Posts by rawe

53

For Those who believe the Bible is truly the word of God

by sosoconfused in

what exactly is the reason?.

i am not an athiest or agnostic... i definately believe in god.

however i would honestly like to hear others explain to me why they believe the bible is truly the word of god.. .

rawe

Hi Everyone,

The Bible is a pretty special collection of ancient writings. The silver scrolls of Ketef Hinnom give evidence that at least some of the words found in the Bible date to 600 BCE. No other collection of ancient writings is as widely translated and read in the modern world. On this score, if any book would qualify as the word of God, it would be the Bible. Alas, the original authors, redactors and curators were all men living at a time of limited knowledge and it shows. Their motivations, often self-centered and limited, show as well. Parts of the Levitical law are positively barbaric, such as commanding that men found engaged in a homosexual act should be stoned to death (Lev 20:13).

The creation account of Adam and Eve is presented as real history, with enough date information to place the event around 4000 BCE (4026 by JW reckoning). Likewise the global flood of Noah is presented as a real event around 2300 BCE (2370 by JW reckoning).

Many lines of evidence speak against such history, but probably the two strongest is mitochondrial DNA and layers of ice at the north and south poles. Mitochondrial DNA is passed from mother to child unchanged. The father has no way to influence the sequence of mtDNA in a child. So other than the occasional mutation we should all hold near exact copies of mtDNA from Eve and one of the four women who survived the flood. The amount of change in mtDNA indicates the real Eve lived about 100,000 years ago. Yearly layers of snow and ice allow researches at the poles to determine much about the ancient climate. Even more basic is to simply know that the polar ice caps existed far longer than the flood account would allow, considering that ice floats in water. Even if you could come up with some clever way to keep the polar ice caps at the bottom of Noah's ocean or rapidly create them after the flood waters dispersed, it is hard to imagine why none of this would show up in the layers.

Jesus and authors of the NT accepted these OT accounts as real history. At Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus says basically that -- none of the Law and Prophes would pass away without being fulfilled. At Matthew 24:37-39 Jesus compares 'presence of the Son of man' to the 'days of Noah'. At Christian weddings we often hear the words 'what God has yoked together let no man put apart'. This is from Mark 10:9, however at verse 6 Jesus directly references the creation account in Genesis to make his point.

Finally, I think one of the most relevant things about the NT and our association with Jehovah's Witnesses is the focus on end-of-days. With 2014 just a few months away we're remind of the focus on 1914 as the start of a generation that would not pass away (of course the Bible Students of Russell's day, saw 1914 as the end of a generation). Having left the faith we may now smile at the urgent-yet-not-specific wording used by Witnesses such as 'soon' and 'about to'. Yet, let's no fool ourselves, this is certainly how NT Bible writers felt about their day...

"Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself" - Hebrews 9:26

and this famous one too...

"not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as ? YOU ? behold the day drawing near." - Hebrews 10:25

It is really self-indulgent arrogance on behalf of religious leaders to continously discard the ancient context and reinterpret the "day" to be "current." This has been going on now for nearly 2000 years and will likely continue for the next 2000. In reality, there was no "conclusion of the systems of things" in the way Christians would have thought when Hebrews 9:26 was written. Behold as they might, the "day" was not "drawing near." But one thing is certain, all this focus on a fantasy future can rob us of the precious few years we do have!

Cheers,

-Randy

43

The apparent contradiction of John 3:13

by EdenOne in

the wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".

notice a difference to the king james bible:.

john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.

rawe

Hi Eden,

I should have mentioned that I understood your suggested translation was really a paraphrase, intended to make the meaning more clear. I.e., use of "home" is merely a minor point. Nonetheless it shows the challenge of both getting a correct word-for-word translation as well as translate the actual meaning.

As Witnesses we were taught Jesus comments at Luke 20:37, 38 represent a guarantee of a future resurection, rather than a literal truth these men had been ressurected to heaven. This view draws on the "to Him" at the end of the verse.

The account of the resurection of Lazarus might hold they key to understanding the Jewish view of the day, as well as any possible adjustments made by Christians.

Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. [ d ] Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” - John 11:24-27 ESV

So lets say Martha reflects the nominal Jewish view, namely that escape from death was in a future resurection on the "last day." Christians would be forced to adjust this view at least for the hero of Christianity -- Jesus. Otherwise the object of their worship would be dead, even if in some future era he is resurrected. The next statement of Jesus "though he die, yet shall he live" doesn't reveal a time context other than one event (death) follows the other (live). But... does "who lives" followed by "shall never die" adjust things? I think it does. It tends to reflect the idea of an instant resurection in the Christian era for those that believe in Jesus.

