Posts by rawe

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

"Perhaps her [Democratic Fox News Commentator, Kirsten Powers] testimony will shed some light on the kind of dynamic, interactive faith that Christians have . It is sometimes hard to explain except to describe the kinds of things that God does with it . Kirsten's story is pretty typical when God happens."

Despite being an athiest myself, I believe God does exist, but only as a concept within the mind of believers. This makes God very personal and immediate and powerful as the individual. As believers group together in like-minded thought exchange God can become a shared concept and then as powerful and as enduring as the group itself.

Notice how Kirsten describes her conversion in 2006: I woke up in what felt like a strange cross between a dream and reality. Jesus came to me and said 'Here I am.'

The account goes on about her boyfriend praying for her, thinking they needed to break up, her inability to shake off the experience, etc. But... in the end, it is an internal experience, that cannot and should not be confused for objective truth about existence of God apart of what is going on in her mind. Atheist's too of course experience their non-belief, but more often than not you'll hear them explain it in terms of conclusions (even reluctantly so) they've reached after looking at available evidence.

Cheers,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Tammy,

One of the things I sometimes see is believers make statements of belief, as if, such were just basic fact. I mentioned this to Cold Steel, when he asserted that the Book of Mormon is a "translation."

For example, you said... "There are atheists, agnostics, people of other beliefs/faiths/religion - who may enter the kingdom as subjects of the kingdom, based on their deeds."

Says who? What is the basis for making such an assertive statement. To that you offered this.. "(as recorded in their books at the second resurrection), and according to the parable of the sheep and the goats (doing good to Christ by doing good to even the least of his brothers as the sheep; and the reverse as the goats)."

Which just drives us around in a circle. Because the parable of the sheep and goats is just another statement of belief. And that to me is the big problem with building up a set of assertive statements that are not tied to anything concrete. When beliefs are unbounded, then, literally anything is possible. For example, perhaps God actually dislikes the sheep and favors the goats. That could be true, simply by asserting the parable of the sheep and goats has been corrupted by God's enemy.

Although your original post didn't directly make this point -- I think you've hit upon something important to both groups. And that, is a sort of plea -- to be understood and stop using extreme examples. I'm an atheist, but I am not at all like Stalin or the Khmer Rouge. Likewise, although technically some Christian literally believe a non-Christian like Mahatma Gandhi is right now burning in hell -- for most who attend a Christian church the subject of hell and who is being punished there is not something often considered.

Cheers,

-Randy

79

The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

by EndofMysteries in

let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

rawe

Hi Jwfacts,

"I guess I find such a belief in prayer ignorant. Does God answer prayers? Try praying for a new limb after an amputation"

Personally I too do not believe prayer is actually effective. But I offered it as an example of the religious mind seeking a reward without having to wait until the end of life.

I think an easy, but wrong, assumption we can make is the human brain is generally objective truth seeking. Rather, to me it appears the human brain has evolved in two important ways -- making up models of the world that appear to be rational -- and exercising imagination as a way to gain a reward some distance into the future that involves self-sacrifice in the present.

Cheers,

-Randy

20

Clarifying who can be labelled Creationist.

by jonahstourguide in

jw
friends

hi folks.

october 15 2013 study watchtower page 7 para 3. the paragraph states that.

"fundamentalists of christendom teach that the universe, including our earth.

rawe

Hi jtg,

Upto to about the point the Insight volumes replaced the Aid book, Jehovah's Witnesses held that each creative day was 7000 years in length. Thus while they didn't believe the earth and animals where created just over 6000 years ago, it was still within the range of young-earth (6 x 7000 = 42,000). Modern Witnesses now allow for each creative day to be an unspecified length of time and even for one day to overlap with another. Thus an age of 13.7 billion for the Universe and 4.5 billion for the Earth would not be a point of objection. Despite this, authors of Awake! and The Watchtower do not often reference the 4.5 and 13.7 billion numbers.

Nonetheless, Jehovah's Witnesses teach the first human (Adam) to ever have existed was created in 4026 BCE and the first female (Eve) shortly afterwards. They are thus compelled to believe all variation in mitochondrial DNA sequences[1], that passes only through mother to offspring, has happened in the past 6,039 years. Furthermore Jehovah's Witnesses believe all air breathing life, was reduced to what could fit on Noah's Ark and this event happened in 2370 BCE or 4,383 years ago.

Jehovah's Witnesses are absolutely creationists, but are simply less consistent than young earth creationists. They allow chimpanzee to have existed for millions of years, but demand special pleading in the case of a closely related species -- humans.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] mtDNA sequences can therefore change only via mutation. DNA sequeces provided by male sperm do not impact mtDNA sequences transmitted from one generation to the next.

79

The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

by EndofMysteries in

let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

rawe

Hi Jwfacts,

"In my opinion, that is the only reason people worship God. If there was no promise of an afterlife, there would be no religious people. No one loves God, they love the promise of something else after death."

I think that is too narrow. Many (most?) religious people feel God is helping them right now, answering their prayers, giving them an absolute moral code that improves their lives, or the opposite -- evil spirit forces are against them, etc. I would say, selective pressure has produced a brain that is good at imaging a reward or danger, etc, and this has been beneficial to our survival, despite some occasional downsides.

Cheers,

-Randy

90

Why do so many think JW Religion is a Cult? (NO APOSTATES PLEASE)

by Brother Mike in

jw
friends

my question is, why do so many think the watchtower bible tract society is a cult?

