Posts by ABibleStudent

14

In search of a better word...

by okage in

my jw brother-in-law is 32. he admitted to me the other day he's been inactive since 1989 (pretty much right after baptism).

he stopped going to the meetings in 2003, and acknowledges he is a fader.. his reason for not attending the meetings was the lack of passion for jehovah exhibited by the elders and the brothers and sisters.

he attended four different congregations in the fort worth/haltom city area of texas.

ABibleStudent

Hi okage, Have you read Steve Hassan's books "Combatting Cult Mind Control" or "Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for themselves"? I hope that your BIL gets over his cult induced phobias. I have an aquintance who doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God, but does believe that the WTBTS knows the "Truth" better than any other religion.

Other ideas to help your BIL would be to invite him to visit JWN so that he can learn how to fade without being shunned? I wrote a thread about sending anonymous emails to JWs in http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/211893/1/Youe28099ve-Got-Mail-TM. Or, could you secretly send your BIL a copy of "Crisis of Conscience" by Raymond Franz.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

30

To Attend or Not Attend JW Relative Funeral - Experiences You've Had ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

i was moved to put this thread out after talking to a board member here who was treated very disrespectfully from her jw family after her own husband died.

my question isn't trying to pigeonhole anybody or i'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer - the question is designed to just openly discuss the negatives and positives of going to a jw funeral or not, and the implications or ramifications for doing so or not.. i believe it's definitely a personal decision based on different circumstances for each individual.

for example : let's say a person is an inactive jw and they were sexually abused or treated in other inhumane ways by still active jw relatives .

ABibleStudent

flipper - Yet consider the other option : Let's say I attend a JW relatives funeral , then we are probably approached a hundred times being asked " when are you coming back to meetings ? " Or - " Don't you want to see your JW parents in the paradise ? " Or even still many people may shun us anyway due to not attending meetings over 8 years. But if you're like me I say " who cares how they treat me, I'm there for my deceased parents".

Hi flipper, I was wondering what would happen if a person responds to those inquiring JWs with their own questions, such as "Why should I come back to the meetings? Will I learn how to love other people unconditionally like Jesus Christ taught?" or "I miss my parents dearly. Where in the Bible does it say that I must be a JW to see my parents again?" To me any time is a good time to plant seeds of doubts in a JW.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

58

New US Government Petition re: Cults and Tax Exemptions

by mind blown in

this is on the official us government site.. note: someone was under the impression this was unconstitutional and it wouldn't pass, however, steven unthank replyed that tax exempt status (re: usc title 26 501 tax exemptions requirements) is not a constitutional right and can indeed be regulated by the us government through the irs.

freedom of religion does no mean freedom from tax.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/protect-americans-dangerous-cults-modify-usc-title-26--501-tax-exemptions-requirements/zhpbvhfx.

ABibleStudent

Rebel8 - You will find little argument from folks here that the wts does not respect human rights and dignity.
However, you are asking the IRS to force all nonprofits to "promote freedom of religion and freedom of speech".
Specifically what are you asking the IRS to force the nonprofits to do?

@ mind blown, thanks for signing the petition.

Hi Rebel 8, In the simplist of terms "promote freedom of religion and freedom of speech" means that organizations and their leaders shall not promote or use coercion to coerce their members to coerce other members. When organizations and their leaders write articles or give speeches in public forums that members should and/or must shun or mark other members they are promoting coercion. On the other hand if leaders wish to express their views to 15 or less friends and family socially without using intimidation or their organizational position to influence their friends or family, I would not consider that as a coercive act.

If you read Steve Hassan's book "Combatting Cult Mind Control", Steve Hassan states that dangerous cults can be religious and non-religious. I wrote the petition to include all organizations, because I wanted to reduce the possibiliity of Constitutional challenges on the grounds that religious groups were being unfairly discriminated against.

What I wrote is a petition and not a bill (nor a law) therefore it does not have all the legal details that a bill should have. Also, the White House website limited the petition to 800 characters (I believe), so I had to write the petition with as few details as possible but with enough to get the point across.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

58

New US Government Petition re: Cults and Tax Exemptions

by mind blown in

this is on the official us government site.. note: someone was under the impression this was unconstitutional and it wouldn't pass, however, steven unthank replyed that tax exempt status (re: usc title 26 501 tax exemptions requirements) is not a constitutional right and can indeed be regulated by the us government through the irs.

freedom of religion does no mean freedom from tax.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/protect-americans-dangerous-cults-modify-usc-title-26--501-tax-exemptions-requirements/zhpbvhfx.

ABibleStudent

Hi JeffT, Are you referring to CITIZENS UNITED v . FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION ? If you are referring to that Supreme Court decision than I will be glad to read it more carefully, and I would look forward to writing comments about your opinions when you start a new thread. I will keep my comments short, since I do not want to hijack this thread. BTW have you read the petition at http://wh.gov/Er4 ?

My cursory read of the aforementioned Supreme Court case makes me feel that you are combining 1st Amendment protection of Freedom of Speech with all the other clauses in the 1st Amenndment, including the Free Excercise clause about religion. Traditionally the Supreme Court narrowly construes the Constitution when it decides cases, so I do not feel that any law resulting from the petition that I wrote would violate any 1st Amendment rights. If 25,000 people did sign this petition, I would be the first person to recommend that any bill should be reviewed by the ACLU, Americans United, Citizens United, and other Constitutional legal experts to confirm that the bill would not violate the Constitution.

If you read Supreme Court decisions carefully, you will learn that Freedom of Speech and Religious rights can be limited by government. I suggest that you read REYNOLDS v. U.S., 98 U.S. 145 (1878) where a Mormon was not permitted to practice polygamy but was permitted to believe in polygamy. Likewise people are limited in talking about committing crimes or inciting armed revolution against the government.

