@TD, et al
If you have access to Excel, I posted a version of the Nisan 13-15 timeline for it, which would make it a lot easier to stick the scriptures where you think they go.
WontLeave
JoinedPosts by WontLeave
-
90
I called the KH- "the Memorial is tomorrow night, right?
by moshe ini called just before noon today- an elder promptly answered the phone.
i told him, " uh, memorial is tomorrow night, right?".
passover starts tomorrow night, after sundown!
-
-
-
56
Happifying? Real WT quote, or are we joking -
by james_woods inmaybe i just missed it, (the story of the word) - but i am seeing this word "happifying" in a lot of threads.. can it possibly be that the wt actually printed this??
?.
-
-
WontLeave
After reading most articles and sitting through most meetings, I feel stupified.
-
50
Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand
by Doubting Bro inthis is a question for all the christians on the board.
i sat through the first co talk last night which was basically a plea to not give up preaching.
one of his main points was that no one else had "the truth" and every other person that claims to be christian is in error.
-
-
WontLeave
sectarian bias vs grammar is the only reason it deviates one time
Find me another instance with similar sentence structure (not just the 2-word phrase) and we'll see how it's translated.
you would not defend it if you had a few months of introductory Greek
This might be true. Similarly, people with a semester of psychology might misdiagnose a mental condition. However, people with several years' experience seem to disagree, as reflected in many translations. I'm sure you're already aware of this, so I won't belabor the issue or copy and paste examples. Additionally, some translations of Exodus 14:3 don't read "I Am", because God was not making that his name, but stating his existence. Exo 6:3 reminds us what God's actual name is.
Jesus is Jehovah is true in a monotheistic sense
That would be monotheistic, so long as you included all other gods in the mix. But, contrary to popular belief, the Bible is not monotheistic. Why don't you take a look at the link I sent you to my realization on John 1:1, because you're arguing against claims I've never made. Those are called "straw men".
You are still essentially WT on the essentials.
On most doctrinal issues, or it would have been silly to join in the first place. I studied the Bible and other "holy" books before I knew what to believe. Then, I searched various church denominations to find like-minded people. On the surface, JWs appeared to be a Bible-only religion. They lied. Their focus is more on the Governing Body than God or Christ and more on Watchtowers than the Bible. I discovered the dual doctrines after I'd already joined: One for preaching and another for inside the congregation. Even the internal Watchtower is written with ambiguity built in so the elders can give it even more of a hard-line slant, while retaining deniability to the public.
You may be stubborn and independent
That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive - Eph 4:14
the acid test is the Deity of Christ
That's what many churches say. Can you show me where Jesus says that?
-
50
Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand
by Doubting Bro inthis is a question for all the christians on the board.
i sat through the first co talk last night which was basically a plea to not give up preaching.
one of his main points was that no one else had "the truth" and every other person that claims to be christian is in error.
-
-
WontLeave
biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity
If you believe the Trinity is Biblical or historical, you need to research the origin of the doctrine. True, it has become "orthodox", but so have many other clearly false doctrines. Many of these are argued by various Catholic spin-off religions, but the vast majority cling to the Catholic invention of Trinity.
I assume you are Arian and believe Christ is creature, not uncreated Creator
Jesus has a unique relationship with the Father. He is the only-begotten and his position and nature can not be equated with anything else. Jesus was instrumental in creation; this is clearly stated in Scripture. I have posted brief essays of how the Bible describes the relationship between the Father and Son to me. There's one in this post.
I assume you still deny the personality of the Holy Spirit?
No more than anything else I've ever seen poured out or something filled with. Once again, Holy Spirit is unique and nothing else like it exists to equate it to.
Quoting a verse generically is not interpreting or defining it. If I was asked, I would not hestiate to say that He is God Almighty in the flesh, the God-Man, one person with two natures
And that is why your doctrine is flawed. Stick with what the Bible actually says instead of filtering it through church doctrine and trying to force Scripture to fit preconceived doctrines.
Until you renounce the WT
I don't recall ever claiming any sort of WT-centric faith.
embrace Jesus as Jehovah (I AM), you will still be lost in your sins.
Jesus is Jehovah? That is a patently false Mormon belief. Are you saying there is no father/son relationship? This would require higher and lower relative positions of separate individuals. If you cling to the Trinity, you're implying God used about the worst possible language to describe his relationship to Jesus. Just like the WT, you're attempting to "explain" what God meant to say and failed to. There is no "I AM". That is a blatant manipulation in translation to reach a Trinitarian goal. That particular argument is a dogmatic grasping at straws.
Given your position, should the WT not disfellowship you? Should you not have the integrity to let them know where you are at so they can kick you out?
