Posts by Vanderhoven7

21

Watchtower Disparages the Bible

by Vanderhoven7 in

i'm looking for wts quotations that contrast with ii timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.. here is one from way back..

"...people cannot see the divine plan in studying the bible by itself...if he then lays them [scripture studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.

on the other hand, if he had merely read the scripture studies with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures," (watchtower, sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).

Vanderhoven7

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that people can be saved and sanctified through reading and studying the Bible alone without knowing anything about the Watchtower organization?

Dean writes:

Absolutely not.

NOBODY can understand the Bible without the Jehovah’s false Witnesses’ watchtower organization of MEN telling them what the Bible means

Their founder once said that if you did just read the Bible alone, without his or the organizations’ input, you would fall into “apostate teachings”.

Isn’t that extremely amusing?!

If i read the Bible and Bible ALONE, i will believe “apostate teachings”....

"Jehovah gives us sound counsel through his Word and through his organization, using the publications provided by “the faithful and discreet slave.” ( ie: the watchtower organization ) (Matthew 24:45; 2 Timothy 3:16) How foolish to reject good advice and insist on our own way! We “must be swift about hearing” when Jehovah, “the One teaching men knowledge,” counsels us through his channel of communication.—James 1:19; Psalm 94:10."

Watchtower, 1973 July 1st p.402 "Jehovah’s organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God’s holy spirit or force (Zech,4:6) Only this organization functions for Jehovah’s purpose and to his praise. To it alone God’s Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book.", "How very much true Christians appreciate associating with the only organization on earth that understands the ‘deep things of God’! Direction by God’s spirit enables Jehovah’s servants to have divine light in a world of spiritual darkness."

"Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization. ( ie: the watchtower organisation )" (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)

"Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 )

"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization ( ie: the watchtower ), not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible." (The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 587.)

"All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.( ie: the watchtower )" (The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1994, p. 8.)

KINGDOM MINISTRY SEPTEMBER 2007, QUESTIONS BOX

Does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47.

No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views. They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature.

Throughout the earth, Jehovah’s people are receiving ample spiritual instruction and encouragement at congregation meetings, assemblies, and conventions, as well as through the publications of Jehovah’s organization. Under the guidance of his holy spirit and on the basis of his Word of truth, Jehovah provides what is needed so that all of God’s people may be “fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought” and remain “stabilized in the faith.” (1 Cor. 1:10; Col. 2:6, 7) Surely we are grateful for Jehovah’s spiritual provisions in these last days. Thus, “the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight.—Matt. 24:45-47.

21

Watchtower Disparages the Bible

by Vanderhoven7 in

i'm looking for wts quotations that contrast with ii timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.. here is one from way back..

"...people cannot see the divine plan in studying the bible by itself...if he then lays them [scripture studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.

on the other hand, if he had merely read the scripture studies with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures," (watchtower, sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).

Vanderhoven7

Hi Baihi

<<“Come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation!”>>

Here is a question I asked on QUORA

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that people can be saved and sanctified through reading and studying the Bible alone without knowing anything about the Watchtower organization?

Sergio Saavedra

Member of Jehovah's Witnesses for decades responded

Answered Jul 23

No, we don’t believe that.

Many people try to reduce the idea of salvation to a very brief explanation, a kind of slogan; sometimes only one word.

But the Bible is a little more thorough about it:

John 17:3: “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” —So yes, we need to come to know the only true God and also to know Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 3:15: “From infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” —And yes, we need to know the holy writings, the Bible, in addition to have faith in Christ, or as a way to have faith.
John 20:31: “But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.” —We have to believe that Jesus is the Christ or Messiah and the Son of God.
John 3:16: “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone execising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” —So, we need to exercise faith in God’s Son.
John 3:36: “He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life.” —This shows that obedience is connected to faith.
Luke 18:18–21: “And one of the rulers questioned him, saying: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and your mother.’”” —So, according to Christ Jesus, we have to do good works and obey God’s commandments.
1 Corinthians 6:9, 10: “Do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom.” —Our moral conduct is directly implied in inheriting God’s Kingdom or not.
Luke 10:25–28: “Now look! a man versed in the Law stood up to test him and said: “Teacher, what do I need to do to inherit everlasting life?” He said to him: “What is written in the Law? How do you read?” In answer he said: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” He said to him: “You answered correctly; keep doing this and you will get life.”” —Christ also said that loving God and our neighbour is essential.
Joel 2:32: “And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” —Thus, we need to know and respect the name of God and especially to rely on and trust in the One who bears that name. That implies true repentance and trust in Jehovah’s forgiveness, according to verses 12 and 13; it also implies truly coming to know him, trust him, obey him, and put him first in our life.
Romans 10:13, 14: “For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?” —Everything is connected; there is an interesting chain here: we need to call on God’s name, but for that, first we need faith, and for that, first we need some degree of knowledge.
Romans 6:23: “For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.” —Ultimately, everlasting life is not something we can earn, it is a gift from God for those who meet His requirements.

