here is a link to an earlier post:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/242210/1/why-is-the-harlot-not-in-the-lake-of-fire.
it's been some time since i last posted.
You can destroy temples not faith. Is it so hard to believe that people when confronted with adversity recoil in fear? Peter did just that when he denied Jesus. Its likely people will do that when the Harlot falls before the beast.
PS - The cry of 'peace and security' discussed in the November 15th Watchtower that precipitates the demise of the Harlot will happen after a global war.
here is a link to an earlier post:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/242210/1/why-is-the-harlot-not-in-the-lake-of-fire.
it's been some time since i last posted.
Strictly for theologists
here is a link to an earlier post:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/242210/1/why-is-the-harlot-not-in-the-lake-of-fire.
it's been some time since i last posted.
Here is a link to an earlier post:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/242210/1/Why-is-the-Harlot-not-in-the-lake-of-Fire
It's been some time since I last posted. My question that I posed on this forum was answered by a relative who happens to be an elder. To paraphrase in his opinion, all who die during the demise of Babylon the Great who are not true Christians plunge into the lake of fire and sulphur - the eternal second death! He feels that God is in control from the start of the Great Tribulation and therefore everyone (except true Christians) deemed worthy of death is judged for good.
I disagree.
The Governing Body recently published articles that support my opinion that people who die for whatever reason (natural or unnatural) during the ravaging of the Harlot may have the hope of a resurrection. They don't state this outright but here are the relevant highlights:
July 15 2013 Watchtower - "TELL US, WHEN WILL THESE THINGS BE?"
12 Jesus' prophecy about the last days
reveals that he will for the very first time
act as Judge of all nations after the destruction
of false religion . As mentioned
in paragraph 8, some of the events that
will occur during that time are recorded
at Matthew 24:30, 31. When you examine
those verses, you will note that Jesus
there foretells events that are similar
to the ones he mentions in the parable
of the sheep and the goats. For example,
the Son of man comes with glory
and with angels; all tribes and nations
are gathered; those judged as sheep
"lift [their] heads up" because "everlasting
life" awaits them.[4] Those judged as
goats "beat themselves in lamentation,"
realizing that "everlasting cutting-off"
awaits them .-Matt. 25:31-33, 46.
Jesus is judging the living not the dead but wait there is more...
July 15 2013 Watchtower - "LOOK! I AM WITH YOU ALL THE DAYS"
14 During the great tribulation, after
all organized false religion has been destroyed,
former adherents will run for
cover but will find no secure place to
hide . (Luke 23:30; Rev. 6:15-17) Then, realizing
that there is no escape from destruction,
they will weep in desperation
and 'gnash their teeth' in anger. As Jesus
foretells in his prophecy about the great
tribulation, at that dark moment, they
"will beat themselves in lamentation."[5]
-Matt. 24:30; Rev. 1:7.
15 Fourth, pitched into the furnace.
What will happen to the bundles of
weeds? The angels "will pitch them into
the fiery furnace." (Matt. 13:42) That
means complete destruction. Hence,
those former adherents of false religious
organizations will be destroyed during
the final part of the great tribulation, Armageddon. -
Mal. 4:1.
It's clear to me that this hope has a leg to stand on. The second death is reserved for those who die during Armaggedon - the 'interval' alluded to by the Governing Body between the Harlot's demise and Armageddon is when Jesus apparently separates the sheep from the goats. Therefore in my opinion once the 'interval' has started - everyone who dies from that point on will be judged as worthy of the lake of fire and sulphur. Yes the article does not mention the fate of those who die before the separating of the sheep occurs but in my opinion they have said enough.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
will you receive your soul as a spoil?.
18 we need to remember that what jehovah has promised as a spoil is our soul.
even if a few of hisservants perish in the persecution that may come during the great tribulation when the political horns of the wild beast turn against religion, those faithful ones will not really have lost out.
Point taken prologos! I concur that Adam & Eve, Cain, people drowned in the flood, Sodom, Judas and some Pharisees are all in the lake of fire by the time the Great Tribulation starts. However I find it interesting that during times of judgement by God, survival was a sign of divine favour. Noah, Lot, the first century christians (fleeing Rome's attack on Jerusalem) lived and yet the Watchtower society would have us believe that christians can die during the Great Tribulation and still have divine favour. This in my opinion is unprecedented and not in keeping with the salvation theme of the biblical examples in the past. This added to my earlier point that human entities have never been used as a means of executing the second death. Any thoughts?
will you receive your soul as a spoil?.
18 we need to remember that what jehovah has promised as a spoil is our soul.
even if a few of hisservants perish in the persecution that may come during the great tribulation when the political horns of the wild beast turn against religion, those faithful ones will not really have lost out.
Here is a link to a previous thread on Babylon the Great - The Devil is in the Details: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/198811/1/The-Devil-is-in-the-Details
The watchtower in question quotes: '' The annihilation of the most reprehensible part of Babylon the Great will serve as a prelude to the total destruction of that wicked world empire of false religion.''
