Vanderhoven7

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Posts by Vanderhoven7

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  21

  Examples of Watchtower flawed interpretation of Bible passages?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  asking jehovah’s witnesses to interpret specific passages is a great way to demonstrate their interpretive abuse.

  got any clear examples?.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Asking Jehovah’s Witnesses to interpret specific passages is a great way to demonstrate their interpretive abuse

  Got any clear examples?
• 
  33

  Do JWs see the org falling apart?

  by ThomasDam21 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have been away from the jw cult for many years.

  i don't have any family i talk to that are in it.

  so i don't know if the jws as a whole are seeing the cult fall apart or if they or the majority of them are head in the sand la la la the end is neigh.

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  Vanderhoven7

  @Journeyman,

  "JWs don't even believe the "soul" is something that can be "inserted" or can "fly up to heaven".

  True. So out of curiosity then, what do Jehovah's Witnesses believe goes to heaven at death of one of the 144,000, if there is no such thing as the soul?
• 
  33

  Do JWs see the org falling apart?

  by ThomasDam21 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have been away from the jw cult for many years.

  i don't have any family i talk to that are in it.

  so i don't know if the jws as a whole are seeing the cult fall apart or if they or the majority of them are head in the sand la la la the end is neigh.

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  Vanderhoven7

  First of all, Jehovah's Witnesses believe so called anointed or born-again Christians go right to heaven when that die. Really! You see, Jesus paid for the sins of those in the New Covenant. They believe the first resurrection began in 1918 and that's when Peter and Paul saw the light of day once again.

  Apparently non-anointed Jehovah's Witnesses who die anticipate to be resurrected in the second resurrection, i.e., of the unjustified, along with just about all unrepemtant adulterors, drag-queens and extortioners who have done evil and granted asylum in an earthly paradise having paid fully for their own sins by dying. They therefore will be subjected to no further punishment for their past sins. Then they all, 8 million JWs and billions of common sinners, will be given a chance to reform and obey Abraham, Issac and Jacob and other Old Testament worthies in the new system of things. If they pass a test at the end of one thousand years, after attaining righteousness, they will be granted eternal life on earth.

  However, if the billions of unrepentant adulterers, drag-queens and extortioners are still alive when the Great Tribulation starts they will be forever destroyed and will not be raised into the New System. Sinners best die before the GT leading to Armageddon.

  So you don't have to die repentant before the GT starts, but you do have to repent afterwards or you will be toast.
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  80

  Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

  what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

  now the wt is saying that's not enough.

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  Vanderhoven7

  @Vidqun

  Oops...I forgot to answer your first question. There are essentially four views on Revelation. Idealist, Historist, Preterist or Partial Preterist and Futurist.

  Idealists look for the lessons being taught, while historists trace the chronological events of history from the first century to the culmination. Preterists see everything in Revelation as fulfilled in century one, while Partial preterists, like myself, tend to relegate most of Revelation to the first century.

  Preterists and Partial Preterists opt for the early writing of Revelation usually early 60s, giving warning of God's judgments coming and the Great Tribulation Christians would experience throughout the Roman Empire under the various emperors. This Tribulation would include the Jewish Wars that Jesus informed Christians to escape from as God's wrath was to be released upon the nation.
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  44

  Apostate Logical Fallacies -- Part 1

  by logansrun in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  let me start out by saying that i would like nothing better than to see the society totally disappear one day and lose its controlling grip upon its members.

  this forum is probably one of the most frequented sites for doubting jws and lurkers so i think it is important to be as skilled at combating the witnesses as is possible.

  not every argument made against someone or something is a good one.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses not answer some questions and change the subject?

  Gilles Gray writes

  They do this for a variety of reasons. Here are a few of the most common.

  Avoiding bad publicity

  For example:-

  It is well known that Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions. When the following question is put to a Jehovah’s Witnesses, the standard response is highly revealing:

  “Would you put your beliefs first and allow your child to die if they required a life saving blood transfusion?”

  If Jehovah’s Witnesses were to be completely candid, they would admit that in a situation where their child required a blood transfusion to save his or her life, and blood was all that was available, even if there were no risks and the procedure was guaranteed to save the child’s life, the JW parents would nevertheless choose to allow their child to die, rather than go against the doctrines of the Watchtower Organisation.

  However, such an admission would be totally shocking, causing outrage and disgust in the minds of most reasonable, rational members of society. The result would be extremely damaging for the reputation of the Watchtower Organisation, with the vast majority of people condemning the fanaticism of this religious belief.