This latter view of course contrast with the Witness view that instant resurrection is limited in scope and pushed to a future era "last days" (plural).

Alas, in real life, what we experience with death is loss. Religious ideas about escaping death, to me, reflect our evolutionary drive to survive.

Cheers,

-Randy

43

The apparent contradiction of John 3:13

by EdenOne in

the wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".

notice a difference to the king james bible:.

john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.

rawe

Hi EdenOne,

Interesting observation.

Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man - John 3:13 NWT

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven - John 3:13 NKJV. Includes a footnote on regarding who is in heaven.

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. - John 3:13 NASB

and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven. - John 3:13 YLT

No man in existence has gone up to heaven, except the Son of man who has come down, whose home is heaven - Your suggested translation.

AND(kai) NOT-YET-ONE(oudeis) HAS-UP-STEPPED(anabebEken) INTO(eis) THE(ton) heaven(ouranon) IF(ei) NO(mE) THE(ho) OUT(ek) OF-THE(tou) heaven(ouranou) DOWN-STEPPing(katabas) THE(ho) SON(huios) OF-THE(tou) human(anthrOpou) THE-One(ho) BEING(On) IN(en) THE(tO) heaven(ouranO) - http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh3.pdf

One of the problems with your suggested translation is the verse does not contain the Greek word for "home". John 14:23 has the word "home", as per scripture4all.org it is the word "monEn" which is translated as "REMAIN", but also as "abode."

Certainly, it is easy to see why NWT would prefer to have the "who is in the heaven" reference removed from the verse, since as you point out it could be used to support a divine nature of Jesus being both on earth and in heaven at the same time. If one reads the verse as if Jesus is speaking each word to Nicodemus, then this "in the heaven" could be problematic. However, if one simply suggested the "in the heaven" is an after-thought added by the author of John it could be addressed in that way. Especially considering John was written long after death of Jesus.

Does this verse support the idea that Jesus is saying no person on earth had gone to heaven, as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses? Maybe, but I don't think the verse absolutely requires that. 2 Kings 2:11 contains the account of Elijah who it is said ascended in a windstorm to the heavens. There is of course many folks who have addressed the John 3:13 contradiction of 2 Kings 2:11. Personally I think the least expensive way is simple to say the author of John wasn't thinking about the Elijah account at the time. In fact we know what the author of John was reflecting on, because it is in the very next verse...

And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life. - John 3:14, 15 (see also Numbers 21:9).

So... the emphasis is not just where Jesus was (heaven) and was going (also heaven), but on the katabas and anabebEken (descending and ascending). That is, the ascending of Jesus was the key thing for Christians to look to, like the Israelites that looked up to the copper serpent. My view is the ressurection of Jesus was both a difficult doctrine for Christians to accept yet at the same time a primary to the faith (1 Cor 15:12-14). The next verse of John is one most often cited by Christians, namely John 3:16. In contrast the most often cited scripture in Watchtower publications is Matthew 24:45 ;-)

Cheers,

-Randy

18

How can one understand unusual personal experiences such as when going from door-to-door?

by Fernando in

given that i know how corrupt, dishonest and evil the watchtower is, i have wondered how to understand a personal experience i had many years ago - long before walking out mid-2009.. after an unusual series of many "co-incidences" on a particular sunday, my friend and i ended up at the door of someone who had been praying to god for someone to be sent to him, and who was expecting us.. i am still convinced it was by divine intervention, but cannot understand why a prayer is answered by sending representatives of an apostate organisation.. also when taking up residence in a foreign country, under very difficult circumstances, i twice ended up "inadvertently" moving in to homes just around the corner from the kh.

on one occasion it was about a 15 metre walk from my front door right into my seat in the kh!.

have you had similar experiences?.

rawe

Hi Fernando,

"After an unusual series of many "co-incidences" on a particular Sunday, my friend and I ended up at the door of someone who had been praying to God for someone to be sent to him, and who was expecting us." The first obvious thing is you and your friend were at the house of a random stranger was because you were at the time one of Jehovah's Witnesses and going to door-to-door is a feature of that faith. The likely reason the person was praying is most people on earth are religious and believe prayer can be heard and acted upon by a superbeing most people call God (or Christ, Alla, Shiva, Mother Mary, etc.) Another part of the puzzle is how these two events got connected. Since both are rooted in religious feelings it makes sense a person of faith motivated to preach door-to-door, would be a good audience for the person saying the prayer. The seemingly profound nature of this event would help insure it gets remembered and repeated.

