Posts by rawe

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi S, et al,

Part of the reason I left the last one a question mark, was I had to hurry off to work. My point is intelligent design is a real and applies to many things. When a gopher digs a hole he (or she) is using his brain -- thus it can be said the hole is an example of ID. As is the arrow head, as is the Mona Lisa. We generally know the output of an intellect when we see it.

But the vast majority of scientists, especially biologists, reject the notion postulated by Behe, that the first example of life on the planet was the result of ID.

It is also generally understood and accepted that all examples of life now are definately not the result of ID in the present tense. Although a man or woman may use their intellect in the mate selection process, they have no real control over the purely natural processes that result in a new example of a human. Thus, comparing ID systems (such as a camera) to natural systems (such as an eye) is fundementally flawed.

If we accept that life now results from natural causes and not ID, why would we feel compelled to suggest the first example of life was ID?

For the sake of argument, lets say that is the case, life originates from ID. Even if that is the case, then when did it make the transition to natural forces? To Behe he stops at the first cell, then lets evolution take over. As Witnesses we were taught every species had to be specially created, based on the assumption that reproduction, selective pressures and mutations could never result in new species. That is really an odd view of ID -- considering the "intelligence" keeps creating species that ultimately go extinct, some where north of 90% of the time!

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi Cantleave,

I really hope you don't teach science Randy!

I'm not a teacher. I work as a software engineer -- but please do expand on this.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi Julia,

I've touched on the two belief systems (evolution and ID) when teaching, while not promoting either one.

Our ability to understand the world is largely based on our ability to correctly separate things into two basic categories...

(1) Things that are the result of intelligence

(2) Things that are the result of natural processes without the input of an intelligence.

Thus when we see a gopher hole, we can assign the hole to the intellect of the gopher. However, the gopher is not the product of ID, we know it is the result of a process of sexual reproduction and growth.

A snowflake with its intricate crystal shape - #2

A round smooth rock - #2

A rock shaped into an arrow head - #1

The Mona Lisa - #1

All living life forms - #2 (i.e. come from some parent form of the life)

First example of a life form - #?

Cheers,

-Randy

140

WT Society holds EXTREME Responsibility for 1975 and False Expectations

by flipper in

jw
friends

however- many jw's who have come into the jw organization from like 1985 forward virtually may have no knowledge of the wt society's 1975 debacle and false predictions of the end times or armageddon predictions.

just like in in the book 1984 by george orwell the wt society has a way of not only erasing it's history so no newer witnesses will be aware of their false predictions, but also they are re-writing their history as if those false predictions never happened.. so for those of you here who may have never read or heard of how whipped up into an emotional frenzy witnesses were in the years just before 1975 by the wt society claiming the end was any day now- this threads for you.

to see the pressure that was put on jw's by the wt society to get rid of everything before " armageddon " .

rawe

Hi Flipper,

I was 9 years old in 1975. My parents were both disfellowshipped and had been since I was 4. We lived in Wells, BC, Canada, pop ~500. The nearest Kingdom Hall would have been in Quesnel over 50 miles away. And yet, I was excited and giddy at the prospect of the world coming to an end -- thanks in large part to my dad, who continued to preach the "truth" to his children. Somehow in my mind, I got it in my head the actual day would be December 25th, to show how bad Christmas was.

At that time I loved knowing the truth about Christmas and that Santa Claus wasn't real -- often arguing with my little friends on this subject. So... with out telling any one I counted down the days until 12/25/1975. Nothing happened. Being a kid I brushed it off and didn't think about it much after that. However, when I was studying the Life Everlasting book prior to my baptism in 1981 the study conductor wanted to skip over the chapter that emphasized 1975, but I insisted we cover it.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi LisaRose,

I wonder why those people who are frustrated with those who do not believe evolution even bother to read or post here?

Personally I have a few reasons for posting. I relate to Crazyguy's OP, in terms of how I felt about the subject as a believing JW. I really do hope to be helpful to any who are interested in the subject, while admiting I am not an expert by any means. Finally, I think it is a great way to learn more about a subject. Reading books is great too, but actually "testing the waters" so to speak gives me a sense whether or not I have gaps or weaknesses in my arguments -- knowing I'll likely be called out on them.

The subject does seem to generate emotion, so it may be difficult to be completely objective. I know when I really saw for the first time some of this dishonesty in blue Life How Did It Get Here? book, I was very frustrated and felt seriously betrayed by the author. Then throw into the mix, some who defend Creationism such as Behe seem to employ less than honest means.

