Posts by Vanderhoven7

84

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex in

i am starting this topic to discuss the title.

i know many people on this forums dont believe in the idea of god , and even jw's reject the idea of a fiery hell even though the bible clearly states is.. this video contain testimonies osome people who even considered themselves as atheists until the point of practical death.. i just want to emphasize what one person said in the video at the point of death - " what if god is real, and what if all that which was being said about god was true" .

hope this helps whoever it may.. and one more thing, no matter what you do or how you live your life, just know that even at the point of death, jesus christ is able to save.

Vanderhoven7

Bioflex,

<<i know, but the reason why i brought that up was because you dont seem to understand the ideology behind the OT and all that took place. You are trying to convince yourself that since a fiery hell was not stressed in the OT means it does not exist.>>

Not only is it not stressed, it is simply not there...in any of the 39 books. To suggest that it is is to add to the Bible.

<< Now when we come to the new testament there is simply no denying it. Even Jesus himself spoke of it, perhaps we should look into the NT.>>

It's truly facinating that although there is no such thing as eternal torment as the punishment of human sin in either the hell (Sheol) or the eschatology of the Old Testament, yet the Pharisees believed it. So before we jump into the NT (passage by passage) I'd like to ask you where you think the Pharisees might have got hold of their traditional views on hell and the afterlife?

84

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex in

i am starting this topic to discuss the title.

i know many people on this forums dont believe in the idea of god , and even jw's reject the idea of a fiery hell even though the bible clearly states is.. this video contain testimonies osome people who even considered themselves as atheists until the point of practical death.. i just want to emphasize what one person said in the video at the point of death - " what if god is real, and what if all that which was being said about god was true" .

hope this helps whoever it may.. and one more thing, no matter what you do or how you live your life, just know that even at the point of death, jesus christ is able to save.

Vanderhoven7

Bioflex,

I hate to complain, but you are all over the map. Let's try to deal with one passage at a time, shall we?

We are evaluating the biblical case for the traditional doctrine of "hell" defined as eternal torment. I asked how the Pharisees of Jesus day might have developed a very traditional view from the Old Testament alone. You came up with Isaiah 14 which does not establish eternal torment or even temporary torment of human beings after death.

<<I am talking about the whole of Isaiah 14, specifically 11 downwards. unless perhaps you want to tell me lucifer is also bound to die some day.>>

Yes, l want to tell you exactly that but we can look for clarity on Lucifer/Satan's fate especially as we hit Revelation 20. But for now, to you, what about the whole of Isaiah 14, or specifically verses 11 downward, should have convinced the Pharisees of eternal torment as the punishment for human sin?

84

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex in

i am starting this topic to discuss the title.

i know many people on this forums dont believe in the idea of god , and even jw's reject the idea of a fiery hell even though the bible clearly states is.. this video contain testimonies osome people who even considered themselves as atheists until the point of practical death.. i just want to emphasize what one person said in the video at the point of death - " what if god is real, and what if all that which was being said about god was true" .

hope this helps whoever it may.. and one more thing, no matter what you do or how you live your life, just know that even at the point of death, jesus christ is able to save.

Vanderhoven7

Bioflex....you wouldn't be Godrulz resurrected, would you?

You listed Isaiah 14. I assume you would want special emphasis placed on verses 4 - 11

Isa 14:4 that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Isa 14:5 Jehovah hath broken the staff of the wicked, the sceptre of the rulers;
Isa 14:6 that smote the peoples in wrath with a continual stroke, that ruled the nations in anger, with a persecution that none restrained.
Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir-trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid low, no hewer is come up against us.
Isa 14:9 Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All they shall answer and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to Sheol, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and worms cover thee.

First: This says nothing about eternal torment. Nor is there mention of torment at all, unless loss of power (weakness) is interpreted as a synonym for torment

Second: This passage is defined as parabolic (4)

Third: This passage is filled with personification, trees speaking; Sheol (the Grave) attributed emotions; waking the dead to mock the king of Babylon.

