Posts by Vanderhoven7

35

Tony & JW made it to Norweigian media - even a pic of "dat broadcast"

by Festus in

well well am3 made it to norweigian media with hsi rant about religouse persecution.. hereis the link.. share your thoughts.. ble nektet statstøtte: jehovas vitner vurderer juridiske skritt – vårt land (vl.no) .

Vanderhoven7

It is clear that the brothers taking the lead in Warwick are humble enough to see their mistakes and correct them. What other organization on earth has the humility to change when greater knowledge is revealed by the Spirit? This is why you need to be in touch with God’s sole visible organization in earth if to want to attain to true knowledge of eternal life and survive Armageddon which is fast approaching.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

BruceX

Welcome to the forum Bruce!

16

Can you answer my questions, please?

by Sandie in

i have three questions.

i would be most grateful if someone could respond for me, please.

thank you.. 1. can jehovah's witnesses practice faith with the bible as a guide, or is it crucial to include the teachings of the watchtower society?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Again Sandie,

I take it that you are an evangelical Christian. You won't get into a JW forum for debate if that's what you are after. I've tried. The key criteria is that you accept the faithful slave and Jehovah's visible organization for that to happen.

But there are active JWs marking time on this forum such as Scholar and Fisherman. So stick around, there is hope yet for dialog with people who believe the Bible and are convinced that they alone are Christians and as such have a scriptural hope of surviving Armageddon.

16

Can you answer my questions, please?

by Sandie in

i have three questions.

i would be most grateful if someone could respond for me, please.

thank you.. 1. can jehovah's witnesses practice faith with the bible as a guide, or is it crucial to include the teachings of the watchtower society?

Vanderhoven7

1. No because the GB aka F&DS have written themselves into the salvation formula.

2. This takes more time and should be a post on it's own.

3. No, not according to JW theology.

Hi Sandi, Welcome to the forum! You will have a great time here with Ex-JW Atheists, Agnostics, Jehovah's Witnesses and several evangelical Christians.

42

WT Ruining Members' Futures

by HiddlesWife in

what i mean by the title of this thread is what has happened to a relative of mine, one who is really upset about this factor:.

this relative is a distant cousin on my mother's side of the family.

she studied as a child and got baptized at 14 1/2 years old.

Vanderhoven7

Here is Mark Jones' experience.

"I was born and raised into a cult known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

You may be surprised to hear it called “a cult” (or maybe you wont) but this is, at the very least, a high control religion that dictates what you wear, who you can marry, what kind of sex you can have, when you can have sex, if you’re allowed to have a beard, what websites you’re allowed to visit, what books you’re allowed to read, what hobbies you’re allowed to have and even the people you’re allowed to talk to.

I was born in 1984 and, at the time, my family and other Jehovah’s Witnesses were certain that armageddon would come before 2000. From the age of about 6 days old my parents would take me out in my pram while they knocked on doors peddling Watchtower literature.

The first thing to know is, association with outsiders is not allowed. The governing body (their leaders) call this “being unevenly yoked with unbelievers” 1 The idea is that association with non members is dangerous because it could influence your thinking and make you leave the religion. [Fun Fact: Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only the Watchtower society are allowed to influence your thinking.] Therefore, growing up, the only world I knew was the Jehovah’s Witnesses. There was no conflicting thought because everyone I knew thought the same way, believed the same thing, talked the same way, loved the same things, hated the same things and had the same opinion as each other on the same topics. Your world revolves around the cult. Literally every thought you have revolves around the cult. So much so that we’d consult Watchtower magazines, Watchtower literature or even ask the leadership what we should think on a certain subject. Individuality was not allowed.

The cult was (and still is) obsessed with two things. Using the name Jehovah (which they believe is the true name of god) and Armageddon. They believe that Armageddon is “just around the corner” and will strike at any second and that only active Jehovah’s Witnesses in good standing even have a hope of surviving it. 2 That’s all they have to hope for… hope to have even a chance of surviving. So they’re constantly on edge, checking themselves to see if they’re good enough to survive it. One of their governing body members Tony Morris III told them in 2014 that if they don’t go out preaching door to door Jehovah will see blood on their hands in Armageddon and they’ll lose their life.

So, growing up I believed all of these things. I had no non-JW friends and spent my spare time studying Watchtower literature, giving talks, attending 5 meetings a week, 10 hours door knocking a month (minimum) and reporting people to the leadership who were doing non-JW things. Oh yes, that’s another thing, we were supposed to turn in our friends and family if they break any of the rules laid down from the leaders. Such things as being alone with a member of the opposite sex, smoking, saying “happy birthday”, clinking glasses and/or saying “cheers”, getting drunk or even if they’d been seen with non-Jehovah’s Witnesses.