But, yes, always good to put any hostility in check, as long as doing so doesn't divorce us of who we are.

Cheers,

-Randy

16

If you can understand THE CREATION OF EVE you can understand how the Watchtower spins lies

by Terry in

google_ad_section_start the watchtower, may 1, 1975, said of a watchtower bible school of gilead graduation held on march 2, 1975: (italics added).

another speaker, f. w. franz, the society's vice- president, forcefully impressed on the audience the urgency of the christian preaching work.

he stressed that, according to dependable bible chronology, 6,000 years of human history will end this coming september according to the lunar calendar.

rawe

Hi Terry,

All this raises a serious question about Jehovah directing the organization along with the relative importance of ideas. When I was studying in my teens the second book we covered was Life Everlasting in The Freedom of The Sons of God. Very detailed chronology from Adam down to 1975 and even 2975 (+ 1000 years) given a mention.

Why is all this research and detailed understanding of chronology suddenly never mentioned after 1975 comes and goes? Why is this chronology the subject of much print before 1975 but not afterwards? As far as I am aware none of the underying chronology has been revised since. So why not a Watchtower study or two showing how 1975 was the end of 6000 years of human existence?

Or consider the case of Reasoning From The Scriptures. It contained impressive analysis of the rise in the number of earthquakes in the 20th century. Now, I appreciate there is some serious objections to the methods employed in the analysis. But for argument sake, lets say, the point is completely solid. From 1914 until the research for the book was done there was a rise in the number of earthquakes. And this formed positive proof we were living in the "last days." What should one make of this reading in in 1985?

What about 1995, 10 years later?

Or 2005, 20 years later?

Or 2015, 30 years later?

Or 2025, 40 years later?

Would the author of Reasoning From The Scriptures, be willing to say, "Now when you read this earthquake analysis, you should understand that indicates we are living the the 'last days', but... the end could easily be down the road for another 30 years"?

So it goes, time is a harsh master for the those making end-of-days, soon, about-to, any-day-now pronouncements. And the kicker is Jehovah would know all along nothing would happen in 1914, 1925, 1975 or 28 years since the Reasoning book appeared.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi Cofty,

The whole purpose of the ID movement is to sneak creationism into education by confusing people with pseudo-science.

Enormous efforts have been made to calculate the precise number of Pi. This past March 14th my daughter posted "Happy Pi Day" to me on Facebook. A Google search is reporting we've computed upto 5 trillion digits of Pi now! So it seems when the pursuit of science has no theological implcations or there is no emotional attachement to an appealing, but ultimately wrong view, it can proceed without problems.

I now often think of a man I called on several times and also work with in Canada. He was older and well read. And he tried is darnest to help me see how my creationist views were flawed. He even had several of the books quoted by Life How Did It Get Here? -- By Evolution or Creation?. Yet, I was not prepared at the time to let go. I had far too much invested in my JW faith.

I really felt Behe could provide comfort for my creationist views, alas, just the opposite. He invites his readers to take a deeper view and that was the beginning of the end for me.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi S,

Are you referring to the irreducible complexity idea? Or, that blood cells adapted? Thanks.

I'm referring to the irreducible complexity idea. I would have read Behe book sometime time before 2005, so my recall may be off. But I recall he used three examples of IC biological systems, a little biological motor that moves a rotofer(sp?) tail, the immune system and how blood clots. In all cases he made the point all the parts of the system must be in place for it to work, remove a single part and it fails. I am a software engineer, not a biologist, so in many ways all I can do with arguments like this is assume the expert (Behe) has considered all possible ways the system could be reduced and has found none. Thus it struck me, that a layman such as myself could immediately think of a response to the blood clotting cascade argument.

I further found it ironic, that it was my interest in how blood works, stimulated by our views on blood transfusions, that gave me the knowledge about Factor VIII.

One of the Latin phrases you find in Darwin's book is "natura non facit saltus", which translates "nature makes no jumps." Only after reading Miller's book, did I fully appreciate IC is an attack on natura non facit saltus. And, that is a good thing, we should look for IC systems. Because attacking and attempting to kill a theory is what science is about. But we also need to be honest and avoid saying something is IC when it can easily (by other experts) be shown that it is not.