The Watchtower infers the execution of the ''man of lawlessness'' (christendom) is a sign that Jesus has initiated the Great Tribulation. I speculate that humans who make up christendom killed at this time are not going to Gehenna during this introductory phase of the destruction of Babylon the Great.
will you receive your soul as a spoil?.
18 we need to remember that what jehovah has promised as a spoil is our soul.
even if a few of hisservants perish in the persecution that may come during the great tribulation when the political horns of the wild beast turn against religion, those faithful ones will not really have lost out.
Thanks for feedback. sd-7 you have expanded on my logic - much appreciated. I agree that there is no precedent for human entities executing everlasting judgement on other humans. The bible records instances where God used his servants to execute the wicked but not in an everlasting way - such as when the tribes of Israel subjugated Palestine or Cyrus conquered Babylon - however could this be a new precedent? I would appreciate some more substantiated theological musings to support or refute my theory.
will you receive your soul as a spoil?.
18 we need to remember that what jehovah has promised as a spoil is our soul.
even if a few of hisservants perish in the persecution that may come during the great tribulation when the political horns of the wild beast turn against religion, those faithful ones will not really have lost out.
God’s Word for Us Through Jeremiah
WILL YOU RECEIVE “YOUR SOUL AS A SPOIL”?
18 We need to remember that what Jehovah has promised as a spoil is our “soul.” Even if a few of his servants perish in the persecution that may come during “the great tribulation ” when the political horns of the wild beast turn against religion, those faithful ones will not really have lost out. Their “ soul ” is guaranteed to live again to enjoy “the real life,” in the new world . (Rev. 7:14, 15; 1 Tim. 6:19) We can rest assured, however, that most of God’s servants who prove faithful at that time will come out of the great tribulation. You can be sure that when God brings calamity against the nations, no faithful one will be among “those slain by Jehovah.” —Jer. 25:32, 33.
I have a theory based on my interpretation of watchtower literature above and the New World Translation: People (other than witnesses) killed during the destruction of Babylon the Great may be eligible for a resurrection. For the record I have not been to a meeting in 13 years (never baptised either) but my dad still associates with the organisation and on occasion we engage in theological debates. Maybe this could be new light someday - indulge me please.
God’s Word for Us Through Jeremiah page 112 above states clearly that witnesses could die during the destruction of Babylon the Great. This surprised me until I remembered my pioneer grandfather describing how some older witnesses may die from fright during the Great Tribulation - a notion I dismissed at the time as I felt Jehovah was cheating his servants out of a divine rescue. This may be old light to some of you but when I quoted this watchtower publication to my father he was somewhat dismayed - dare I say disappointed - as were some of my other witness relatives. The thought of dedicating their entire lives to God only to die with the wicked during the Great Tribulation seemed counterintuitive. Let me break it down:
1) God’s Word for Us Through Jeremiah elaborates on watchtower theology implying that all people who die during Armageddon will experience the eternal second death:
[You can be sure that when God brings calamity against the nations, no faithful one will be among “those slain by Jehovah.”—Jer. 25:32, 33.]
2) However it makes clear that some people (witnesses) who die during the initial destruction of Babylon the Great will be resurrected – so the rules regarding final outcomes for the dead for each phase of the Great Tribulation are clearly different!
3) I believe there is the real possibility that people who are not witnesses that are killed when religious institutions are destroyed may be resurrected as part of the unrighteous alongside the righteous (which the watchtower insists will be there followers) – maybe the organisation may concede this someday. After all it gives hope to potentially millions of people for a second chance at life and makes Jehovah less monstrous in my eyes!
Why do I think this? Read the following quote and please indulge me some more:
Revelations chapter 20:10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. New World Translation– BUT WHERE IS THE HARLOT?
Revelations states that the wild beast (Satan’s political system) and the false prophet (( the seventh world power (Anglo-American power)) are in the lake but the harlot (Babylon the Great)– a separate organisation entirely- is not there!
She (Babylon the Great)with all her millions of souls is not in the lake – this may be significant if you agree with my theory!
Satan ultimately is cast into the lake (second death) and he is the god of Babylon the Great so one could argue his demise will be the end of all false religious endeavours in opposition to Jehovah but that only happens at the end of the 1000 year judgement day. Yes Babylon the Great was destroyed with fire and yet she is not in the lake – she couldn’t be there because her God is still alive misleading people during the final,bitter, burning judgement at the end of the 1000 years.
I am not saying that people will build false religious institutions again after Armageddon – the bible clearly states that the infrastructure of false religion (temples, institutions) will be destroyed with fire indefinitely (Rev: 16:17 NWT).
I believe the absence of the harlot from the lake of fire indicates that the humans who make up Babylon the Great (temples are meaningless without worshippers) were never put there to begin with – they died during the Great Tribulation before Armageddon and are eligible for a resurrection. The wild beast represents all humans who politically were in opposition to Jehovah under the banner of their respective kingdoms (countries) – who need I remind you destroyed the harlot! The harlot is portrayed as a separate entity to the wild beast & the false prophet.