Fourth: dead kings rise from their underground thrones to make light of their former ruler now covered with worms

This entire pericope is a powerful parody of personification

From: Eternal Torment: Image and Reality

Not only is Sheol personified, but it is also presented in satire, (while incorporating some of the mythological views of Babylon and Egypt), to ridicule special visitors. 1 Sheol, for example, is said to stir up dead kings, and have them rise from their thrones and welcome Israel's enemies. (Is.14:9,11,15; Ez.32: 21,24,27) These same leaders are also personified for dramatic purposes and pictured as carrying on a conversation in Sheol while still engaged in their lifetime pursuits.i.e. ruling

84

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex in

i am starting this topic to discuss the title.

i know many people on this forums dont believe in the idea of god , and even jw's reject the idea of a fiery hell even though the bible clearly states is.. this video contain testimonies osome people who even considered themselves as atheists until the point of practical death.. i just want to emphasize what one person said in the video at the point of death - " what if god is real, and what if all that which was being said about god was true" .

hope this helps whoever it may.. and one more thing, no matter what you do or how you live your life, just know that even at the point of death, jesus christ is able to save.

Vanderhoven7

Bioflex

As I see it, the Bible does not present eternal torment as the wages of sin.

Before looking at the New testament I'd like to know how you would explain the fact that the Pharisees had developed a very traditional doctrine of hell and torment. My question would be where might they have derived eternal torment from any of the 39 books of the Old Testament.

I'll be glad to look at every NT passage with you once we see whether eternal torment is supported in the Hebrew scriptures.

42

Is the "Watchtower Study" = Question and answer a form of brainwashing??

by Witness 007 in

on sundays study we were always told to keep answers brief and from the paragraph as some brothers would add "other meterial" to their comments.

the "correct" answer is right there in the paragraph.

read question --------find answer in paragraph------underline/highlight------read related {not] scripture-----raise hand---give answer from paragraph as though it's your own thought.

Vanderhoven7

Thanks Jay88. It's nice to be appreciated as an outsider.

Yes, "a meeting" was certainly enough for me.

I hesitate to speak for others.

42

Is the "Watchtower Study" = Question and answer a form of brainwashing??

by Witness 007 in

on sundays study we were always told to keep answers brief and from the paragraph as some brothers would add "other meterial" to their comments.

the "correct" answer is right there in the paragraph.

read question --------find answer in paragraph------underline/highlight------read related {not] scripture-----raise hand---give answer from paragraph as though it's your own thought.

Vanderhoven7

Worse than brainwashing, these "studies" are an insult to intelligence; besides they are a total bore. I couldn't wait to leave.

37

Is this an anti-JW website?

by keyser soze in

jw
friends

when i registered here over 4 years ago i thought it would be a good place to interact with like-minded christians who loved jehovah as much as i do.

but after reading some of the posts on here i'm beginning to believe that the sentiment on here is largely anti-witness.

i justed wanted to tell you all what vile and hateful people you are..

Vanderhoven7

MDK....KEYSER is just having a little fun. The giveaway, if you were not familiar with his viewpoint on the WTs, was the fact that it took him 4 years to realize this site wasn't kosher.

Edit: Oops! It just occurred to me that you might be about as serious as he is.

37

Is this an anti-JW website?

by keyser soze in

jw
friends

when i registered here over 4 years ago i thought it would be a good place to interact with like-minded christians who loved jehovah as much as i do.

but after reading some of the posts on here i'm beginning to believe that the sentiment on here is largely anti-witness.

i justed wanted to tell you all what vile and hateful people you are..

Vanderhoven7

You mean this isn't the official Botchtower website?

6

Were the IBSA the FDS in 1919?

by Vanderhoven7 in

were the ibsa the fds in 1919?.

in 1919 the organization that claims appointment was known as the international bible student association (ibsa).

witnesses have since claimed a "cleansing" that lasted into the early 30s.

Vanderhoven7

Were the IBSA the FDS in 1919?

I just came across this question.

In 1919 the organization that claims appointment was known as the International Bible Student Association (IBSA). Witnesses have since claimed a "cleansing" that lasted into the early 30s. An interesting occurance that also happened early during this time period was the take over by Rutherford, against the will provisions of Russell, the dropping of many of Russell's teachings and mass exodus of "Bible Students" as they are still known today, and changing of the name to JWs. All of this happened between 1917-1931. So were the IBSA the FDS in 1919?

18

Worldly Kids at a Bus Stop - I see why JWs home school!

by skeeter1 in

jw
friends

this morning as i was driving back home from putting rug rat #2 in pre-school, i saw one middle-school boy throw another kid into some thorny bushes at our local bus stop.

the kid sailed through the air and landed face down.

i stopped to see what had gone down.

Vanderhoven7

Many parents have poor parenting skills and can not handle or control their kids. I met one man while house hunting who pointed to his disrespectful kids and said, "As soon as they turn 18, they are out of here."