  Jehovah’s Witnesses are acutely aware that if they were to be honest about their position, it would evoke horror and revulsion and therefore damage the public perception of their religion, so they routinely deflect away from the fundamental issues of the topic. Instead, as they have been taught to do, they use deflection tactics such as claiming that blood transfusions can be harmful, arguing that there are now various safer alternatives.

  By switching the focus, Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid condemning themselves and their religion, which they would do if they answered the subject directly and honesty.

  Avoiding the issue

  A similar example is the way Jehovah’s Witnesses react when they are confronted with their previous ‘false teachings’.

  If Jehovah’s Witnesses are challenged with the fact that their Organisation has been forced to make multiple changes to their teachings, when their former doctrines have proved to be untrue, they invariably again immediately deflect away from the issue.

  Mostly they twist the narrative, usually by praising their Organisation for being ‘honest’ enough to change their teachings when they have ‘new information’. However this is merely a lame excuse given to cover for the indisputable fact that many of their past teachings have proved to be untrue. They portray the ‘adjustments’ as a virtue, deliberately ignoring or concealing the fact that the changes were only made as a direct result of their failure, and were required by necessity.

  They then deflect the focus away from the failings of their religion, by pointing the proverbial finger at other denominations, condemning them for retaining ‘false teachings’ over many years, claiming that other faiths are too arrogant and proud to change.

  This argument allows Jehovah’s Witnesses to completely sidestep the issue of reconciling their own ‘false teachings’ by shifting the focus of attention onto the ‘false’ doctrines of rival denominations.

  Similar flawed defences are very commonly used by JWs. They are under the misapprehension that highlighting the false teachings of other religions is, in some undefined way, evidence that their own religion must therefore be true. They also have the mistaken impression that the fact that other Christian religions teach ‘false doctrines’, somehow diminishes the guilt of the Watchtower for doing the same.

  Jehovah’s Witnesses fail to acknowledge that the ‘false beliefs’ of other denominations do not in any way minimise the fact that they too are guilty of promoting ‘false teachings’, and that they are therefore equally as condemned.

  It is truly staggering how many times you see Jehovah’s Witnesses making this false argument. Just a basic understanding of logical fallacies would disabuse them of such absurd and irrational arguments.

  Avoiding facing the fact that they lack sufficient evidence for their convictions

  This last example is also extremely common, and happened in my recent exchange with JW apologist Andrew Shaw.

  The link can be found here.

  One of the most ‘compelling’ claims which convinces Jehovah’s Witnesses that theirs is the only true religion, is their assertion that uniquely, their beliefs are wholly based on the bible. They propose that the bible translates itself, and therefore, having extensively studied the scriptures, they proudly proclaim that their teachings are in fact, those found in the bible.

  From the perspective of a JW, as far as compelling evidence goes, there is no finer argument to prove beyond a doubt, that they are the true religion.

  However, this assumption is clearly based on faulty reasoning.

  The contradiction to their argument is the fact that all of the Watchtower’s former, now discarded teachings were also at the time, confidently declared to be ‘from the scriptures’. These former teachings were taught as bible truth with precisely the same conviction as are the current beliefs.

  Logic dictates that merely claiming that one’s beliefs are ‘from the bible’ does not verify that those teachings are correct.

  This clearly leaves Jehovah’s Witnesses with no sure means of knowing whether their current teachings are true or not. All their current beliefs could in future be subject to being replaced with ‘progressive understanding’ (otherwise known as ‘new light’).

  When Andrew Shaw was confronted with this obvious contradiction to his position, he decided to ignore the question by arguing that the current ‘understanding’ is more convincing than the one previously taught by the Watchtower. He then deflected our exchange into a discussion over which of two ‘bible based’ explanations seemed the most plausible.

  This allowed Andrew to avoid the question being put to him regarding by what means he could be certain that the current teaching on the subject in question is anymore provable than the previous one. Merely asserting that one is more convincing than the other completely failed to address the question.

  Andrew decided to repeatedly avoid directly answering the question, because he knew that if he had answered honestly, it would compromise his position as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He would have to concede the point that the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be considered true merely because they are based on the bible. He would also be forced to acknowledge that he lacked sufficient evidence for his beliefs. Not a comfortable position for a loyal JW.

  Wishing to avoid facing this reality, Andrew chose the logical fallacy of circular reasoning to defend his position (arguing that the reason he knows the latest teaching is true, is simply because the latest teaching is true). This allowed him to circumvent both the question and the challenge to his position by avoiding the subject altogether.

  JWs focus so much of their energies on an effort to uphold their current theology and prove their religious convictions are true, that they completely neglect to take the time to consider the soundness of their epistemology.