When I got to the age of about 26 I started to notice some things that just weren't right. There was no freedom to question any teaching that was printed in the magazines. Sometimes I’d be reading about subjects that I’m somewhat an expert on and they’d write something that was either completely incorrect, lacked context or they’d misquote someone to make it look like they were saying something else. Also, we were warned not to research the religion on the internet because “apostates” are out there writing lies. But I reasoned, how could a lie damage my spirituality if I have the truth? Lies are easily disproved with evidence. But I was a good JW and obeyed their command. Eventually though, it was their own literature that made me doubt. I knew a few members of the religion who collected the old literature as a hobby. I started doing this too, the aim was actually so that I could know everything about my religion and become an expert “bible teacher” for the organization. The books written pre-1970s and especially the books written by first Watchtower leader Joseph Rutherford were outrageous. I learned of so many failed dates for armageddon, so many failed prophecies and a long history of flip-flopping on what they were teaching as “the truth”. 3 In fact, some of the older books are now considered to be apostasy even though they were written and published by the Watchtower society!

Breaking a rule or committing a “sin” in the cult isn’t like in a Christian religion where you’d ask Jesus for forgiveness and “continue on your way and sin no more” (John 8:11). No, in the cult you would be called to a Judicial Committee where you’re locked in a back room with three elders (always male) and cross examined for a number of hours. THEY decide if you’re sorry, and even if they decide that you are THEY decide if you’re sorry enough. If they don’t think you’re sorry (or sorry enough) you will be disfellowshipped. This is like a death. I’ll explain why in a moment.

My “sin” was that I read a real bible on it’s own without Watchtower literature for about a year and came to the conclusion that Jesus is the mediator between god and man. This is the opposite of what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe. The Watchtower society has told them that Jesus is the mediator only for their leaders and 143,992 other specially “chosen” people that have lived since Jesus day 4 So, I was hauled to a judicial committee, like Martin Luther before me I refused to recant and was disfellowshipped as “an apostate”.

“Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.” Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock p.94, (published by Jehovah’s Witnesses)

Most religions practice excommunication. This religion goes miles further. If you are disfellowshipped from the Jehovah’s Witnesses you’re completely shunned by the entire Jehovah’s Witness population 5 They are to regard you as dead. They will literally pretend that you’re invisible. That includes your own family. Mothers shun their children, children shun their parents, brothers shun their sisters etc. You’re not allowed to attend a disfellowshipped persons funeral nor mourn them if they die.

"We never want to give the impression to outsiders that a disfellowshiped person was acceptable in the congregation when in truth and in fact he was not acceptable but had been disfellowshiped from it." A Christian congregation would not want its good name besmirched by having it associated with any to whom 2 John 9, 10 applied, even in their death." - Watchtower 1977 Jun 1 p.347

This results in tremendous pain and heartache for the disfellowshipped victim because, remember, they’ve had no non-Jehovah’s Witness friends and now they’ve lost everybody they’ve ever known. They’re completely alone in a world they don’t know or understand. Only last month I bumped into an old friend who is a Jehovah’s Witness elder. I hadn't seen him since I left the religion three years ago. I smiled and stuck out my hand and said hello - because I’m an ex-member he reacted with hatred and anger, outraged that I’d spoken to him which forced him to acknowledge me. He would now have to pray for forgiveness for speaking to an ex-member.

How to Treat a Disfellowshipped Person

The reason why the average member would react with hatred is because disfellowshipped members are always portrayed as proud and stubborn in the Watchtower literature:

And worse still, is the ex-Jehovah’s Witness who left because they actually believed the bible over the Watchtower society are portrayed as angry embittered people who are unwilling to reason!

I was told that if I ever wish to return to the cult I’d have to attend Jehovah’s Witness meetings for about 5 years while still being shunned and by living the life of a Jehovah’s Witness. This means still not having non-JW friends, while being shunned by the JWs (so they mean 100% alone until they’d decide to reinstate me). But I’ll never go back. I discovered that the real world is a wonderful place, full of good people and opportunity. Sure, bad people and bad things do exist, but that’s not what the whole world is like.

39

Red Flags identifying Jehovah's Witnesses as a Cult

by Vanderhoven7 in

what are some of the red flags that should alert people to the fact that jehovah's witnesses are a high control and damaging religion?.

one that comes to mind is.

1. one cannot leave jehovah's witnesses with one's reputation intact.

Vanderhoven7

Humorous Additions:

Red flags that you are in a cult:

a. when you see the words "Jehovah" and "Witness" juxtaposed.

b. when you regularly hear the word "pioneer" used as a verb...

c. when you find out that all your pioneer friends shop at Goodwill, too.

d. your car now qualifies for antique plates-- no sense buying a new one when Armageddon is coming- very soon!

e. your Harry Potter Books are kept hidden under a quilt, behind the cat box in the furnace room

f. you casually say "i don't think the governing body is the true channel" the room gets quiet they all look at you pointing and screaming your cover is blown the alien controlled humans are chasing you the last remaining human who still has a human brain.

