Posts by Vanderhoven7

57

Remember the Revelation book?

by wozza in

i recall when it was released ,that's when i was a drone, how excited i felt at the prospect of reading it and formulating ways to sell it at the homes in my area.. i thought, finally a book to explain the last book in the bible and indeed one that the churches seemed to want to leave alone!.

i sold quite a few probably because of my enthusiasm and can still remember clearly the first day when i went knocking on doors with it ,and it's been decades since.. but over time it lost it's shine and my mind started to question the explanations in it due to the scene of other things being changed in the jw beliefs.. do you remember they flogged that book so many times in the book studies even when it was found to have "newer light " eclipsing it!.

who else remembers the printed pages with the official corrections to insert into the book ,so many that the book collapsed to be of no relevance anymore really.....what an embarrassment!.

Vanderhoven7

I've used the Revelation book with JWs to illustrate the difference between sound interpretive practice and interpretive abuse; exegesis vs eisegesis. There are no comebacks.

12

144000 who’s idea first

by Tim207 in

hello this is my first post although i’ve lingered on this site before.

i’m curious about a comment i read saying that rutherfords idea of only 144000 going to heaven was taken from the founder of the church friends of man.

i tried looking up this church but could not find information on when they started this belief.

Vanderhoven7

Hi Tim

"Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the Spirit plane? Answer - Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling....They therefore receive life on a spirit plane." Pastor Russel (What Pastor Russel Said p.297)

"...the great company class, born on the spirit plane, who are to be servants before the throne, like unto the angels...No one could be either of the little flock or of the great company class unless he is spirit-begotten." Watctower, 2/15/1918 p. 51

"Ezekiel was given a vision of a great and marvelous temple. That vision of Ezekiel concerning the temple has been a mystery for ages and generations, but now is due to be understood. The Scriptures and the physical facts both show that this prophecy was not due to be understood by God's people on earth until the year 1932. ...This picture shows the position of the great multitude. Ever and anon someone advances the conclusion that the great multitude will not be a spiritual class. The prophecy of Ezekiel shows that such conclusion is erroneous. The fact that their position is seven steps higher than the outside shows that they must be made spirit creatures." Rutherford (Vindication -book III p 204)

Then a Reversal in the Channel

In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, (in 1935) J. F. Rutherford presented Scriptural proof that the modern-day “other sheep” are identical with that “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. (John 10:16) At the climax of this talk, the speaker asked: “Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?” As a large part of the audience stood up, Rutherford declared: “Behold! The great multitude!” There was a hush, followed by loud cheering. On the following day, 840 new Witnesses of Jehovah were baptized, most of these professing to be of the great crowd.” The Watchtower May 1, 2001 pp.14-15 “Behold! The Great Crowd

“In 1935 the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9-15 was understood to be made up of “other sheep,” Christians with an earthly hope, who would appear on the world scene in “the last days” and who as a group would survive Armageddon. (John 10:16; 2 Timothy 3:1; Revelation 21:3, 4) After that year, the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful. Watchtower May 1, 2007 p. 30-31.

"Jehovah never makes any mistakes. Where the student relies upon man, he is certain to be led into difficulties. J. F. Rutherford (Prophecy pp.67,68)

- Were Jehovah's Witnesses relying on man?

- Was the prophesy, that was not really understood until 1932, wrong in 1935? (This is when Rutherford changed his mind about the destiny of the "Great Crowd".)

"Men not only contradict God, they contradict one another. How can they be reliable guides..." (Awake, Mar. 22,63)

33

Are We Living In The Last Days?

by Vanderhoven7 in

just received this note out of the blue from a pimi jw.

how would you respond?.

hi vander,.

Vanderhoven7

Yes, good one 1234. I like the serious approach you use too Ding.

33

Are We Living In The Last Days?

by Vanderhoven7 in

just received this note out of the blue from a pimi jw.

how would you respond?.

hi vander,.

Vanderhoven7

Well if one day equals 1000 years, we might still have 100 years to go.

33

Are We Living In The Last Days?

by Vanderhoven7 in

just received this note out of the blue from a pimi jw.

how would you respond?.

hi vander,.

Vanderhoven7

Joen..yes for those incultcated (did I just coin a new word?) it often requires the bad news before the good news can penetrate.

