriptural persona by name as I recall. And the devil's in those details, because I'm quite certain that through the course of history there are dozens upon dozens of people and situations that can be pointed to in order to fulfill prophecy. Similar to my comment to AGuest, if it had not been Judas, then I would have been asking about the Great Betrayer, Judas' brother Bob.

So, the Judas thing was not predictive prophecy nor set in stone

This goes against the entire nature of what prophecy is. If Divine prophecy is not set in stone, is not predictive then it is fallible. Which goes against more scripture than I can think off.

A verse about Jesus in Egypt is applied illustratively because it parallels a historical situation, but it is not truly predictive prophecy

Then it is not prophecy, it is illustration.

God does not choose a devil, but he freely became one later on.

Again, the name of the devil doesn't matter. Ultimately, even if there had not been a prophetic fortelling of the betrayer of Judas, Jesus had to die as a part of the ransom sacrifice. So the question remains - by acting as the negative force in the fulfillment of that prophecy, did Judas (or Pilate, or Judas' brother Bob, whoever) commit a sin, being that they would seem to be part of Divinely manipulated events?

122

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei in

i'll be the first to admit that i haven't done the research on this one, and i can't remember the answer from my jw days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of judas and his betrayal of jesus.. considering that the betrayal of jesus by judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone.

it was going to happen, it was an absolute because divine prophecy is correct.

judas had to betray jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.. now, i've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks.

corpusdei

AGuest>>

The prophecy never said WHO it was that would fulfill the act, but simply that the act would occur.

Judas could, at ANY time, have resisted the Adversary. He didn't. Had he done so, the Adversary would have simply moved on to another disciple... and another... and another... until he found one who allowed himself to be used.

True, but someone would fulfill the prophecy. If not Judas, then I'd be asking about Judas' brother Bob.

First, again, betrayal by JUDAS was not prophesied, foretold, OR pre-decided. That is a LIE and a false teaching. It was simply fore-KNOWN, so that it could be FORETOLD

You also go on to point out that prophecy is similar to us being able to predict the location of an ant travelling along a path. I'm perfectly willing to accept that, however, this viewpoint means that God's prophecy is predictave, but fallible. We ants could change course, and by doing so invalidate prophecy. And if God's prophecy is fallible, that casts doubt onto all other supposed infallible aspects.

Second, to say that Judas' sin was "unforgivable" is premature... and judgmental. Judas repented (which is why he tried to hang himself); however, it is not ours to say that such is insufficient.

It is common Christian theology that the act of suicide, or self-murder, is a cardinal sin - even though Judas only made the attempt. I will concede to calling it unforgivable - although the heart of my question is more if Judas comitted a sin by function as the instrument of prophetic fulfillment, you are correct that the facet of whether that sin was unforgivible is ultimately up to the Divine.

I respect the obvious bredth of your understanding, thanks for the comments.

122

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei in

i'll be the first to admit that i haven't done the research on this one, and i can't remember the answer from my jw days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of judas and his betrayal of jesus.. considering that the betrayal of jesus by judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone.

it was going to happen, it was an absolute because divine prophecy is correct.

judas had to betray jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.. now, i've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks.

corpusdei

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done the research on this one, and I can't remember the answer from my JW days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of Judas and his betrayal of Jesus.

Considering that the betrayal of Jesus by Judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone. It was going to happen, it was an absolute because Divine prophecy is correct. Judas had to betray Jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.

Now, I've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks. If Judas doesn't betray Jesus, he invalidates Gods prophecy - if he does, he commits one of the most unforgivable sins in history.

Looking back on the account, a) In that moment, if Judas, through an excercise of free will, had chosen not to betray Jesus, would it have been necessary for Jehovah to have caused another close associate to commit the betrayal? Did free will come into play in that decision at all? and b) if the betrayal of Judas was prophesied, foretold, pre-decided, did he commit an unforgivable sin by being the instrument of that prophetic fulfilment?

47

Wachtower says 97% of teens masturbate....is it realistic that 100% Witness teens don't?

by Witness 007 in

"young people ask" book admits 97% of youths masturbate...to put it into perspective, it's like saying 97% of the worlds population own a phone or a t.v!!

so is it realistic to believe these witnesses going thru puberty and teenage years won't on penalty of death?.

i always thought, if nearly 100% of teens do it isn't it normal?.

corpusdei

sizemik>>

hell of a thing to have to do for a growing kid

All flippancy aside, it really is a rough thing. To be told by the people you look to for direction that this urge, one of the strongest drives in biology, is wrong and you're bringing shame on yourself and your Creator if you give into it - to be told that is to create a gap, a schism between your body and your mind. You can't trust your body at a time when most young people are not only going through the normal confusion of puberty, but are also dealing with the added social stigma and confusion of being a Witness.

47

Wachtower says 97% of teens masturbate....is it realistic that 100% Witness teens don't?

by Witness 007 in

"young people ask" book admits 97% of youths masturbate...to put it into perspective, it's like saying 97% of the worlds population own a phone or a t.v!!

so is it realistic to believe these witnesses going thru puberty and teenage years won't on penalty of death?.

i always thought, if nearly 100% of teens do it isn't it normal?.

corpusdei

K, I'm going to go out on a limb here. Are there any other Witnesses that discovered the joy of National Geographic like I did as a teen? Specifically the great issues with the tribal folks running around naked? There were boobs, and it wasn't obviously porn, so it kind of flew under the radar.

I can't have been the only one to discover that.

47

Wachtower says 97% of teens masturbate....is it realistic that 100% Witness teens don't?

by Witness 007 in

"young people ask" book admits 97% of youths masturbate...to put it into perspective, it's like saying 97% of the worlds population own a phone or a t.v!!

so is it realistic to believe these witnesses going thru puberty and teenage years won't on penalty of death?.

i always thought, if nearly 100% of teens do it isn't it normal?.

corpusdei

It wasn't much, but when you're growing up a Witness teen, you take what you can get

47

Wachtower says 97% of teens masturbate....is it realistic that 100% Witness teens don't?

by Witness 007 in

"young people ask" book admits 97% of youths masturbate...to put it into perspective, it's like saying 97% of the worlds population own a phone or a t.v!!

so is it realistic to believe these witnesses going thru puberty and teenage years won't on penalty of death?.

i always thought, if nearly 100% of teens do it isn't it normal?.

corpusdei

Hell, God knows I did. Frequently. Sometimes in the KH bathroom. And occasionally to the picture of the Whore of Babylon.

And don't look at me like that. It was a lot more entertaining than the talk, and besides, she was a whore so you knew she put out.

85

Q for all Christians (not just JW) about the ransom.

by Anony Mous in

so this is the basic logical flaw in christianity i believe.

a brother identified it from the stage for me in a talk.

we all agree (as christians and jw's) that the ransom was necessary because adam lost his perfection and everlasting life.. this is a paraphrase from the talk:.

corpusdei

We are condemned, not because we sin, but because we do not bend our knee to Him.

I do want to make a distinction here between abstaining from worship as simply the lack of worship, and abstaining from worship because of the sin of Pride, of thinking that we are better than God, which was the sin of Lucifer.