Posts by jws

33

Lawrence Hughes Class Action Website

by Simon in

jw
friends

http://www.watchtower-victims.org/.

pretty simple for the time being but no doubt it will change and develop over time.. i will do a banner ad to link to it and would encourage anyone who can publicise it to do so.

feel free to copy the banner when it is posted on here.

jws

Not sure how to feel about all of this.

Here in the US, I've always believed in the freedom of people to practice their religion, and also in a religion to practice as it wishes.

While I certainly agree that the criminal behavior needs to stop and policies need to change, doesn't a lot of this stuff fall under their right as a religion?

If they feel the need to have a policy of disfellowshipping, isn't that their right? Sure it affects people. Doesn't every religion have consequences? Are religions requiring tithing to be sued for financial burdens on members? Are pork sausage makers to sue the Jewish religion for loss of business?

Doesn't a religion have the right to interpret the Bible/Koran/Torah/<anything else> as they see fit and create a religion with practices that they interpret to be in sync with their own holy book? What right does the government have to say "you can't believe that, you must do it this way"? What if one of them is actually following what God wants? Are our governements supposed to overrule God? And who's to say whether they are or aren't doing it God's way? That's not for the governments or courts to decide. That's what religious freedom in this country is all about. Back in the middle ages, we had the governments enforcing a state religion. Hopefully we've gotten away from that.

What's to happen next? Sue every church because they all preach against sin in one form or another? Which, in turn may make somebody out there feel guilty over something they've done. Maybe they'll even commit suicide over it? This is not unique to JWs. Force them all to avoid the issue of sinning to their followers? And what about when the courts start to say religion cannot mention Jesus or Allah or Jehovah? Or that holy books are banned? Is that OK too?

I don't care if a government decides to take prayer out of schools or the phrase "one nation under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance. But when government or the courts start to try to change a religion's beliefs, I have a problem with that, no matter who the religion is.

At least in this country, religion is a choice and you're free to either practice it, switch to a new one, or give it up altogether. As much of the blame for any offense goes with people who follow the religion. There are JWs who talk to disfellowshipped friends and family and do not shun them. Everything is a personal choice. If the JW religion is so bad, every one of them has the choice of leaving.

As an ex-JW, I disagree with a lot of their teachings. I've come to see how manmade they are. I know how the whims and changing policies can deeply affect lives. My own mother may have lost her life due to their policies. But it's what they and their followers believe in. I believe they have that right to believe as they wish. And I believe they have the right to make up thier rules. Any member can always leave and I'm all in favor of helping get as many out as possible.

That said, when it comes to criminal behavior, I do agree that a church (any church) needs to do what's right. When a crime has been reported, they should take it to the authorities. And I also believe that a church should not have the right to engage in criminal behavior (ie, let's say the church decided it should kill all non-believers). But other than that, I'd give a religion the freedom to practice it's beliefs.

Enough with all the "I'm a victim" frivilous lawsuits.

-j.w.s.

Edited by - jws on 16 September 2002 18:55:37

13

Just a thought, would like input on it please

by Jesika in

jw
friends

i was cleaning the house and since our roommate works 3rd shift i have to do this quietly since he sleeps during the day.

i can't have the radio blasting or the tv on really loud so i clean in silence, which tends to make the mind wonder.. here was my thought, might be dumb but here goes------------.

the "great tribulation".

jws

I don't have it off hand, but I believe Revelation talks about a time of great tribulation.

I'm pretty sure other religions speak of a time of tribulation for believers. So I don't believe it's unique to JWs.

The JWs have always sort of had this paranoid "everybody's out to get us" sort of thing going. If somebody invites you to a birthday party, they're persecuting you or it's a test of faith, etc.

I'm sure, as you probably suspect though, that this concept can be dragged out for any purpose that serves to promote their cause. Much like the "love of the greater number will cool off" can be used to support any drop in attendance or apostasy or whatever.

-j.w.s.

18

ARE ANY WATCHTOWER BOOKS OF VALUE?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i have a very extensive library of wt.

publications.

i see how many of you got rid of the books and mags.

jws

The Watchtower Antiquarian portion of freeminds.org talks about old JW publications. It is a business and they are selling books. This link will guide you to other pages including other other online sellers. I believe they also sell a price guide.

http://www.freeminds.org/sales/tempsale.htm

This is another part of the site that lists a lot of books and why they have significance. He also has the price he's selling these books for, if you want to get an idea.

http://www.freeminds.org/sales/booksale.htm

By the way, I'm not spamming. I'm in no way affiliated with this site. I just thought that if you were trying to get an idea of what something's worth, go to a site selling those things.

There's also an on-line bookstore search that's connected to hundreds, if not thousands of bookstore inventories. If anybody's looking, some of this stuff can be found there too.