So, salvation is a little more complicated than “only faith”, “only works”, “faith and works”, “study of God’s Word”, etc. It is a free gift, but some requirements are specified in the Bible.

And one of them is belonging to the Christian congregation.

Jehovah’s Witnesses, believe that, in view of Scriptural patterns like God requiring the ancient Israelites, and later the first-century Christians, to congregate for worship (organized worship that included singing, readings from the Scriptures, and public prayer), it is reasonable to conclude that today, too, God would expect his friends to worship him in an organized fashion.

And we also think that there are benefits from worshipping God as part of a congregation, which might be one of His reasons to ask that from us.

For instance, the Scriptures liken the genuine worshipper to one who is traveling over a cramped road; and in another instance, to a runner in a race. (Matthew 7:14; 1 Corinthians 9:24–27) When running a long, hard race over difficult terrain, a runner may easily tire out and eventually give out. However, a runner can often push himself beyond his personal threshold if he has encouragement from others. Likewise, a spiritually-minded person can successfully maintain his relationship with God despite adversities if he has encouragement from other worshippers.

This explains the words at Hebrews 10:24, 25:

“Let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together.”

In fact, the Scriptures state that true worshippers would render worship as brothers and sisters, united as a figurative body. A body united by a bond of love and peace. For example, Ephesians 4:2, 3:

“I . . . appeal to you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, with all humility and mildness, with patience, putting up with one another in love, earnestly endeavoring to maintain the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace.”

How could we comply with this admonition if our worship were independent and detached from other worshippers?

We have the conviction that it is God’s will that instead of being a loose association of spiritually-minded individuals, true worshippers merge into a tight community of faith. The Bible exhorts worshippers to speak in agreement, to avoid divisions, and to be “fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Cor 1:10) Those words would make little sense if God wanted people to worship him only as individuals apart from one another.

To us, it is clear that evidence from the Bible points to an organized form of worship as the kind that is acceptable to God. And the organized religion that the Scriptures describe, the one that God sponsors, can give you the support you require to be successful in satisfying your spiritual needs and receive the free gift of salvation for those who exercise faith in Jesus. (Mat 5:3; John 3:16)"

21

Watchtower Disparages the Bible

by Vanderhoven7 in

i'm looking for wts quotations that contrast with ii timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.. here is one from way back..

"...people cannot see the divine plan in studying the bible by itself...if he then lays them [scripture studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.

on the other hand, if he had merely read the scripture studies with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures," (watchtower, sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).

Vanderhoven7

I'm looking for WTS quotations that contrast with II Timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.

Here is one from way back.

"...people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself...if he then lays them [Scripture Studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures," (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).
Got any more?

19

Will Christ Be Ashamed To Claim P.IM.O.'s?

by IWant2Leave in

i started my fade about two years ago and at present i have no intention of writing a disassociation letter.

the pros and cons of being p.i.m.o.

have been discussed on this forum many times.

Vanderhoven7

It is good that you are concerned about what Christ's reaction might be to your decisions.

You cannot serve God on the fence. You have to be the truth to honor the Truth. You give up everything when you become a child of God. If you love your family more than the Truth you are not worthy of Him. If you give up your family and friends for the kingdom you will retain your integrity, dignity and witness to the world. God is looking for men, for warriors.

All early Christians called on the Lord Jesus Christ I Cor.1:2 I suggest you ask Christ personally to lead you to make the right decision at any cost. I would encourage you to have fellowship with Christians who are not Witnesses and who will support you if and when you you leave the organization.

12

Watchtower More Important than the Scriptures

by Vanderhoven7 in

mack moore ex-jw recovery writes:.

yes, that is how they want people to esteem the magazine.

they believe it is the unique mouthpiece of god.

Vanderhoven7

Mack Moore ex-JW Recovery writes:

Yes, that is how they want people to esteem the magazine. They believe it is the unique mouthpiece of God. They call their organization “God’s wife”, and “the visible part of God’s organization”. They believe that by reading The Watchtower and related publications, they are receiving “spiritual food” from God. Not from their leadership, but from God. Not the bible, their publications.

They won’t admit it, but they even consider The Watchtower more important than the bible, for members can be (have been) punished for reading the bible independently, not under the guidance of of Watchtower publications. It is necessary, they believe, to let the organization contextualize bible passages for them, or they might “misunderstand”, which is contrary to the paradigm of direct inspiration of the holy spirit. Spirituality without inspiration is a sham.

They tell a story that “God has always had a visible representative on earth” (no matter how incommunicado), and strongly imply that, for the past 150 years, being God’s representative has been their role. They even claim that there have been “Witnesses” in existence throughout history, even though their organization was only founded in 1879. That’s, ahem, revisionist history.