I don't generally seek a fight with the elders, but will not run from one, either. I have been confronted for exercising Christian freedom or differences of opinion about various things and stuck with the Bible when it conflicts with WT doctrine. I have posted about this many times. I do not hide my beliefs in my congregation, which is why I have been attacked by the elders. This type of behavior and disregard for Scripture, in favor for Watchtower articles were instrumental in completing my awakening. When the dogmatic power structure does decide to cast me out of the synagogue (which I have no doubt will happen), I want it to be for the best possible reason: Standing up for the truths in the Bible. That doesn't mean I'm going to give personal information out over an Internet forum.
-
90
I called the KH- "the Memorial is tomorrow night, right?
by moshe ini called just before noon today- an elder promptly answered the phone.
i told him, " uh, memorial is tomorrow night, right?".
passover starts tomorrow night, after sundown!
-
-
WontLeave
@Eggie
This is my last reply to you, because you are dense, obnoxious, and clearly taking advantage of distance and anonymity. Once again, everybody understands the Jewish day. Numbers clearly states they left on Nisan 15, which was still the same day as the Passover - still Nisan 15. The straw men are too numerous to list and I'm not going to do this with you anymore. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and stood up for you when it seemed everybody was out to get you.
I am now done with you, because you only care about winning an argument and have no consideration whatsoever for truth or facts. Go tell yourself you've won and if you can convince yourself of it, then one person will believe it. Obviously you have some self-esteem issues which require you to amass people to agree with you. I don't need you to agree with me. Everybody here who cares has seen the arguments for the 14th and the 15th and I'll leave them to make up their own minds. You are a lost cause and I don't have the patience or desire to see correcting you through to the end. Perhaps if you see the light, you can slink off and make a new avatar to save face.
-
50
Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand
by Doubting Bro inthis is a question for all the christians on the board.
i sat through the first co talk last night which was basically a plea to not give up preaching.
one of his main points was that no one else had "the truth" and every other person that claims to be christian is in error.
-
-
WontLeave
@godrulz
Ah, a conversation; much better.
Who do you say Jesus Christ is? Where did you get those ideas?
The only begotten son of God. (John 3:16) The Way, the Truth, and the Life. (John 14:6)
Have you considered what He said and claimed about Himself?
Very much so.
What is your preferred Bible version?
Most real translations have strong and weak points. I avoid using interpretations like AMP, GNB/TEV, MSG. I avoid using any verses that suddenly appear in later manuscripts. Biblegateway.com is a good resource. http://lexicon.katabiblon.com is a nice Koine online interlinear and http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/ is a pretty comprehensive Hebrew interlinear.
Are you a Russellite or something?
I don't temper the Bible with human understanding.
Do you affiliate with any formal group?
While I am still a member of a Jehovah's Witness congregation, I feel like Jesus with the Pharisees. While I may have more in common with their beliefs than others, their pigheadedness and absolute devotion to erroneous human understanding puts us at odds, as there is zero tolerance for dissent. My feeling toward them is similar to James 2:19: You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
What are your influences and beliefs on essential doctrine?
The Bible. Emptying one's cup and allowing the Bible to speak without preconception is extremely difficult and requires a true desire for truth and not to find "proof texts" for doctrines already held. I've had to uproot many things planted by many sources. Every time I read the Bible I discover new things I have to remove from my mind that have been introduced by outside sources. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Why would you still identify with the WT if they are so corrupt/wrong?
I do not identify with the Watchtower. I neither read the magazine nor acknowledge any authority in the corporation. I believe God uses them to lead people toward truth, but no imperfect religion in Satan's world will ever be able to lead to truth. A human organization can only take us so far, then it's us, the Bible, and begging God for Holy Spirit to lead us to proper understanding. I feel I have graduated from the milk of the Watchtower and my "sola Scriptura" philosophy has introduced me to many things JWs have wrong. But that doesn't mean they have everything wrong. They are closer to true doctrine than any church I've examined, but they still miss the mark by a fairly wide margin.
Where are you from?
USA
How do you do quotes?
Just like that. I kid. Drop box that says "Styles". Just stick your cursor at the end of the line/paragraph you want to put in a box and click "quote". At least that's the way I do it. If you highlight multiple lines and do it, you'll get the lines lying on top of each other. Perhaps you've seen this phenomenon in some posts.
How does one do a profile? Do you have to have so many posts to get more privileges?
Not sure on either of those.
-
50
Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand
by Doubting Bro inthis is a question for all the christians on the board.
i sat through the first co talk last night which was basically a plea to not give up preaching.
one of his main points was that no one else had "the truth" and every other person that claims to be christian is in error.
-
-
WontLeave
@godrulz
Can't leave/won't leave
We are 2 different people. I am relatively new to this forum and didn't realize there was someone with a similar name, but they are very dissimilar in spirit. He obviously feels trapped - as many do. I, on the other hand, refuse to cower or slink off. I don't have family in the organization I treasure more than my relationship with God and I do not fear the losers in cheap suits who constitute the body of elders or the Governing Body. Jesus is my Lord and my leader.