In fact, some used bookstores might even sell some of this stuff for you on commission, if/when you decide to sell. They may fetch a higher price for it.

-j.w.s.

16

Yet Another Deceptive Awake (10/22)

by metatron in

jw
friends

the 'awake' magazine never misses an opportunity to project the thought that.

the world is frightening - and hopeless.

the latest (oct.22,2002) is no excception.. on the final page inside, it quotes from a review of a book called "inviting disater -.

jws

Interesting about the artificial heart. That reminds me of my first time really thinking that the org has it wrong. This was in my early to mid-teens.

They were all into this "heart is the seed of emotions" scripture, believing the pump in your chest controlled your emotions, not your brain. I was thinking it was a bunch of BS. I argued with my parents who told me I was wrong and to keep my opinions to myself - that the society was right and I shouldn't question them. I can't remember now whether this was before or after the first artificial heart transplant.

Anyway, wasn't too long after that that the society changed their minds and started saying that the reference to the heart was figurative. It was "new light". Well, duh! The first mechanical heart was pumping away in a guy who still had emotions. Big revelation!

Guess God was unsure himself and had to wait to see about this mechanical heart for himself so he could share it with his official channel .

-j.w.s.

37

Non-JW wanting to Date a JW....some advice?

by Radium in

ok here is my situation, i met this girl that is a jw....she is not that heavily into her religion but we talked for a long time face to face and she is very hesitant on attempting to start a relationship.

so i have been researching for the past couple of days to undersatnd her religion and see if there is anything that i could use to dissuade her from saying no.

so last night we talked about the ifs, and buts, and such stuff like that.

jws

I think the above description of an apostate is a good one.

However, one does not need to be an out-of-the closet apostate. I, for instance, do not advertise it. My family knows, but I'm not on the offensive to them.

In JW terms, it is better to just drop out than to take an official stand against them. If she does take an official position against them, her friends and family that are still JWs will abandon her. This is the same as disfellowshipping (being kicked out for sinning). And by the way, if you do end up in a relationship, you want to be discreet when it comes to her JW family and friends. Don't let on if you end up sleeping with her. That's part of being a gentleman in the first place, but beware that word can spread through non-JW friends back to JWs also. And that can damage her and get her disfellowshipped.

When I say she needs to become "apostate" (and yes, that's a good thing), SHE needs to turn her back on the religion. IMHO, that's the only way for you two to have a relationship otherwise you risk her returning to it. She doesn't need to make that official to her family or the JWs though. She can just stop going to church. Blame it on "bad influence" or whatever, but that is safer for her.

-j.w.s.

37

Non-JW wanting to Date a JW....some advice?

by Radium in

ok here is my situation, i met this girl that is a jw....she is not that heavily into her religion but we talked for a long time face to face and she is very hesitant on attempting to start a relationship.

so i have been researching for the past couple of days to undersatnd her religion and see if there is anything that i could use to dissuade her from saying no.

so last night we talked about the ifs, and buts, and such stuff like that.

jws

....I liked that but I have a question....She is no longer a teenager either...she is 21 and will be 22 in Oct. She goes to clubs and drinks also....this was happening before I even met her....any idea of this kinda of behavior???

While neither of those things is technically wrong to the JWs, it would be considered bad behavior. JWs can drink, just not to excess. And placing themselves in an atmosphere such as a club is also a no-no, but mostly because of supposed bad influence. Until that bad influence actually induces her to commit a sin, they can't really do much but frown upon it.

From personal experience, I was leading a similar double-life. At about that same age (and living at home), I'd go out to bars with my friends. I'd get drunk sometimes. I'd go and meet and date women (who obviously weren't JW). I just kept quiet to the JWs (including family) about it all. In the back of my mind was the hope that someday I'll settle down with a nice JW girl. I remember once dumping a non-JW girl I had been dating because I had met quite unexpectedly (wasn't looking) a JW girl where we had a mutual attraction and began dating. (Luckily that fell through).

As long as she stays a JW, that thought may be nagging at her mind. That she should be dating a JW.

I wonder if her parents are aware of her going to clubs and drinking. If she's open about doing these things with her parents, she may be open about dating you too. Otherwise (as is probably happening now), you're probably sneaking around behind her parent's backs. That's not a good relationship. Hopefully you can be understanding, but lots of non-JW girls I dated took it the wrong way that I couldn't bring them home to mom and dad.

I'm probably generalizing. I mean no offense to anyone else reading and this is only my personal observations. But a girl who still lives at home and under such a strict rule is not a good person to date. The biggest reason being she's not her own person right now. She's not independent. And on top of that she's living a lie - a double life. She needs time on her own to strip away life under her parent's roof and rules and the religion's rules and deprogram herself. She needs to find out who she is - find out which of those double-lives she's going to stick with. And when she does, there's the risk that you and her may no longer be a good match. The real her might be somebody you don't like or the real her might not like you anymore. It's a risk you've got to take. If you do get together, eventually she'll become the real her - better that happens before the relationship.