I have read the parable of the sheep and the goats in the October 15 th 1995 Watchtower and believe this supports my interpretation of the biblical scripture. The Watchtower by its own admission says Jesus will start his judgement after the start of the Great Tribulation and determine who is worthy of everlasting life – I believe this will only happen at the start of Armageddon.
Your thoughts would be appreciated…
yes most of you in your analysis of the 09/15 wt study our active leader today have missed a golden nugget new prophecy courtesy of the gb.. very discreet but read carefully the highlighted text:.
13 christs presence since 1914 has gone unnoticed by most of earths inhabitants.
(2 pet.
I have some thoughts regarding the King of the North which I will share in another post but their interpretation is interesting. According to the GB the destruction of the vatican will 'furnish concrete proof' that the Great Tribulation has begun. Catholicism is the oldest strain of christendom for which all other denominations arose therefore is it not logical to assume that they would be viewed by the GB as the primary representative for the 'man of lawlessness'?
The general sequence for the Great Tribulation to my understanding involves
2. Interval - yes remember the merchants and kings of the earth mourn her loss!
I) 9 “And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, 10 while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’
II) 15 “The traveling merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of [their] fear of her torment and will weep and mourn, 16 saying, ‘Too bad, too bad—the great city, clothed with fine linen and purple and scarlet, and richly adorned with gold ornament and precious stone and pearl, 17 because in one hour such great riches have been devastated!’ (rev. 18:15-17)
Possibly this happens simultaneously with babylon's destruction but thats not what I recall being taught! Lets face it, religions are more about human beings then temples and if you want to destroy a religion, you need to kill the people who believe in it.
The GB insinuate that many people will die during the demise of Babylon the Great possibly millions or more:
" 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short." (Mat. 24:22)
In other words mankind is culled and the social and economic consequences (economic collapse?)will cause politicians and global business to 'weep'!
3. Armaggedon - whats left of mankind, politically and economically is destroyed.
Thoughts anyone?
yes most of you in your analysis of the 09/15 wt study our active leader today have missed a golden nugget new prophecy courtesy of the gb.. very discreet but read carefully the highlighted text:.
13 christs presence since 1914 has gone unnoticed by most of earths inhabitants.
(2 pet.
Hey there everyone, forgive me if my posts aren't polished yet im learning the ropes
As some of you may suspect I am a former associate of the 'other sheep' . Never baptized though, but discovered my inner party animal at university and never looked back . My daddy has one foot in the door, hence my access to their literature.
Here goes:
"So are you concluding that they are insinuating that there will be a first group detroyed (the baddest of them all---which is?) and then the rest of false religion? So am I understanding this correctly that perhaps the Vatican which you reference, and lets say Baptists and Lutheran's are destroyed first, and then after that the Taoists, and Buddhists and Muslims?"
Yes mamalove you got it!
At the very least according to their interpretation the Vatican goes first then Islam and the rest - read it, they are rather concise. Quiet daring don't you think?
yes most of you in your analysis of the 09/15 wt study our active leader today have missed a golden nugget new prophecy courtesy of the gb.. very discreet but read carefully the highlighted text:.
13 christs presence since 1914 has gone unnoticed by most of earths inhabitants.
(2 pet.
Yes most of you in your analysis of the 09/15 WT study ‘OUR ACTIVE LEADER TODAY’ have missed a golden nugget – new prophecy courtesy of the GB.
Very discreet but read carefully the highlighted text:
13 Christ’s “presence” since 1914 has gone unnoticed by most of earth’s inhabitants. (2 Pet. 3:3, 4) Soon, however, he will make his presence manifest by executing Jehovah’s judgments on the various elements of Satan’s system of things. The destruction of “the man of lawlessness,” the clergy of Christendom, will be an unmistakable “manifestation of his presence.”(Read 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 8.) It will furnish concrete proof that Christ has moved into action as Jehovah’s appointed Judge. (Read 2 Timothy 4:1.) The annihilation of the most reprehensible part of Babylon the Great will serve as a prelude to the total destruction of that wicked world empire of false religion. Jehovah will put it into the hearts of political leaders to devastate this spiritual harlot. (Rev. 17:15-18) That will be
the first part of the “great tribulation.”—Matt. 24:21.
The word ‘prelude’ is interesting for several reasons - here’s why. Over the last century the GB has consistently provided a sequence for The Great Tribulation - the destruction of Babylon (false religion) followed by Armageddon. They have never - until now - specifically stated the sequence for the destruction of Babylon the Great. The word prelude according to wiktionary is an ‘introductory event’. They have prophecied that the destruction of Christendom (Vatican & Christian denominations) ‘man of lawlessness’ will be the prelude or initiation of the first phase of the Great Tribulation followed by ‘the total destruction…of false religion’. Read carefully those scriptures, none of them support the assertion that Christendom will be destroyed first. My point is they have made their own unsubstantiated prediction – a prophecy that we are obliged to hold them too. What do you think?
