by liam 80 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I'll leave Revelation to scholars Duran. But do you agree that this generation in the gospels is singularly about Christ's own generation?
LOL! Way to deflect Van.
We are not talking about 'generation', we are talking about there being or not being, a future 42 month said GT after 66-70.
Do you really need scholars to know if the following has happened:
Rev 17:13;13:5,7,10;14:6,7,9-10;7:9,13,14;20:4;19:20,21
Vanderhoven, let's stick to the Gospel of Matthew. Do you mean to tell me, these are happenings of the first century?
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3 ESV)
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt. 24:29-31 ESV)
@Vidqun,
Yes. Exactly.
In
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus provides answers to more than
one question. In Matthew 24:1-35 Jesus deals with His coming
(erchomai) in judgment against Jerusalem as predicted in a number of
His parables. The disciples were warned not to confuse the two
judgments (end of Jerusalem i.e. temple destruction/ with worldwide
judgment at the end of the world). He warns the disciples that
Jerusalem's judgment would not include the parousia (personal return
of Christ) secret or otherwise to rescue them. In contrast, His
parousia (second personal coming) at the end of time would not
require talk of secret presence, but clear to all worldwide.
The
great tribulation however is a one-time, non-repeatable
event in history; a fairly local event affecting the Jews
in and around Jerusalem
and leading to their death or dispersion
among the nations.
Matthew 24:P29-31 to follow
Hi Vidqun
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3 ESV)
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt. 24:29-31 ESV)
Here is what Clarke has to say on these verses"
Verse 29
Immediately after the tribulation, etc. - Commentators generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened - brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; Ezekiel 32:7, Ezekiel 32:8, etc." Lightfoot.
In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens: -
The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9, Isaiah 13:10.
The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7, Ezekiel 32:8.
The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.
And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30, Joel 2:31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth - darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.
The falling of stars, i.e. those meteors which are called falling stars by the common people, was deemed an omen of evil times.
Verse 30
Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man - The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.
Verse 31
He shall send his angels - Τους αγγελους, his messengers, the apostles, and their successors in the Christian ministry.
With a great sound of a trumpet - Or, a loud-sounding trumpet - the earnest affectionate call of the Gospel of peace, life, and salvation.
Shall gather together his elect - The Gentiles, who were now chosen or elected, in place of the rebellious, obstinate Jews, according to Our Lord's prediction, Matthew 8:11, Matthew 8:12, and Luke 13:28, Luke 13:29. For the children of the kingdom, (the Jews who were born with a legal right to it, but had now finally forfeited that right by their iniquities) should be thrust out. It is worth serious observation, that the Christian religion spread and prevailed mightily after this period: and nothing contributed more to the success of the Gospel than the destruction of Jerusalem happening in the very time and manner, and with the very circumstances, so particularly foretold by our Lord. It was after this period that the kingdom of Christ began, and his reign was established in almost every part of the world.
To St. Matthew's account, St. Luke adds, Luke 21:24, They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shalt be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The number of those who fell by the sword was very great. Eleven Hundred Thousand perished during the siege. Many were slain at other places, and at other times. By the commandment of Florus, the first author of the war, there were slain at Jerusalem 3,600, Josephus. War, b. ii. c. 14. By the inhabitants of Caesarea, above 20,000. At Scythopolis, above 13,000. At Ascalon, 2,500. At Ptolemais, 2,000. At Alexandria, 50,000. At Joppa, when taken by Cestius Gallus, 8,400. In a mountain called Asamon, near Sepporis, above 2,000. At Damascus, 10,000. In a battle with the Romans at Ascalon, 10,000. In an ambuscade near the same place, 8,000. At Japha, 15,000. Of the Samaritans, on Mount Gerizim, 11,600. At Jotapa, 40,000. At Joppa, when taken by Vespasian, 4,200. At Tarichea, 6,500. And after the city was taken, 1,200. At Gamala, 4,000, besides 5,000 who threw themselves down a precipice. Of those who fled with John, of Gischala, 6,000. Of the Gadarenes, 15,000 slain, besides countless multitudes drowned. In the village of Idumea, above 10,000 slain. At Gerasa, 1,000. At Machaerus, 1,700. In the wood of Jardes, 3,000. In the castle of Masada, 960. In Cyrene, by Catullus the governor, 3,000. Besides these, many of every age, sex, and condition, were slain in the war, who are not reckoned; but, of those who are reckoned, the number amounts to upwards of 1,357,660, which would have appeared incredible, if their own historian had not so particularly enumerated them. See Josephus, War, book ii. c. 18, 20; book iii. c. 2, 7, 8, 9; book iv. c. 1, 2, 7, 8, 9; book vii. c. 6, 9, 11; and Bp. Newton, vol. ii. p. 288-290.
Many also were led away captives into all nations. There were taken at Japha, 2,130. At Jotapa, 1,200. At Tarichea, 6,000 chosen young men, who were sent to Nero; others sold to the number of 30,400, besides those who were given to Agrippa. Of the Gadarenes were taken 2,200. In Idumea above 1,000. Many besides these were taken in Jerusalem; so that, as Josephus says, the number of the captives taken in the whole war amounted to 97,000. Those above seventeen years of age were sent to the works in Egypt; but most were distributed through the Roman provinces, to be destroyed in their theatres by the sword, and by the wild beasts; and those under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. Eleven thousand in one place perished for want. At Caesarea, Titus, like a thorough-paced infernal savage, murdered 2,500 Jews, in honor of his brother's birthday; and a greater number at Berytus in honor of his father's. See Josephus, War, b. vii. c. 3. s. 1. Some he caused to kill each other; some were thrown to the wild beasts; and others burnt alive. And all this was done by a man who was styled, The darling of mankind! Thus were the Jews miserably tormented, and distributed over the Roman provinces; and continue to be distressed and dispersed over all the nations of the world to the present day. Jerusalem also was, according to the prediction of our Lord, to be trodden down by the Gentiles. Accordingly it has never since been in the possession of the Jews. It was first in subjection to the Romans, afterwards to the Saracens, then to the Franks, after to the Mamalukes, and now to the Turks. Thus has the prophecy of Christ been most literally and terribly fulfilled, on a people who are still preserved as continued monuments of the truth of our Lord's prediction, and of the truth of the Christian religion. See more in Bp. Newton's Dissert. vol. ii. p. 291,
@ Duran
No, you are deflecting. We are talking about Matthew 24 and the generation that was warned when to flee to the mountains beyond Judea. And you have not answered a single question I asked on the subject.