"I am still convinced it was by divine intervention, but cannot understand why a prayer is answered by sending representatives of an apostate organisation."

This strikes me as a possible, even subconsious thought, you may have that Jehovah's Witnesses in some way are connected to a divine work. Even when we can logically process aspects of the faith and label them corrupt, dishonest and evil, there may still be a lingering warmth for some aspects of the faith. Indeed, not everything about the faith was awful, right? Thus part of leaving the faith is trying to arrive at a rational view that encompasses the lying and dishonesty with true acts of human kindness and honest faith towards God we may have also witnessed.

"Also when taking up residence in a foreign country, under very difficult circumstances, I twice ended up "inadvertently" moving in to homes just around the corner from the KH. On one occasion it was about a 15 metre walk from my front door right into my seat in the KH!"

If you moved to a small area, it may be that most houses you could have moved to would be close to the Kingdom Hall. But there may have also been more subtle environmental aspects we might not be consciously aware of. For example, if you were a Witness at the time of this move, it would be natural to ask fellow Witnesses about a possible place to move. If the local Witness you talked to knew of two places one close and another further away, the local Witness might direct you to the closer one. Kingdom Halls also tend to reflect the economic status of nearby Witnesses. Hence as a general rule, Kingdom Halls are more often than not nearby homes where Witnesses would live.

"Have you had similar experiences? How would you interpret these or similar events?"

Actually the opposite. For several years, even going back to the events surrounding my father's death in 1991 I have been trying to keep track of feelings and events that wind up in negative hits. Conversely looking for environmental clues I did not pick up on, but probably should have. So... after I started this I've discovered that when the phone rings, probably about once or twice every two or three months I will have a feeling of dread come over me. Usually assuming my mother in her 80s may have died or have been hospitalized. Of course real events never align, but I tried to keep track of these false hits.

When my father moved to Falkland BC, we stopped in Kamloops and walked a bit in the mall. He was soon out of breath and had to sit down. When he helped me unload, likewise he was soon winded and had to lie down. Two big clues he was having heart issues -- but I totally missed it. Most freaky of all is the day he died, the environment was ripe with clues and I missed them all. Not only had he called me the night before to directly tell me, the doctor wanted to keep him in the hospital because of heart concerns, but when he died the next day, my wife called me at work, and told me that she has some important news but would wait until I got home. She didn't want me driving right after being told of my father's death. Again... nothing, I had no clue and was completely surprised by the news.

In regards to my father, one of the inputs was his constant references to his death. "If I make it till spring..." was one of his refrains. Since he was 49 when I was born and always in poor health, I believe my mind was primed to be dimissive of the latest health issue he was reporting.

In the end we're faced with a stark choice in regards to a interactive superbeing who is undetectable and acts in random ways. If such a being exists, then we can know nothing, not even in principal. What we know we do know, because of our ability to measure and trust that a future measurement will yield the same results for the same dataset. When we live by the principal of "I believe what I can measure" to an extent we must then accept a fair bit of not knowing -- because many things can be hard to measure. This includes an accounting of all the inputs that resulted in your two experiences.

Cheers,

-Randy

27

Believers and Non-Believers - What does this scripture mean?

by cantleave in

genesis 30:37-39english standard version (esv).

37 then jacob took fresh sticks of poplar and almond and plane trees, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the sticks.

38 he set the sticks that he had peeled in front of the flocks in the troughs, that is, the watering places, where the flocks came to drink.

rawe

Hi Cantleave,

The NWT reads much like the ESV...

Then Jacob took for his use staffs still moist of the storax tree and of the almond tree and of the plane tree and peeled in them white peeled spots by laying bare white places which were upon the staffs. 38 Finally the staffs that he had peeled he placed in front of the flock, in the gutters, in the water drinking troughs, where the flocks would come to drink, that they might get into a heat before them when they came to drink.

39 Consequently the flocks would get in heat before the staffs, and the flocks would produce striped, speckled and color-patched ones. - Genesis 30:37-39

I fall into the non-believer category. Hmm... what does this verse mean? Good question!

The writer does want to seem to draw a connection between the still-most-staffs and the flocks getting into heat. I know of no reason why such staffs would have such an effect, but it should be noted that sexual reproduction is a complicated process. Many aspects of it are still not understood. I see two larger stories here, one is the theme of justice, wherein the wronged party (Jacob) is able to use a clever strategy to get the advantage over Laban. Secondly, the Bible typically contains a favorable view of shepherds. The ability to care for a flock and select good breeding stock is not surprisingly assigned to Biblical heros like Jacob. OT authors it seems were either shepherds or closely connected to them.