While they don’t officially claim to be inspired prophets, they do make that claim unofficially, again and again and again. They frame their language very carefully so as to allow for plausible deniability in this respect, because they know it’s impolitic to claim to be an inspired prophet. But that’s what they believe. They repetitively encourage members to believe it, even though they don’t come right out and say it because doing so would be bad marketing.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult. All cults use cult mind control. A given organization that doesn’t use cult mind control is not a cult. Cult mind control is the simultaneous application of many tactics designed to overwhelm a subject’s capacity to reason and make an original decision, and instead mentally conditions them to accept the group ideology without challenge.

The Witnesses claim to respect reason and original decision making, but then they actively undermine these things. Actions speak louder than words!

These tactics are multi-faceted and multi-layered. It takes great skill to perpetrate cult mind control. All leaders and members mutually enforce on one another, but they don’t call it “enforcement” or “cult mind control”, and don’t realize what they’re doing. They are conditioned to behave in certain ways, but they don’t realize that those behaviors are collectively known as “cult mind control”, and they don’t realize that all cults engage in those same behaviors.

Jehovah’s Witnesses call it “encouraging” one another, and “keeping the congregation clean”. Ideological purists consider an ideological mistake to be “spiritually unclean”, not realizing that “spiritually clean” means—not getting all the details right—but rather, radiating love in imitation of God, who is love. (1 John 4:8)

So they use their misprioritization of ideas over love and their obsession over ideology as an excuse to do hateful things to each other, including orchestrated deception, social pressure, psychological abuse, and repetitive indoctrination (brainwashing) centering around an unchallengeable ideology enforced in a totalitarian way in a closed socially-separatist community setting.

They permanently shun and cut themselves off, even from immediate family members, just for having disagreed with the organization. This is how cults destroy families. Ideology can be used to justify absolutely anything.

Cults take their ideology with deadly seriousness. They don’t tolerate dissent. They persecute dissidents into changing their minds; or if they won’t, they are expelled (in the case of political cults, they are executed).

I was a Jehovah’s Witness for 28 years. I remember many times being presented with such questions. They are meant to bolster courage, but they use shame and social pressure as motivation. They mean well, because they imagine that they are helping their members “stay on the narrow road leading off into life”.

There certainly are times for courage. Inspiring people to be their best is admirable. However, inspiring people and motivating them with shame and social pressure are not even similar. Treating The Watchtower magazine as if it were holy—as if it were the mouthpiece of God himself—is an indication of cult mind control and charlatanism, even if it’s unintentional.

Though holy spirit and angels are certainly active, God does not have a human mouthpiece today. Humans who claim to represent God are charlatans and political power mongers, although sometimes they mean well. Yes, it is quite possible to perpetrate great harm while motivated by good intentions. Good intentions are not enough.

There actually have been times when Jehovah’s Witnesses were faced with that choice, risking hanging to read The Watchtower. Why? Because many countries have banned Jehovah’s Witnesses and their literature for good cause, including Egypt, Dominican Republic, Argentina, Russia, Gabon, Uzbekistan, Angola, French Guiana, Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Malawi, etc. Stories of hardship suffered by Witnesses in these and other countries are circulated to other Witnesses around the world for motivational purposes.

Perhaps cults (organizations that perpetrate cult mind control) should be banned everywhere. However, the Witnesses cannot conceive of any good cause, and don’t realize they are perpetrating cult mind control, which is mental slavery. They don’t get that there’s a problem with taking ideology too seriously. They don’t get that intellectual alignment with theology is not spiritual experience. One only learns to recognize these problems after exit and during recovery.

Like all cult members, Jehovah’s Witnesses actually do mean well (at least the rank and file do). They don’t realize they are perpetrating great harm, and making themselves slaves of men, by prioritizing ideas over love. Cultism boils down to ideological totalitarianism.

That which is “spiritually unclean” is not actually a mistaken idea, nor failure to submit to men pretending to speak for God; rather, it is failing to walk in love. And the correct response to “spiritual uncleanness” is not hatred or abandonment; rather, it is radiating love unconditionally.

God is not ideas. “God is love.” (1 John 4:8)
____

If you're interested in learning more about cults and mind control, please follow my Quora space "Freedom from Cult Mind". Thank you.

21

A "killer" question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Terry in

jw
friends

here is a 'killer' question for jw's.

which description best describes how you see yourself and how you feel?which would you choose?

are you: 1. a christian 2. a jehovah's witness here's the scenario.

Vanderhoven7

Yes, there is a difference between being a Jehovah's Witness and being a Christian.

My favorite intro question for JWs is:

When did you become a Christian?

Typically, their response has been to relate which part of Christendom they were associated with before they studied with Witnesses, realized it was the truth and became true Christians.