I've seen so many of my JW friends (and others) get married at age 18 or 19. (And even 21 or 22 is young - especially if you're still at home). They're inexperienced. They've never been independent and had time to be themselves or deal with real responsibilities. They get married to gain some of that independence. Then as they grow into themselves, they discover they don't really like being trapped who they're with. That each of them is no longer the same person and they're no longer compatible.

I'd suggest the first thing she needs to do is get out on her own. Get an apartment with a girlfriend if it's too expensive to do alone. And I might also suggest putting a bit of distance between that apartment and her parents so they don't constantly drop in. Now she just needs time to grow - without a relationship. She needs freedom. She also has to deprogam herself from the JWs. This is going to be a rough time for her with a lot of emotions. She needs to find her way through it all and a relationship won't help her focus on that. If she goes through it with a boyfriend and you two break up, her emotions might drive her back to seek refuge in the JWs.

I know you want to be with her. But she's not really at the point right now where this is a good idea for either of you. If you can get her out on her own and deprogram her, then maybe. But that's going to be probably at least a year away. Can you be her friend until then and support her without adding the additional emotions of a relationship?

If you date and marry now, a few years down the road, she realizes she's jumped from one relationship with her parents to one with you and never had time to be independent. That's when troubles start in so many marriages.

Or, at any time during this, if she hasn't been deprogrammed, she may join back in. At which point you become the bad guy. She has to give up her Saturday mornings to go out door-knocking. She has to go to church on Sunday morning. She also has to go to 2 services during the week (usually Tuesday and Thursday nights). And, she is also supposed to do some prep for some of those. That's a lot of times she's leaving you during the week. And when you complain, you're persecuting her. If you suggest going out to dinner on your anniversary and that's a church night, you're trying to weaken her faith. Any attempt at a normal life and normal schedule is you trying to stumble her. So you're now being split up several times a week. Some marriage! Her answer is to join her. You don't want to. You know better. You decide enough is enough. You want a divorce. But that's against her religion. So now you have to cheat on her so she'll have grounds for the divorce (and even them might not agree to one). What a mess! Hope she never goes back. Deprogramming is the first and foremost thing. Don't just accept her rebellious behavior (to JWs) as proof of her seperating herself.

-j.w.s

37

Non-JW wanting to Date a JW....some advice?

by Radium in

ok here is my situation, i met this girl that is a jw....she is not that heavily into her religion but we talked for a long time face to face and she is very hesitant on attempting to start a relationship.

so i have been researching for the past couple of days to undersatnd her religion and see if there is anything that i could use to dissuade her from saying no.

so last night we talked about the ifs, and buts, and such stuff like that.

jws

Let the buyer beware!!!

First off, if her parents are good-standing JWs, they will not approve of you at all, no matter how nice you are. It doesn't matter. You are not a JW, and like everyone else who is not a JW, they believe you are evil and will be destroyed at Armageddon. And you are a threat to their daughter because you could drag her away from the religion, where she too will be destroyed.

You will either have to become a good-standing JW and prove yourself, or she will have to rebel against her parents and date you anyway, possibly leaving the JWs.

I knew a lot of JWs who had their "rebelious" period. Some started dating those outside the religion and where sort of the "bad kids", but stayed JWs. Some left the religion.

And you certainly have that hope that she'll leave. Let's say things go good and you end up in a long-term relationship and/or marriage. Great, but her family is still in. They will not stop working on her to come back.

I've seen it plenty of times. So many people leave the organization, but not on principle, but based on what seems fun at the time. Maybe they were smoking. Maybe it was for sex. Maybe for dating those outside the religion. Maybe they just didn't like the rules and strictness. The point is, their mind never really abandons the beliefs. Often times guilt resides in their minds. They feel they are sinning and need to return, but just can't do it right now. While they are young and having fun, the fun can erase a lot of guilt. But a few years later, they settle down and maybe start thinking about returning. And her family will be working on that too. Down the road, she could repent and rejoin and now you're the unbelieving mate. The one who persecutes her. The one she is now devoted to trying to save.

And something else concerns me. You said she wants to go to college and get piercings. Sounds like she wants to use you to get away from her parents.

Another interesting behavior trait I've seen among many JWs is to get married as soon as they are able. They are not allowed to date except with marriage in mind. And certainly not allowed to have sex. This is difficult when you're 18 and your hormones are raging. I believe many latch onto the first person they start a semi-serious relationship with and marry them - without getting to know them. This satisfies the urges and it also provides them something else. A chance to escape mom and dad. A lot of JWs don't like the strictness and long to be out on their own and see marriage as a legitimate way to gain this freedom or independence. Especially for a JW girl, this sometimes seems to be the way out. They are trained to be in subjection and don't like being in subjection to their parents and feel a mate will give them more freedom.