Some have even suggested one of the reasons why pork is "unclean" in the Bible is rooted in how sheep herders would have viewed swine herders. And such is connected to resources such as land and water.

Cheers,

-Randy

3

New home for: Chandler Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses

by rawe in

jw
friends

i am the organizer of the chandler az, ex-jehovah's witnesses support group.

i am moving the group from meetup.com to groupspaces.com.

groupspaces.com provides a free service for groups like ours with fewer than 50 members.

rawe

Hi Finally Awake,

"wish i lived near enough to visit!"

There are several ex-jw groups on meetup.com, some might be closer. Also, if you don't mind doing a bit of organizing you can start a group on meetup.com ($12 per month) or groupspaces.com (no cost). Being an organizer isn't that much work -- really just picking a place and time to meet and being prepared to welcome new ones.

The two Ex-JW groups in our area have ~70 online members for the West group and ~25 for the Chandler/East group. Of those numbers, 8 or 9 come out to the West meetup and we have 3 regulars at our Chandler event. Special events such as Shun Run had 20 as did our special meetup with AAWA members from Tucson. So... the numbers may not be large even in a big city, but it is clearly helpful to those online and especially those who come out. Some in the Ex-JW community are in pretty awful shunning situations.

Cheers,

-Randy

3

New home for: Chandler Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses

by rawe in

jw
friends

i am the organizer of the chandler az, ex-jehovah's witnesses support group.

i am moving the group from meetup.com to groupspaces.com.

groupspaces.com provides a free service for groups like ours with fewer than 50 members.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

I am the organizer of the Chandler AZ, Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses support group. I am moving the group from meetup.com to GroupSpaces.com. GroupSpaces.com provides a free service for groups like ours with fewer than 50 members. If you live in Chandler please feel free to join our group. Our sister group is the West Phoenix Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses. They are still on meetup.com.

Even if don't live in Chandler but plan on a visit our group meets the first Wednesday at 7pm. We would love to meet you! Our group is not associated with any faith or belief system. We merely provide support for folks finding their way out of the religion. We also organize the "Shun Run" public awareness around around the time of the memorial.

Chandler Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses: http://groupspaces.com/ChandlerEx-JehovahsWitnesses/

West Phoenix Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses: http://www.meetup.com/exjw-431/messages/archive/

Cheers,

-Randy

544

FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice in

i have seen debates and shizzle about god or not god etc etc.. i was even confronted by an aggressive and trheatening muslim in the street, who was angry that i wanted proof that god existed.

he ranted on a load of old b0110cks about 'hell' and stuff.

finally he yelled at me: 'do you want god to write your name in the sky?

rawe

Hi Tammy,

"Is your family still in? You still study the bible with your children? That is interesting."

We all left as a family, my wife, myself and our four girls. My oldest continued for about 6 months but eventually left as well. I have three older girls (24, 22 and 19) and then our youngest (9). So, yes if you would count the Bible reading as study, then I do. My 3rd daughter studies at St. John's College. It is not a religous school despite the name, but rather a "great books" program and as part of that she has covered the Bible, including translating a fair amount of it from Greek.

I completely agree with you on the subject of Jesus Christ. The NT, much of which is the writings of Paul, is entirely focused on Jesus as the Christ. Something that is de-emphasized by the Witnesses and the NWT.

I found the Book of Mormon an easier read than the Quran. Reading it feels like sitting in church listening to a preacher. There are some repetitious phrases like "and it came to pass" that repeat. And of course you'll run into KJV text from Isaiah -- 13 consecutive chapters in one place.

Cheers,

-Randy

544

FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice in

i have seen debates and shizzle about god or not god etc etc.. i was even confronted by an aggressive and trheatening muslim in the street, who was angry that i wanted proof that god existed.

he ranted on a load of old b0110cks about 'hell' and stuff.

finally he yelled at me: 'do you want god to write your name in the sky?

rawe

Hi Sam Whiskey,

If man is so smart, why can't science produce even one single seed that would produce a blade of grass from scratch? I men are so smart, then they should be able to create simple rocks, should they not?

The answer is simple, they can do none of those things. Only God can produce a rock or a bladed of grass. Man has created nothing, only minipulated what was already here....which of course was actually made by God.

I think you make a good point here. I wouldn't phrase it exactly like that, but essentially the standard of judgment you're using is measured capability. I not sure if it would qualify under the definition of "simple rocks" but most of the elements you see on the Periodic Table of elements ( see http://www.webelements.com/ ) with higher numbers have been discovered because scientists synthesized (created) them.