That gives me the opportunity to share how I came to Christ and experienced His gift of salvation, forgiveness, and eternal life.... in other words, the gospel.

Then I ask them if they have received the gift of eternal life (Ro.6:23) and of course they have not unless they are members of the 144,000. As other sheep, they are not granted eternal life until the close of the millennium. Then I ask them to show me where the Bible speaks of Christians who are not saved, born of the Spirit, or part of the New Covenant. Biblically speaking, there is no such thing as a Christian who is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Ro.8:9) or not imputed the righteousness of Christ. They always fall back on John 16:10 and Revelation 7 to support their two-class theory, neither of which speak of unjustified believers bereft of the indwelling Spirit or a heavenly hope.

Their gospel is non-salvific. Witnesses redefine salvation as surviving Armageddon so they can continue working hard to attain a righteous standing and eternal life at the close of the thousand year reign and become sons of God.

16

Isn't Canada Great, even close to a Spiritual Paradise?

by Disillusioned JW in

a moment ago i clicked onto the link at https://bigglobaltravel.com/cities/funny-pictures-canada-yh/?utm_campaign=canada%20pictures%20shira1606%20dup0109%20msn%20edg%20en%20-%20desktop%20usa%20ya&utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=msn_us&utm_content=msn.com&psl=g_61cd4e&network_code=cm which shows slides of canada.

viewing those slides (in combination with the other things i have seen and heard about canada) made me feel that maybe canada is about as close as one can get in the western world to a nation which is now a spiritual paradise, much like a new peaceful order now.

imagine that the usa would never have had a civil war.

Vanderhoven7

Yes, thanks to Trudeau Canada now has a trillion dollar debt. But unlike the USA, there doesn't seem to be a need to contest voting practices here except when it comes to referendums to break up the country.

We are blessed.

20

Do you think the Door to Door KNOCKING - field service will EVER resume AGAIN?

by pistolpete in

if i was a jw, and covid put and end to the door to door work for two years, and kingdom halls closed, it would get me to re-visit and think about the stupidity of the overlapping generation, and how they extended the deadline for armageddon to 2072.

(1992 franz death +80 more years).

if i was 20 years of age, plus another 80 = 100 years of age for the system to end.

Vanderhoven7

Not until herd immunity is officially declared...which is probably never.

15

I showed on of my JW (True Believers) that Kingdom Halls will be opening soon. He had a fit!

by pistolpete in

so i showed one of my older uncles the link on jw.org.. https://www.jw.org/en/news/jw/region/global/the-governing-body-announces-that-some-in-person-meetings-will-resume-in-select-areas/.

keep in mind that this is one of the relatives that is a true believer and used every excuse you can think of for the cancellation of all kingdom hall meetings.

and he also used every scriptural argument you can make up to justify the end of the door to door ministry.

Vanderhoven7

Just picked this up:

They have started making noises about opening up again but on the proviso that they have been vaccinated. There 4 pages of this: this is page one.

20

Do Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the Bible properly?

by Vanderhoven7 in

do jehovah's witnesses interpret the bible properly?.

jehovah's witnesses see the bible as an organizational book which only the faithful and discreet slave (currently 8 men headquartered in warwick new york) can interpret properly.

the faithful slave was first appointed in brooklyn in 1919 and given the exclusive right and ability to understand and teach the bible properly.

Vanderhoven7

SUGGESTED INTERPRETATION DIALOGUE

How confident are you that Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the Bible properly?

Are Jehovah's Witnesses able to recognize interpretive abuse?

How do Jehovah's Witnesses interpret Matthew 13:44?

Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hidden in a field;

the which when a man has found, he hideth, and for joy thereof

goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Mt.13:44

Note: This verse is somewhat outside the box for JWs. Listen to the explanation they give and follow up by providing the totally fabricated example provided here.

- Imagine you are approached one day by two young elders who see this passage as support for the Mormon religion. They explain that Joseph Smith discovered a treasure in gold plates while walking in a field in Up State NY in the year 1827. He immediately buried/hid these plates, but later (1260 days) after fully dedicating himself to God's kingdom, he returned to unearth them. They add that these plates were then translated into what we know today as The Book of Mormon. Then you are asked to compare Mt. 13:44 with Eze. 37:16 regarding the stick/book of Joseph.

a. Can you identify any problems with the interpretive methodology employed in this interpretation? [??]

b. As a Witness, how would you set them straight on this passage? [??]

Note: Since every doctrine which is unique/ original to Jehovah’s Witnesses is a product of similar if not identical interpretive abuse Witnesses will not willingly attempt to answer question a. So you may have to explain it to them by saying that the elders are in fact guilty of interpretive abuse, not only for ignoring context and arbitrarily linking unrelated passages, but also for tampering with (impregnating) the text by superimposing their own church history, names, dates and places onto the Bible. (eisegesis vs exegesis).