If you want to talk Revelation, you might try a scholar like Steve Gregg.
MATTHEW 24: THE OLIVET DISCOURSE; Parallels: Luke 21:7, Mark 13:4
CENTRAL QUESTION:
Is Matthew 24 (verses 1-35) prophecy fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?
To which generation was Christ referring in Matthew 23:36?
- If the judicial
sentence & prophetic woe of Mat.23:36
applies to Christ's
generation, would not the exact same
terminology in Mat.24:34
have the same application?
LET'S
CONSIDER ALL POSSIBLE GENERATIONAL APPLICATIONS.
CHRIST COULD HAVE INTENDED BY VERSE 34 THAT:
a. "all these things" were to happen to the 20th/21st century generation exclusively.
- Impossible:
conversation centers on "these stones"
which were
knocked down in 70 AD.
- Impossible Lu.21:23-24
states that subsequent to great
distress, Jews were to be led
captive to all nations which
occurred immediately after the 70
AD destruction.
b. "all these
things" were to happen to both Christ's generation and our
generation. (dual fulfillment
theory)
Impossible: -the temple stones are already knocked down.
Impossible -Jews are
not to be led captive into all
nations again at Christ's second
coming.
Impossible -Matt.24:21 precludes dual fulfillment.
c. "all these things" were to happen to Christ's generation exclusively.
Possibility only if it can be shown that:
QUESTION: Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?
No, you are deflecting. We are talking about Matthew 24 and the generation that was warned when to flee to the mountains beyond Judea. And you have not answered a single question I asked on the subject.
LOL! You have no clue to what you are talking about...
Your very first comment on this was:
Absolutely clear that the GB does not know how to interpret scripture. The GT of Matthew 24 occurred and terminated in the first century with the destruction of Jerusalem. The GT was a non-repeatable local event affecting "this people" inhabiting Judea and Jerusalem.
To make it a dual prophecy, is to make Jesus speaking simultaneously, literally to His generation of believers and figuratively to ours. And we are left trying to figure out what praying our flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath means. And what Jerusalem and Judea means and what the mountains mean and what not going home to pick up your jacket when roofing means...etc.
To which I replied:
It does have a future application according to the Bible. But the parts that you are referring to do not apply.
We are talking about the GT pertaining to a future event that leads to Jesus' second coming.
Rev shows that the 42 months living under the 8th king while refusing him, is the future GT that the GC and those that rule with Jesus will come out of.
Also, Thessalonians shows that when Jesus comes, it is during a time of Trib upon those that have faith in him, they are in need of relief.
There is no question according to what the Bible states, GT is future and leads to Jesus coming.
The Bible may just be all BS which in that case none of this will ever come to be, but regardless this is still what the Bible states.
[12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.]
[6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”]
[ 17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? ]
[24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.][ 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]
[ 3 I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.”] [7 When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them.]
[ 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
Vanderhoven, very interesting way at looking at things, very similar to the way the Witnesses interpret the Bible, especially Revelation. What would it be called, historicist interpretation? You view Biblical prophecy as a history lesson albeit imperfect, written up after the fact. Unfortunately, I am a dedicated futurist and it would be next to impossible for me to think along those lines. I see the Bible as the product of the Creator of the universe. The Scriptures inform us of judgment to come. As such He would have provided us with a roadmap, from beginning to the end: “remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’” (Isa. 46:9, 10 ESV).
So when can we expect His judgment to commence? Luke tells us: "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Luke 21:25, 26 ESV)
To that end, I do see dual application of prophecies, which is actually clearly set out in Scripture. For example, dual implementation is indicated when one encounters the phrase “Day of the LORD” (or “Day of Jehovah”) incorporated in the text. The primary fulfillment of the passage is usually localized and time dependent, often taking place in the time of the prophet. But when above phrase crops up, it frequently refers to the ultimate “Day of the LORD,” marking the end of the age (cf. Matt. 24:3 ESV). Whenever the Hebrew noun for “land” (Hebr. ארֶֶ֫ץ) is present, the alternative translation is “earth,” which indicates a universal judgment. Earth in such a case would refer to its human inhabitants (cf. Gen. 11:1). This would then point to a secondary fulfillment. E.g., Is. 2:12, 17, 21; 13:9, 11; 34:1-4; Jer. 25:29-33; Obadiah 1:15. Cf. Rev. 6:12-21; 14:19, 20; 19:19-21.
@Vidqun,
Hi. Yes most of the Christians I know hold to the dual fulfillment of Matthew 24 as well. This is not an issue to break fellowship over. There is freedom in Christ to disagree over nonessential doctrines, I.e., those teachings which do not compromise the gospel of Christ or Christian moral instruction.
We can have great biblical knowledge but if we don't love God and treat our brothers as we would like to be treated, we are just making noise.
Yes, I believe the parousia will occur, hopefully soon, when Christ will judge the world and separate the wheat from the chaff. At that time, may we all be ready to look our Lord straight in the eye and hear "Well done!"