  This leaves them as sitting ducks when it comes to an exchange with an outsider who is able to identify false reasoning and fallacious arguments. They fail to realise that the arguments they present to uphold their beliefs are logically flawed, and also that the beliefs themselves are irrational.

  The only way Jehovah’s Witnesses can survive the onslaught of objective criticism that they are currently faced with is to deliberately choose to avoid examining the flaws in their position. Other than that, their only survival tactic is to avoid answering challenging questions by changing the subject.
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  80

  Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

  what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

  now the wt is saying that's not enough.

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  Vanderhoven7

  @Vidqun,

  Hi. Yes most of the Christians I know hold to the dual fulfillment of Matthew 24 as well. This is not an issue to break fellowship over. There is freedom in Christ to disagree over nonessential doctrines, I.e., those teachings which do not compromise the gospel of Christ or Christian moral instruction.

  We can have great biblical knowledge but if we don't love God and treat our brothers as we would like to be treated, we are just making noise.

  Yes, I believe the parousia will occur, hopefully soon, when Christ will judge the world and separate the wheat from the chaff. At that time, may we all be ready to look our Lord straight in the eye and hear "Well done!"
• 
  80

  Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

  what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

  now the wt is saying that's not enough.

  1. 
  2. 
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  Vanderhoven7

  MATTHEW 24: THE OLIVET DISCOURSE; Parallels: Luke 21:7, Mark 13:4

  CENTRAL QUESTION:

  Is Matthew 24 (verses 1-35) prophecy fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?

  To which generation was Christ referring in Matthew 23:36?

  - If the judicial sentence & prophetic woe of Mat.23:36
  applies to Christ's generation, would not the exact same
  terminology in Mat.24:34 have the same application?

  
  LET'S CONSIDER ALL POSSIBLE GENERATIONAL APPLICATIONS.

  CHRIST COULD HAVE INTENDED BY VERSE 34 THAT:

  a. "all these things" were to happen to the 20th/21st century generation exclusively.

  - Impossible: conversation centers on "these stones"
  which were knocked down in 70 AD.

  - Impossible Lu.21:23-24 states that subsequent to great
  distress, Jews were to be led captive to all nations which
  occurred immediately after the 70 AD destruction.

  
  b. "all these things" were to happen to both Christ's generation and our generation. (dual fulfillment theory)

  • Impossible: -the temple stones are already knocked down.

  • Impossible -Jews are not to be led captive into all
    nations again at Christ's second coming.

  • Impossible -Matt.24:21 precludes dual fulfillment.

  c. "all these things" were to happen to Christ's generation exclusively.

  Possibility only if it can be shown that:

  QUESTION: Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?
• 
  80

  Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

  what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

  now the wt is saying that's not enough.

  1. 
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  Vanderhoven7

  @ Duran

  No, you are deflecting. We are talking about Matthew 24 and the generation that was warned when to flee to the mountains beyond Judea. And you have not answered a single question I asked on the subject.

  If you want to talk Revelation, you might try a scholar like Steve Gregg.
• 
  80

  Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

  what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

  now the wt is saying that's not enough.

  1. 
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• 

  Vanderhoven7

  • Hi Vidqun

    As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3 ESV)
    

    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt. 24:29-31 ESV)

  Here is what Clarke has to say on these verses"

  Verse 29

  Immediately after the tribulation, etc. - Commentators generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened - brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; Ezekiel 32:7, Ezekiel 32:8, etc." Lightfoot.

  In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens: -

  The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9, Isaiah 13:10.

  The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7, Ezekiel 32:8.

  The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.

  And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30, Joel 2:31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth - darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

  The falling of stars, i.e. those meteors which are called falling stars by the common people, was deemed an omen of evil times.

  Verse 30

  Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man - The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

  Verse 31

  He shall send his angels - Τους αγγελους, his messengers, the apostles, and their successors in the Christian ministry.

  With a great sound of a trumpet - Or, a loud-sounding trumpet - the earnest affectionate call of the Gospel of peace, life, and salvation.

  Shall gather together his elect - The Gentiles, who were now chosen or elected, in place of the rebellious, obstinate Jews, according to Our Lord's prediction, Matthew 8:11, Matthew 8:12, and Luke 13:28, Luke 13:29. For the children of the kingdom, (the Jews who were born with a legal right to it, but had now finally forfeited that right by their iniquities) should be thrust out. It is worth serious observation, that the Christian religion spread and prevailed mightily after this period: and nothing contributed more to the success of the Gospel than the destruction of Jerusalem happening in the very time and manner, and with the very circumstances, so particularly foretold by our Lord. It was after this period that the kingdom of Christ began, and his reign was established in almost every part of the world.