Even though I don't agree with Behe's views, I still think it is a great book for Witnesses with an interest in this subject to start with. Mostly because Behe has been quoted in the publications and even received an extensive interview with his picture in Awake! Thus there should be no objection to reading his material. Then, since Kenneth Miller is aligned with Behe in terms of expertise and religious views, I see no reason why anyone in the faith should object to reading his book.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi Crazyguy,

You've raised a number of objections I too at one time felt dealt the theory of evolution a fatal blow. Rather than answer them one by one, I would like to suggest you read three books. I would be interested in your views on them afterwards or now if you've already read them.

The books are:

Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe, Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller and On the Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.

A major turning point in my thinking happened while trying to help a friend of mine who had left the faith. I bought him and me a copy of Michael Behe's book Darwin's Black Box. This was the first time I read any material on the theory of evolution outside of what had been provided by Jehovah's Witnesses. Behe is both religious (Roman Catholic) and a microbiologist. He rejects the notion that a series of random events could have resulted in the complex biological systems we see at the cellular level. I am not sure, but he may have even coined the term "Irreducibly Complex." Since these biological machines were only discovered after Darwin's time, Behe points out these things were a "black box" to Darwin.

Behe would eventually be interviewed by Awake!

A couple of things immediately struck me about his book. One is he fully believes that the theory of evolution operates on life, once life had been placed here by some intelligent agency. I knew that was not compatible with my beliefs as a Witness! Second was his example of the blood clotting cascade being IC didn't jive with something that had happened in Canada. Unlike the USA, in Canada, blood was not tested for HIV (it is now of course) and as a result many became infected with AIDS. When Horace Krever ran his Royal Inquiry on this he apparently wound up interviewing the oldest living hemophiliac in Canada. This individual did not take Factor VIII like others, because he was a Witness and did not wish to take this blood-based product. So... it struct me, isn't hemophilia actually what Behe said could not exist -- i.e. a blood clotting system with one of the parts missing? Yet, obviously it still worked well enough that this person was able to live.

It was then my friend gave me a copy of Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller. His religious views are exactly like Michael Behe, Roman Catholic. His education and expertise is also similar -- microbiologist. His book shook my world to its foundations! I knew by the end, Miller, not Behe had won the argument on this subject. Not only does he masterfully deal with Behe's arguments but also that of several others. I also realized why scientist in this field as a general rule accept the theory of evolution as sound. Shortly after reading this book I resigned as an elder.

Only later after I had left the faith did I start to think about an objection we would often present to people who were critical of the Bible. We would ask, respectfully, had the person actually read the Bible? Had they studied it? Thus I set upon reading Charles Darwin's book On The Origin of Species. The book, I will grant is not an easy read (at least for me). It has some long run-on sentences and long build up of foundational arguments before making a point. The first thing that jumped out at me is how modern and up-to-date the text reads, compared to the writings of Charles Russell. Both men wrote within a few decades of each other. The first Zion's Watchtower was written in 1879 and On the Origin of Species was written 20 years earlier in 1859. Russell's writings read like silly nonsense by comparison, especially on the subject of science.

Cheers,

-Randy

ps. Here is my, perhaps lame, attempt at some humor. Evolution is crap, to rabbits! Their digestive systems are setup such that material must pass completely through the system first, then be reintroduced at the start. Yes, it is apparently true, rabbits must eat their own feces to survive!

41

Why is there Evil? Atheist why has Evolution not eliminated it?

by ÁrbolesdeArabia in

jw
friends

.

satanus, i though i did a double post on this same thread, sorry i tried to delete the wrong one!.

rawe

Hi ÁrbolesdeArabia,

Our ability to plan and work towards a purpose is important to our survival. Even the simple act of preparing food for later consumption is an act of short-term self-denial and expending energy for long-term benefit. Since working towards a goal and having purpose is so much of our character, we have a difficult time understanding how a process like evolution works entirely without purpose or direction of any kind.

As far as we can tell our ability to work in groups to hunt for food has been key to our survival. Being a social co-operator has had high survival index for us. But so has our ability to be agressive and violent towards animals more distantly related to us. Thus I would posit that for humans, evolution has eliminated human-towards-human evil acts to a large degree. But evolution would eliminate it completely only if such had a higher surival index and could be accomplished on a step-by-step basis. Since we had to hunt for food, it is possible our aggression towards animals, with a spill-over effect towards other humans, has been a beneficial for our survival.

Cheers,

-Randy