.

rawe

Hi Brother Mike,

"My question is, Why do so many think the Watchtower Bible Tract Society is a Cult?"

fwiw: I rarely use the word "cult", but rather refer to Jehovah's Witnesses as either "Jehovah's Witnesses" or "the faith" or "my former faith", etc. But this is just more of my writing & speaking habits more than anything else. Since most of my reflections on the faith are about the people and not the corporation, I also rarely use the full legal name as you have here.

Your request for "no apostates" would basically preclude anyone posting here, since "apostate" literally means "stand away from" and posting here is at a minimum standing away from the direction from the society not to participate on sites like this, that sites like this are not required, anyone wishing accurate information on Jehovah's Witnesses online should be directed to jw.org[1] alone, etc. This was covered extensively in a Kingdom Ministry insert, even when I was in the faith (pre-2007).

I think there are two reasons why folks use the word "Cult" in references to the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. First, I think those who leave eventually find it cathartic to admit to themselves and others they were part of a "Cult" -- to look in the mirror and say "I was a cult member" can be a powerful moment of progress in leaving the faith behind. Secondly, having had a negative experience with the faith, many are motivated to warn others that Jehovah's Witnesses are not as benign as they may appear to be, if all one knows is a bit about them from a door-to-door call.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] previously watchtower.org

79

The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

by EndofMysteries in

let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

rawe

Hi EndofMysteries,

"any hope for another life"

Our survival is tied to our ability to plan ahead and work towards a goal. This often invovles self-denial and pain in the moment. Think of the simple act of preparing a meal -- the labor is expended first, then the reward is later. Likewise with hunting, sometimes incredible patience and endurance is required before we are finally rewarded. Of course we would do none of this if we couldn't imagine the future reward.

What though happens if we imagine a reward that will never be achieved? Is there any harm in that? Could anchillary benefits in the present, compenstate for lack of an final reward?

Cheers,

-Randy

13

Interview with an Apostate: Rubadubdub

by rubadubdub in

tell us a little about yourself and your family.

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married 35 years to a raised-in since five years old, now ex-jw.

rawe

Hi Rubadubdub,

"I thought, “If one more person tells me my kids are going to die. . .” That was my tipping point. The bottom line was that I was never going to shun either of my children."

What a wondeful expression! The organization demands loyalty the exceeds everything else, including towards ones family. Despite protests to the contrary this is not different than others faiths with similar practices such as the Unification Church, the Amish or even the Westboro Baptist Church.

Cheers,

-Randy

11

Interview with an Apostate: rawe (Randy)

by rawe in

tell us a little about yourself and your family.. my name is randy, i live in chandler, az with my wife and our daughters.

my oldest is married and has a son, making us grandparents.

my second still lives at home with us, but recently got engaged, so will be leaving the nest soon.

rawe

Hi Neverendingjourney,

Very cool! If you can make it, our next meetup for Ex-JW Chandler group is this Wed at 7:00pm at the Blue 32 in Chandler. Confession is an assistant organizer of the group. We are planning on repeating the Shun Run event for 2014. Same format as 2013, walk through Papago Park, followed by a meeting at the library where several will speak on a number of subjects. I will publish more details as the date gets closer. I still haven't even authored my annual letter to SDB:SSY -- although on a few of my runs a few ideas flash through my mind. I keep coming back to Prov 18:1 about the one isolating himself, against all practical wisdom he will break forth.

The idea being, that the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses keep isolating themselves from the norms of the rest of the world and where has it lead? A lawyer in abuse case saying "remember we're not the Catholic Church." That the better course, is to join the rest of the world in rejecting small-mind cult-like thinking and allow members to have and use their own conscience. Getting all the words and throughts right is a challenge. Not that I really expect them to read it or pay heed -- instead I wish for the words to pay honor to all the brave souls willing to step into the void and move away from the comfort of their Witness world for the sake of their conscience.

Cheers,

-Randy

12

Question for exjws who are now atheist..

by EndofMysteries in

this question is for athiests who had been jw's, and when leaving, had to pretty much start fresh (if most of your association had been jw's).. to help you better answer the question, here is first the reason i am asking it.

my whole life and assocation were jw's only.

when i left, it was at first being pretty isolated while making new friends/etc from scratch.

rawe

Hi EndofMysteries,

"I was curious if any athiests would join something like that, not because of the beliefs or religious aspect but the community aspect of it, provided they allowed non believers like you said."

My wife directly asked Rev. Andy after the service how many members would identify themselves as atheists. He responded about 1/2. The congregation has about 200 or so members. As far as I can tell both Unitarians and Universalists have Christian roots that started with the rejection of damnation (i.e. universal salvation). In 1961 the two groups merged to form the UU Church. Since they are liberal and inclusive those who didn't fit into other religious settings found their way into UU. The growh of atheists and humanists in the group I think is fairly recent. I still have a fair amount of ignorance about this -- so please don't take what I say as for certain.

"Just hypothetically if I became athiest, after seeing what a real group as Jesus said, they have love among themselves, is like, I think just for those things I'd stick around."

In the book The Portable Atheist - Essential Readings for the Non-Believer, page 307 has an bit by Richard Dawkins entitled Atheists for Jesus. In this Dawkins makes the point modern atheists have parallels with Jesus, in particular his rejection of "many aspects of Yahweh's vengeful nastiness." The problem of course in testing the waters of atheism, is we may have little personal choice in the matter, but rather feel strongly compelled by the evidence before us. The harder we try to find some reason to retain belief in God, very well may lead us to deeper rejection of the notion entirely. That was true in my case -- it is, I must now admit, just who I am.

Yet, I too feel a longing for belonging to coin a phrase. Will the UU church work for this? I don't know, but I hope so.

Cheers,

-Randy