  To St. Matthew's account, St. Luke adds, Luke 21:24, They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shalt be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The number of those who fell by the sword was very great. Eleven Hundred Thousand perished during the siege. Many were slain at other places, and at other times. By the commandment of Florus, the first author of the war, there were slain at Jerusalem 3,600, Josephus. War, b. ii. c. 14. By the inhabitants of Caesarea, above 20,000. At Scythopolis, above 13,000. At Ascalon, 2,500. At Ptolemais, 2,000. At Alexandria, 50,000. At Joppa, when taken by Cestius Gallus, 8,400. In a mountain called Asamon, near Sepporis, above 2,000. At Damascus, 10,000. In a battle with the Romans at Ascalon, 10,000. In an ambuscade near the same place, 8,000. At Japha, 15,000. Of the Samaritans, on Mount Gerizim, 11,600. At Jotapa, 40,000. At Joppa, when taken by Vespasian, 4,200. At Tarichea, 6,500. And after the city was taken, 1,200. At Gamala, 4,000, besides 5,000 who threw themselves down a precipice. Of those who fled with John, of Gischala, 6,000. Of the Gadarenes, 15,000 slain, besides countless multitudes drowned. In the village of Idumea, above 10,000 slain. At Gerasa, 1,000. At Machaerus, 1,700. In the wood of Jardes, 3,000. In the castle of Masada, 960. In Cyrene, by Catullus the governor, 3,000. Besides these, many of every age, sex, and condition, were slain in the war, who are not reckoned; but, of those who are reckoned, the number amounts to upwards of 1,357,660, which would have appeared incredible, if their own historian had not so particularly enumerated them. See Josephus, War, book ii. c. 18, 20; book iii. c. 2, 7, 8, 9; book iv. c. 1, 2, 7, 8, 9; book vii. c. 6, 9, 11; and Bp. Newton, vol. ii. p. 288-290.

  Many also were led away captives into all nations. There were taken at Japha, 2,130. At Jotapa, 1,200. At Tarichea, 6,000 chosen young men, who were sent to Nero; others sold to the number of 30,400, besides those who were given to Agrippa. Of the Gadarenes were taken 2,200. In Idumea above 1,000. Many besides these were taken in Jerusalem; so that, as Josephus says, the number of the captives taken in the whole war amounted to 97,000. Those above seventeen years of age were sent to the works in Egypt; but most were distributed through the Roman provinces, to be destroyed in their theatres by the sword, and by the wild beasts; and those under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. Eleven thousand in one place perished for want. At Caesarea, Titus, like a thorough-paced infernal savage, murdered 2,500 Jews, in honor of his brother's birthday; and a greater number at Berytus in honor of his father's. See Josephus, War, b. vii. c. 3. s. 1. Some he caused to kill each other; some were thrown to the wild beasts; and others burnt alive. And all this was done by a man who was styled, The darling of mankind! Thus were the Jews miserably tormented, and distributed over the Roman provinces; and continue to be distressed and dispersed over all the nations of the world to the present day. Jerusalem also was, according to the prediction of our Lord, to be trodden down by the Gentiles. Accordingly it has never since been in the possession of the Jews. It was first in subjection to the Romans, afterwards to the Saracens, then to the Franks, after to the Mamalukes, and now to the Turks. Thus has the prophecy of Christ been most literally and terribly fulfilled, on a people who are still preserved as continued monuments of the truth of our Lord's prediction, and of the truth of the Christian religion. See more in Bp. Newton's Dissert. vol. ii. p. 291,
• 
  80

  Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

  what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

  now the wt is saying that's not enough.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @Vidqun,

  Yes. Exactly.

  In Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus provides answers to more than one question. In Matthew 24:1-35 Jesus deals with His coming (erchomai) in judgment against Jerusalem as predicted in a number of His parables. The disciples were warned not to confuse the two judgments (end of Jerusalem i.e. temple destruction/ with worldwide judgment at the end of the world). He warns the disciples that Jerusalem's judgment would not include the parousia (personal return of Christ) secret or otherwise to rescue them. In contrast, His parousia (second personal coming) at the end of time would not require talk of secret presence, but clear to all worldwide.
  The great tribulation however is a one-time, non-repeatable event in history; a fairly local event affecting the Jews in and around Jerusalem and leading to their death or dispersion among the nations.

  Matthew 24:P29-31 to follow