39

Red Flags identifying Jehovah's Witnesses as a Cult

by Vanderhoven7 in

what are some of the red flags that should alert people to the fact that jehovah's witnesses are a high control and damaging religion?.

one that comes to mind is.

1. one cannot leave jehovah's witnesses with one's reputation intact.

Vanderhoven7

Here is a list we put together a while back on this forum

Red flags that reveal you are in a cult.

1. when the all important question is not: "Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?"....but...."Do you believe in the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" appointed in 1919?"

2. when you will be refused baptism if:

a. you don't believe Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BC whereas all non-JW scholars, all encyclopedias and all history books say this event took place in 587 BC.

b. you, like Cornelius, are a member of the military.

c. you, like Daniel, Joseph and the Ethiopian eunuch hold political office.

d. you don't believe the apostles went door-to-door and that Christians are required to do the same.

e. you reject the idea that the majority of Christians running around today are not part of the New Covenant, do not have a heavenly hope, and are not Spirit-begotten or born again.

f. you don't believe that finding and serving in the right organization (the one with headquarters in Warwick) is necessary to escape eternal destruction at Armageddon.

g. your hair as a male is too long

3. when:

a.window-washing, JC Penny suit-wearing elders insist that THEY carry out and handle cases of child abuse and NOT the trained authorities.

b. your organization holds NGO status in the Beast of Revelation for 10 years running.

c. your leaders have a 100% failure rate interpreting biblical prophecy...except of course when it comes to invisible stuff.

d. you have to surrender your conscience to men.

e. independent thinking is labeled as sin.

f. you are to encourage everyone else to question their religion, but are forbidden to question your own.

g. you are told not to look into the past history, or failed predictions because that would not be " encouraging ".

h. your religion enforces medical quackery such as forbidding vaccinations or organ transplants.

i. you are forbidden to celebrate birthdays because thousands of years ago, somebody died at a birthday party.

j. you are constantly told to wait on Jehovah for answers to your scriptural questions and doubts.

k. You are not allowed to be baptized because your hair is too long (male)

l. victims have to jump thru hoops to expose a pedophile

m. you have shunned your own children for the last 25+ years.

n. you just had to supress the thought that you might be in the wrong religion.

o. a generation can last over 100 years.

p. you are denied life saving medical treatments.

q. you are taught to distrust your own thoughts.

r. you are told to shun your own family.

s. you were told you didn't need college because you would not have time for a career in this system and now you a card carrying member of AARP.

t. you can't figure out the current teachings on which 'fractions of fractions of fractions of blood' are acceptable to Jehovah.

u. you find out that and your wife made love in the wrong way.

4. when all your friends stop speaking to you because you:

a. grew a beard.

b. visit web sites critical of the Watchtower

5. when you will be disfellowshipped (spiritually executed) if

a. you don't agree that rejecting the authority men in Warwick is worthy of excommunication and shunning ex-JW family members.

b. you disagree with any doctrinal position or change handed down from the current governing body in New York.

c. you engage in any behavior that could be labeled as "brazen", and you refuse to "repent" when called before a kangaroo court.

d. you allow your child to have a blood transfusion to save his or her life.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@Scholar

The date 1914 CE is based on solid exegesis.

Solid exegesis would exclude assumptions and speculation and easily convince Bible Scholars of the exegetical soundness of Watchtower methodology and conclusions.

How many non-JW Bible scholars do you know that are convinced from the scriptures that Christ's parousia occurred in October 1914?

Can you run the solid exegesis by me so I can see for myself that 1914 is not established by absolute Bunkum eisegesis.?

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@ Scholar.

Thank you for clarity.

My take is that all three dates are based on eisegesis and that Jehovah's Witnesses would not baptize anyone who does not tow the line completely. Why baptize someone who you would later disfellowship for expressing disagreement on any officially marked dates or doctrines?

Without 1914 Jesus Christ's invisible presence and enthronment remain undetermined and undeterminable.

Without 1918 all the churches are still approved temples of God as they were before 1918. So the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses no longe can claim the status of being the one true religion.

Without 1919 the men taking the lead in Warwick are not the Faithful Slave they are claiming to be and therefore do not have God-given authority and mandate to channel God's truth to mankind and then, of course, the entire house of cards collapses.

So, my take is that to be baptized as a Jehovah’s Witness all three extra-biblical dates and the invisible events associated with them would have to be believed.

Now none of these dates were criteria for Christian baptism before the twentieth century...so why is believing in these dates so critical now if one can be a true Christian while rejecting all three?

And if one is a true Christian without faith in 1914, 1918 and 1919, then it is not only Jehovah's Witnesses that have a scriptural hope of surviving Armageddon after all.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@Scholar,

If my opinion is unsatisfactory then...

You didn't give me your opinion as to whether or not Jehovah Witnesses would baptize such Christians. You only gave your opinion on the likelihood of this happening.

I want to know if, in your opinion, your organization would baptize Christians who don't believe in 1914, 1918 and 1919? Yes or no.... and why or why not, will do.