If anyone made the claim they knew exactly how non-organic matter first became a living biological system a good test of that would be to create a form of synthetic life. No one has passed that test and therefore we can say the origin of life is still unknown. All we know is that it happened, since life is obviously here. One theory for the origin of life is made by God, but that theory suffers from circular reasoning as soon as you say God was alive at the time.

Cheers,

-Randy

544

FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice in

i have seen debates and shizzle about god or not god etc etc.. i was even confronted by an aggressive and trheatening muslim in the street, who was angry that i wanted proof that god existed.

he ranted on a load of old b0110cks about 'hell' and stuff.

finally he yelled at me: 'do you want god to write your name in the sky?

rawe

Hi Tammy,

Thanks for your so very honest response. Even saying you almost never read the Bible other than to look up passages. I also appreciate your comments about why you look up passages. Humans are social animals we survive and thrive in large part because we're willing to help each others. That is what makes the shunning policies of Jehovah's Witnesses particularily cruel.

The cost of an explanation, "cheaper", as I put, is often called Occams Razor. It is the observation that given two possible explanations it is most often true the most economical one is the truth. My moral dilemma comment hints at the problem of suffering, which I don't think is actually easy to dismiss without being illogical. As Witnesses we were told suffering was the result of Adam and Eve being disobedient. We were also told, Jesus, through his father Jehovah, was the creator of all things, including life on earth. This makes the answer to suffering illogical, since a rabbit suffers when it is attacked and killed by a wolf in the same physical way a human child would suffer if they were the object of attack. Yet we would here need to assume, Jehovah through Jesus, would have worked through all the design elements of a wolf would know such would lead to suffering. Likewise humans get cancer and die, it is assume because of sin (Romans 5:12), but dogs also get cancer and suffer in the same way, although we wouldn't assume they too inherited sin from the disobedience of Adam and Eve. I appreciate some Christians argue for a universal application here to cover that -- but I suspect they do so, not because it it logical, but because they've spotted the problem of suffering and are trying to answer it.

As I read this thread I think my thoughts on the steel box are incomplete. It is obvious that we can carry concepts of people, ones not present and even purely imagined ones in our minds. But to suggest Christ is Holy Spirit implies an external entity that can effect you, within your mind, regardless of any barriers. I doesn't matter where you are, it doesn't matter what language you know. This is what I mean by incredible power to communicate. Consider this post, I am writing this in my home in Chandler, AZ. I happen to run Firefox on Ubuntu GNU/Linux. Each character that I type involves literally 100s of thousands of computer instructions being accurately processed within my home computer. But this is only the start, a number of computers connected to the world-wide Internet will process this data, mostly store it and forward it upon demand, until finally it reaches your screen, where you can read it. If you're blind more technology would be used to read the text back to you. If you didn't understand written English our communication break down. If you went into a steel box with no connection to the Internet my message could not reach you. Yet, Christ as a Holy Spirit, effortlessly overcomes any barrier.

On the subject of Bible reading, I would encourage you to read through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. When I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses I eventually was appointed as a ministerial servant then later as an elder. I felt a bit bad that while I had read many large sections of the Bible, even as an elder, I had not read it cover to cover. Since I was riding the bus to work, I used that opportunity to accomplish this task. I feel there is a real difference between how isolated verses sound compared to reading the entire context. I was so thrilled to complete the Bible, I decided to read all the major Holy Books, starting next the Quran, which I read. Then the Book of Mormon, which I started but stopped. I finally got back to the Book of Mormon after I left the faith in 2007. I was encouraged to read it by a co-worker who knew I left the faith, so I did, including the saying the Moroni prayer that is suggested at the end -- that prayer was not answered.

When you serve as an MS or Elder and you have children, as I do, it is required that you have a family Bible study. I think like most, my children did not enjoy yet another sit down Bible study, considering how much we did as Witnesses already. So I eventually reduce it down to reading 2 pages of Bible most week days. When I left the faith in 07, even though I was by that point an atheist, I saw no reason to stop the Bible reading program. Last night we just finished up Philemon and started on Hebrews. So I am close to completing the Bible for the second time. I should mentioned I did make one adjustment after leaving the faith, we read 2 pages of the Bible followed by 4 pages from another book I think my youngest (she is 9) will enjoy. Thus we're nearly complete on the 2nd book of the Harry Potter series. Reading HP was not something I would have allowed while in the faith, but I must say I've really enjoyed these books.

Cheers,

-Randy