USC Title 26 § 501 applies to only non-profit organizations that wish to qualify for tax exempt status. This petition would only add requirements for qualifying for tax exempt status. § 501 already prohibits some non-profit organizations from lobbying activities to maintain their tax exempt status which in some ways limits freedom of speech of those organizations. I would argue that this petition allows individuals to believe in shunning people, but would not permit organizations and their leaders teaching their members to use coercion to coerce their members to shun family and friends.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

58

New US Government Petition re: Cults and Tax Exemptions

by mind blown in

this is on the official us government site.. note: someone was under the impression this was unconstitutional and it wouldn't pass, however, steven unthank replyed that tax exempt status (re: usc title 26 501 tax exemptions requirements) is not a constitutional right and can indeed be regulated by the us government through the irs.

freedom of religion does no mean freedom from tax.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/protect-americans-dangerous-cults-modify-usc-title-26--501-tax-exemptions-requirements/zhpbvhfx.

ABibleStudent

JeffT- Actually under US Constitutional law, as interpreted by the current US Supreme Court, they do.
I think I need to start a thread on how I feel about this. It may turn into another essay before I'm done.

Hi JeffT, I look forward to you writing a thread about your feelings that the U.S. Consitution protects the rights of freedom of religion and speech for corporations the same as for individuals. Please include links to U.S. Supreme Court Cases and excerpts in your thread to support your opinion. I would also recommend that you read the following U.S. Supreme Court decisions from www.law.cornell.edu , which I would use to substantiate my opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects an individuals' rights of religion and speech from government infringement and not a corporation's rights:

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

58

New US Government Petition re: Cults and Tax Exemptions

by mind blown in

this is on the official us government site.. note: someone was under the impression this was unconstitutional and it wouldn't pass, however, steven unthank replyed that tax exempt status (re: usc title 26 501 tax exemptions requirements) is not a constitutional right and can indeed be regulated by the us government through the irs.

freedom of religion does no mean freedom from tax.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/protect-americans-dangerous-cults-modify-usc-title-26--501-tax-exemptions-requirements/zhpbvhfx.

ABibleStudent

Thank you , mind blown for writing this thread. BTW if the aforementioned link does not work in IE you can also use this link: http://wh.gov/Er4. I tried using https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/protect-americans-dangerous-cults-modify-usc-title-26-%C2%A7-501-tax-exemptions-requirements/ZHpbvHfx in IE and it would not work until I replaced https://wwws with http://www without the "s"'s.

If people would like to learn a little more about the US Tax Code and IRS publications, you can read the letter to the Secretary of the Treasury in this thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/politics/225023/1/URGENT-Please-Sign-White-House-Petition-to-Protect-Americans-from-Dangerous-Cults-Modify-USC-Title-26-c2a7-501-Tax-Exemption-Requirements.

Congress is empowered to pass laws that do not infringe on individuals' rights of freedom of religion and speech, but that does not mean that Congress cannot prevent individuals from killing, slandering, or deceiving other people.

The last time I checked organizations are not people, and therefore do not have those same rights. I created this White House petition so that all dangerous cults would not receive tax exemptions and not just the religious ones.

Steven Unthank may not be an expert on the US Tax Code, but he was very kind to post the link on his Facebook pages when I asked him to. Steven Unthank (and everyone else) is not perfect. He just cares about and loves other people, and is willing to make sacrifises for them.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

11

My rambling story

by MsGrowingGirl20 in

i am 18...my mother has been studying the bible with jw's for over 20 years now.

she has never been baptised for various reasons.she wasn't married at the time to my abusive and drunkard father...when she started studying she got married to him--then she left him 4 years after.since then almost everywhere we moved mommy was approached by the jw's and she regularly had discussions with them .. when we bought our current home and the jw's appproached us 3 years ago,mommy was working day and night and so she told them to study with me.the next sunday we started going to meetings...all the meetings...i became a publisher in 4 months and was baptised 8 months after...i was told by everyone that i was progressing well...because of my mom's hectic work schedule ( single mother 4) we never had a close relationship so i immediately became really close to my study conductor...i was taught that religion and the people at the kh had to take precedence over any family members especially those who were a part of the world..from then on i never went to any family gatherings,concerts and i began to 'look down' on my mother.after all her heart condition wasn't right--why wasn't she baptised?

our relationship plunged---i even told her that i wanted to leave this house...she knew that i felt closer to my study conductor and so she tried to start back her study and get baptised....again she was dating someone and contemplating marriage with him but my study conductor kept on drilling into her head 'marry only in the lord'.

ABibleStudent

Hi MsGrowingGirl20 and thanks for writing your story. It sounds like you also need to start living again. Forgive yourself for falling for the WTBTS mind control techniques. I would suggest reconnecting with you family and saying hi to your friend. I look forward to reading your future posts.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

32

How to Help Someone Leave - New Article

by jwfacts in

there have been a few threads asking how to help someone leave, and i get asked that regularly by email.

i have posted a new article at http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/helping-someone-leave.php.

please feel free to offer any suggestions or point out any errors.

ABibleStudent

Good article jwfacts! It covers most of the basic WTBTS's thought blockers. Do you have additional thoughts about ways to reach a JW's authentic persona that are not covered by Steven Hassan in his book? Before planting seeds of doubts in JWs, I feel it is best to get JWs to go on fun outings where they would have fun and meet non-JWs. While a JWs' authentic persona is having fun, would it be a good time to ask JWs an emotional question that would help open their minds, like "Why does it seem that you can never do enough good in the eyes of the elders (or a specific elder/JW)?", and then let the JW talk.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

15