Reminds me of a joke. A persons dentist sent him to a dental surgeon with the instruction to extract tooths 1-32. Unfortunately the surgeon extracted every tooth including 1 and 32, instead of just 1 and 32. When the patient woke up the surgeon, realizing his mistake, tells the patient, I've got good and bad news for you. What's the bad news he asks. Unfortunately I misread the referral and pulled every last tooth in your mouth. Oh no, came the response, what's the good news. The guy in the waiting room wants to buy your toothbrush.

Sorry, I know it's a groaner.

33

Are We Living In The Last Days?

by Vanderhoven7 in

just received this note out of the blue from a pimi jw.

how would you respond?.

hi vander,.

Vanderhoven7

NSo many good answers...Joen, you nailed it biblically, but the Bible doesn't stand a chance against the word of men in New York. So I am going with Fadeaway's and Cadellin's responses.

Vander

33

Are We Living In The Last Days?

by Vanderhoven7 in

just received this note out of the blue from a pimi jw.

how would you respond?.

hi vander,.

Vanderhoven7

Hi All,

Just received this note out of the blue from a PIMI JW. How would you respond?

Hi Vander,

Hope you are doing well during this CoronaVirus pandemic.

Don't these crazy times remind you of the Bible's prophetic words:

War on a large scale.?—Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:4.
Famine.?—Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:?5, 6.
Great earthquakes.?—Luke 21:11.
Pestilences, or epidemics of “terrible diseases.”?—Luke 21:11,Contemporary English Version.
Increase of crime.?—Matthew 24:12.
Ruining of the earth by mankind.?—Revelation 11:18.
Deterioration of people’s attitudes, as shown by many who are “unthankful, disloyal, . . . not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride.”?—2 Timothy 3:?1-4.
Breakdown of the family, with people who have “no natural affection” and children who are “disobedient to parents.”?—2 Timothy 3:?2, 3.
Love of God growing cold in most people.?—Matthew 24:12.
Noteworthy displays of religious hypocrisy.?—2 Timothy 3:5.
Increased understanding of Bible prophecies, including those related to the last days.?—Daniel 12:4.
Global preaching of the good news of the Kingdom.?—Matthew 24:14.
Widespread apathy and even ridicule toward the evidence of the approaching end.?—Matthew 24:37-?39; 2 Peter 3:?3, 4.
The simultaneous fulfillment of all these prophecies, not just a few or even most of them.?—Matthew 24:33.

Are we living in “the last days? Re: msg 2

10

STIR CRAZY please help me covid-19 with religious family

by Wagurl in

hi need some help with the teachings regarding the 4type horsemen and the virus.

i'm 17 going to be 18 in six months.

i am a running start student and trying to find the best way to move out after i graduate next year to continue.

Vanderhoven7

If you read Matthew 24 you will see that the tribulation was local to Jerusalem and Judaea.; that Christians were to run to the mountains when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, and to pray that their flight would not be in winter or on a Sabbath day. This event was to precede the destruction of the temple and city (not one stone left on another) followed by the dispersion of surviving Jews to all nations. This happened in 70 AD as an unrepeatable event.

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are parallel passages which should set your mind at ease that Jehovah's Witnesses have no idea how to interpret biblical prophecy and never have.

30

A chance for the unrighteous?

by AlainAlam in

the witnesses teach that the "unrighteous" are brought back to life in order to learn about god during the 1000-year reign.

i don't think that's a bible teaching, for the following reason:.

1) no verse says that.

Vanderhoven7

AA,

The point is there will be people who need strong discipline during the 1000 year reign. Neither Christians nor Old Testament saints will require such discipline. Who else, but non-Christians, non-righteous individuals would require such discipline. If you posit a second group of relatively-righteous Christians exist to fill this role, I would like to see what you consider as biblical support.

30

A chance for the unrighteous?

by AlainAlam in

the witnesses teach that the "unrighteous" are brought back to life in order to learn about god during the 1000-year reign.

i don't think that's a bible teaching, for the following reason:.

1) no verse says that.

Vanderhoven7

Hi AA,

Do you brlieve the righteous OT saints will need to be smitten and ruled with a rod of iron, i.e., strong discipline?

Also where do you find a second group of Christian believers in scripture that are bereft of the indwelling Spirit, a heavenly hope and are not in the new covenant?