Make sure that if she does decide to date you two things are settled. First, make sure she learns that the JWs are not a true religion. She needs to become what they term "apostate". If she doesn't know the truth about JWs, she is in danger of returning when she feels guilty enough. And secondly, make sure she is not using you as a vehicle to rebel a little. You'll take her away and let her do all the things her parents wont. That's not the basis for a relationship.

-jws

Edited by - jws on 11 September 2002 21:19:32

7

My demon posessed PC experience

by jws in

been reading some of the demon stories posted from time to time on this forum.

i for one am skeptical of them all because many of people i knew who reported such experiences seemed to be either mentally or emotionally unstable.

i've personally never had any such experiences despite my ac/dc and led zeppelin collection - and never wanted to.

jws

Been reading some of the demon stories posted from time to time on this forum. I for one am skeptical of them all because many of people I knew who reported such experiences seemed to be either mentally or emotionally unstable. I've personally never had any such experiences despite my AC/DC and Led Zeppelin collection - and never wanted to. But that all changed Sunday afternoon....

I was home alone, trying to dial in to work and get some things done, but my PC was having a problem connecting, so I switched to using my wife's PC with the broadband connection.

I went out to run an errand and just after I got back, I got a phone call. While I'm on the phone, I look over to see the Windows boot-up screen on my PC. I'm across the room from the PC and I did not remember turning it on. I would have no reason to do so because I didn't plan on using it. Nevertheless, here it was booting up. It was more than a little spooky. I had no recollection of turning it on, but finally chalked it up to "I might have". Maybe the phone was ringing and I did turn it on without thinking.

So I shut it down again and go to work on my wife's PC in the other room. After some time, my wife calls. I go in to answer it in the room with my PC. As I'm talking to her, my PC is booting back up. Now I know it's evil spirits. This time I was paying attention and I KNOW I did not touch the PC. I came into this room and headed straight to the phone. Some demonic force wanted that PC on. Maybe it was that pop-up window for an adult site that came up a couple weeks ago. Maybe "it" wanted me to go to back there.

Then I put it all together. I have an external modem, which stays on unless I shut it off and lately have gotten lazy about shutting it off. What's more, newer motherboards, when plugged in, aren't really off. It's more like a state of hibernation.

What happened is the modem is still plugged into the phone line and still on, although the PC is "off". The ringing of the phone triggered the modem to send a signal to the PC telling it the phone was ringing. I have my motherboard configured to wake-up on signals from the serial port (I didn't know it would wake it up from "shutdown" mode, but now I do). So, if the PC is off, a ringing telephone will turn it back on.

The reason I never noticed this before is that the phone jack is on the other side of the room, so my PC is almost never plugged into the phone unless I'm dialing out. As soon as I'm done, I disconnect it to avoid tripping over it. And I often shut off the modem too.

My evil demon was actually a little US Robotics modem. Guess I'm back to being a skeptic again.

-jws

25

Why the Memorial?

by professor in

jw
friends

why is it that everyone and his cousin shows up for the memorial?

what is it about this meeting that makes people come out of the woodwork?

is it like going to church on easter and christmas or something?

jws

I go from time to time because my father asks me to. He doesn't bother me too much about the JW stuff, so it's not too much to ask. And although I live in another city and he has no way of knowing whether I went, I feel obligated to keep my commitment to him. It gives him hope for me. I'll never go back (other than this once-a-year thing) but for him, his mind is a little more at ease.

And to tell the truth, it's semi-enjoyable in a nostalgic sort of way. To hear those lame songs again, to see everybody sit and stand and rip open their bibles all in sync according to the customs. Hey, it's good entertainment. This is, for better or worse, was what I grew up with. It's a part of my youth. It's like spending time in my first grade classroom again. You know so much more now, but this is where you once were. And nobody knows what I once was here either, so I don't get hassled.

I find the talks so disgusting. These people really don't read what was written in the Bible. Or they twist it into something completely different to fit their doctrine. I can't stand that part of it. And I've been tempted to take the wine/bread from time to time. But, it's their party, I can play by their rules.

Oh well, it's only once a year and only if my dad remembers to tell me about it.

-jws

22

WTS Changes Media Info on DF'ing

by FreePeace in

jw
friends

i don't know if this has already been posted (as i don't visit as much anymore).

the wts has changed the info in the faq section of their media site,

http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm

jws

I was worried about the KM material they were covering this month. I am a person who has simply drifted off without making it official with a statement. Though my father is aware that I am opposed.

If my relatives choose to start treating me different after the KM material, I can point them to this official Watchtower website to prove that I should not be shunned. Hey, might even start them asking questions. Why does the KM say this, but their website say something that seems different?

-jws