I am not Catholic
I never said you were Catholic. I said you "parrot the same crap the Catholic Church made up". Most, if not all, "mainstream" churches are just Catholicism with some adjustments. Instead of taking something known to be broken and patching it up with tape and bubble gum, why not just start from scratch and let the Bible set doctrine? Obviously, you have no clue how the things you believe came about.
My beliefs in Deity of Christ, Trinity, etc. are rooted in Scripture, not the blind following of tradition, creeds, etc.
Right. Nobody saw the Trinity in the Bible for thousands of years in the OT or for hundreds in the NT, but you spotted it right off, with zero outside influence. The Catholic Church tortured people because they rejected this ridiculous doctrine and that's the only way it ever gained popularity.
Tell me you are not using NWT?
When dealing with JWs, I will. When dealing with people who reject the NWT, of course not. I don't use any scriptures, from any version, which are specious in nature.
The fact that you were deceived by WT gives you little credibility to pick a fight with me
If you had actually read nearly any of my posts, you'd know that I realized problems with the organization very quickly and rejected their authority and some doctrines nearly from the start of my association with them. You assume too much, believe too much, and know too little.
Truth does not run from error.
I'm right here, buddy. What'ca got? You do not want to throw down with me in the Bible. The fact that you're slinking around here, looking for someone disillusioned with their belief structure, to tear at everything while directing them to blasphemous church inventions which nearly everybody here knows didn't exist in Jesus' mind and weren't preached by his apostles betrays your desperation. It wasn't until the Catholic Magisterium started the Inquisitions, these vile canards began to take hold in Christianity, degrading it to the disgusting abortion it is today. And you're here preaching it.
-
48
there are 2 classes of ex Jehovahs witnesses
by the max inhi im part of a group of ex jh,s, we meet for drinks and dinner, go to football games.many of the guys do drugs,(i dont, i like sport) , most live very hedonistic lifestyles, lets leave it at that,(im happily married).
my point is, when i left, i was honest, and got df,d.
now im experiencing the same kind of shit that i experieced in the hall, the ex jw,s are just as judgemental, and stupid as when they were at the kingdom hall, for eg you were df,d we were not,it doesnt matter to them, that their doing coke and getting into group sex.
-
-
WontLeave
Evidence?
Unfortunately, those statistics aren't publicly-available. I could give a few "some names have been changed" sort of anecdotal evidence, but I'm afraid those aren't very persuasive. I personally know many currently or past-DFed JWs. None were removed for apostasy, but criminal activity and adultery seem to be the main reasons. Most who would be removed as "apostates" seem to fade, DA, or never get baptized. I should have made it clearer I was referring to disfellowshipped ex-JWs, specifically.
-
90
I called the KH- "the Memorial is tomorrow night, right?
by moshe ini called just before noon today- an elder promptly answered the phone.
i told him, " uh, memorial is tomorrow night, right?".
passover starts tomorrow night, after sundown!
-
-
WontLeave
@Eggie
You are speculating, so it would have been more appropriate, IMO had you simply told @wannabefree that you really don't know the answer to her question, but that you were just guessing about this.
Actually, I was showing that rather than relying on my own understanding, I went to the God's word for clarification. It appears you have done this, too. The only difference is my God is the Creator of the Universe and your God is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
And Jesus died on Nisan 14 and on Nisan 15, right? Is this what you are saying here?
No. Jesus died on Nisan 15, as I've said all along. He died on Passover, which 3 of the 4 Gospels agree on.
No, the Jewish day consisted of 24 hours pretty much as our day consists of 24 hours, except the way the morning hours were reckoned (i.e., "the third hour," "the sixth hour," "the ninth hour") were different than the evening hours (i.e., "the first watch of the night" (from 6:00 pm to 10:00 pm), the middle watch" (from 10:00 pm to 2:00 am) and "the morning watch" (from 2:00 am to 6:00 am), or, in Jesus' day, there were "the first watch" (from 6:00 pm to 9:00 pm), "the second watch" (from 9:00 pm to 12:00 pm), "the third watch" (from 12:00 am to 3:00 am) and the fourth watch" (from 3:00 am to 6:00 am)).
So, there are 12 "hours", just like I said. And the night is "watches". Thank you for restating exactly what I said, but saying I was wrong in the process. Jesus didn't die at night and night divisions were never mentioned. Now, you're starting to piss me off. I already let the Aviv/Abib comment slide, because I figure you soon discovered either is acceptable.
The Bible indicates though that it was not "at midnight" on Nisan 15 that "the destroyer" passed over the homes of those having the blood of a lamb or a goat splashed upon their doorposts and on the upper part of their doorways, but that it was "on this night" -- Nisan 14
Numbers 33:3 will clear this up for you. The morning after Passover was Nisan 15, not Nisan 14. Since - as you have repeatedly implied you're the only one who understands - Jewish days span sundown to sundown, this would be about half-way through the 24-hour period known as Nisan 15, which began the previous sundown and continued until the subsequent sundown. Unless you're going to say the Jews stood around in their sandals with all their belongings packed and their staffs in their hands for a dozen hours, until sundown and Nisan 14 ended, before they heeded Pharaoh's command to leave. Of course, that wouldn't work either, since they (let's see if I can paste the Hebrew) ???????? (Yiš'û) - "pulled up tent pins" or began their journey - on the ???????? (Mächórat) - or "morrow", which means they left the morning immediately following the Passover.
And the Egyptians began to urge the people in order to send them away quickly out of the land, “because,” they said, “we are all as good as dead! - Exo 12:33
they had been driven out of Egypt and had not been able to linger and too they had not prepared any provisions for themselves. - Exo 12:39
it was in haste that you came out of the land of Egypt - Deut 16:3
No. It looks like they took off ASAP, which would mean the Passover and the start of the Exodus occurred on the same Jewish day, Nisan 15th.
Nisan 15 would be the first day of the seven-day sabbath, the second day of eight days when unfermented cakes would continue to be eaten
But, the Bible says this:
Seven days YOU are to eat unfermented cakes. Yes, on the first day YOU are to take away sourdough from YOUR houses, because anyone eating what is leavened, from the first day down to the seventh, that soul must be cut off from Israel. - Exo 12:15
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening YOU are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening. Seven days no sourdough is to be found in YOUR houses, because anyone tasting what is leavened, whether he is an alien resident or a native of the land, that soul must be cut off from the assembly of Israel. Nothing leavened are YOU to eat. In all YOUR dwellings YOU are to eat unfermented cakes. - Exo 12:18-20
The evening after the 14th is considered the 1st day of the 7-day festival, not a preceding day, totaling 8 days. If they ate unfermented cakes from the sundown beginning the 14th - rather than ending it - to the 21st that would be 8 days (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21), but the Bible clearly says it's supposed to be 7 days, including the evening following the preparation day of the 14th.
Now, if you want to suggest they ate unfermented cakes 8 times, but over the course of 7 days, I might be able to stipulate to that. Perhaps they ate the evening following Nisan 14, then starting the next day (daylight period) on Nisan 15, up until the end of the day (sundown) on Nisan 21. This would allow the festival to be 7 days long, with a partial day (the afternoon of Nisan 14) devoted to preparation, but not technically included as part of the festival. This understanding allows all scriptures to fit. Rather than trying to force the Bible to match our understanding, shouldn't we adjust our understanding to fit the Bible? You're attempting to make Scripture fit the Watchtower and that's going to lead to frustration and embarrassment.
-
50
Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand
by Doubting Bro inthis is a question for all the christians on the board.
i sat through the first co talk last night which was basically a plea to not give up preaching.
one of his main points was that no one else had "the truth" and every other person that claims to be christian is in error.
-
-
WontLeave
@godrulz
The balancing scales of Adam/human Jesus is the WT manmade doctrine that is not rooted in Scripture
I'll even use the Trinitarians' pet translation, the KJV, which is a sectarian version made by and for the Church of England, to fit its doctrine:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. - 1Cor 15:45-47
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. - Rom 5:17-19
As far as "church history" or the other human interpretations you cite, I'm pretty much done with having my Bible filtered through people. Your very presence here is a bit strange, actually. You've never been a JW, but you're lurking around looking for disgruntled JWs to substitute your bastardization of Scripture for their previously-held bastardization of Scripture. I'm already privy to the fact that a church member who converts to lock-step Kingdom Hall member has just traded one untruth for another untruth. Your blind adherence to your personal church lie is no different than the hardcore JW's blind adherence to that lie.
Normally, I ignore you, but you're starting to piss me off. You leap on every other thread with your canned church dogma and parrot the same crap the Catholic Church made up 1600 years ago. I'm sorry your god died, but mine can't and didn't. Contrary to the convoluted and demonstrably false Trinity doctrine, Jesus didn't "resurrect", but was resurrected (Acts 2:24). I'm often pleading with JWs to put down the Watchtower and allow the Bible to speak to them. Now, I'm going to plead with you to do the same. Put down the creeds, the commentaries, the catechisms, the rites and rituals, and allow God's Word to speak to you. Empty your cup of all the preconceptions you've been programmed with all your life. The truth in the Bible is logical, simple, and clear, if you don't muddy the waters with all the church clutter.