I agree Brokeback Watchtower, I am pretty confident the Commission will attempt to notify all those victims that they now have a record of but unfortunately they won't be able to overcome the mentality that many JWs have. Many may talk to their elders about it and will be reminded about all their obligations as a JW, that is, keeping Jehovah's name clean, relying on Jehovah alone to make matters right, to rely on the support of the elders in comforting them, not taking a Brother before the higher authorities and the harm in seeking compensation from the organization as being counter productive, selfish, litigious and worldly. We'll see a re-emphasis of this in upcoming talks and publications.
Listener
JoinedPosts by Listener
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How many of the 1.006 alleged abusers will be investigated by Police?
by Listener inthe commission has the names of 1,006 alleged abusers within australian congregations since 1950. some will have died and others will already have been prosecuted but the branch did not report any of these allegations to police.. the terms of reference for the royal commission is more about redress for the victims but that can include criminal prosecution although they are more focused on financial compensation.. however, now that they have the names of 1,006 potential criminals there is some responsibility to see that they are dealt with criminally.
it appears to be in their authority to have cases followed through by referring them for further investigation.
this is clear because the commissioner has recently reported that to date, they have done so in 493 cases identified within the scope of their commission.
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WT Financial strategy to reduce liability - Create artificial debt!!!!!!
by Viva la Vida insee this letter from the royal commission: .
letter from watchtower australia to governing body regarding transfer of funds between branches.
http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/downloadfile.ashx?guid=61967dc3-2203-4cca-8dc7-cd612c66645e&type=exhibit&filename=wat.0012.001.0023&fileextension=pdf.
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Listener
Just for the record, I am posting extracts from the letter presented by the WTBTS Aust. Branch to the Royal Commission which was addressed to the Head Office.
<<
The legislation applies to non-profit organisations such as charities and religious
organisations. However, “small businesses” are exempt from the operation of the Act. A
business is a “small business” if its annual turnover for the previous year is AUD 3,000,000
(USD 1,500,000) or less. Turnover does not include contributions or donations, but does
include amounts charged to other branches for items supplied by the Australia Branch.
Where funds are transferred without consideration, that is, they are donations or cash
transfers, then those amounts would not be included in the turnover figure......
We now seek your permission to write off all future branch transfers, treating them as
outright donations. In this way we will keep our “turnover” below the threshold and so avoid
the difficulties and obligations that will otherwise apply if we come within the jurisdiction of
this Privacy Act.>>
By their own words, they consider themselves to be a business.
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WT Financial strategy to reduce liability - Create artificial debt!!!!!!
by Viva la Vida insee this letter from the royal commission: .
letter from watchtower australia to governing body regarding transfer of funds between branches.
http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/downloadfile.ashx?guid=61967dc3-2203-4cca-8dc7-cd612c66645e&type=exhibit&filename=wat.0012.001.0023&fileextension=pdf.
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Listener
This is interesting because it means that they identify themselves as a business.
This is the definition of Organization under the Privacy Act 1988 (Aust)
<<PRIVACY ACT 1988 - SECT 6C Organisations
What is an organisation ?
(1) In this Act:
"organisation " means:
(a) an individual; or
(b) a body corporate; or
(c) a partnership; or
(d) any other unincorporated association; or
(e) a trust;
that is not a small business operator, a registered political party, an agency, a State or Territory authority or a prescribed instrumentality of a State or Territory.>>
This is basically stating that you are not considered to be an organization under the Act if you are a small business operator. This is the definition of a small business operator under the same Act
<<PRIVACY ACT 1988 - SECT 6D Small business and small business operators
What is a small business ?
(1) A business is a small business at a time (the test time ) in a financial year (the current year ) if its annual turnover for the previous financial year is $3,000,000 or less.
Test for new business
(2) However, if there was no time in the previous financial year when the business was carried on, the business is a small business at the test time only if its annual turnover for the current year is $3,000,000 or less.
What is a small business operator ?
(3) A small business operator is an individual, body corporate, partnership, unincorporated association or trust that:
(a) carries on one or more small businesses; and
(b) does not carry on a business that is not a small business. >>
Notice that at Paragraph 1 it states that it can only be a small business if it is a BUSINESS in the first instance (and if it's turnover is $3 million or less). That is, it must be a business to begin with before even considering whether it is a small business or not. Therefore the WTBTS Australian Branch are clearly identifying themselves as a business in the letters referred to on this thread.
There is no definition in the act to identify what a Business is therefore it would revert to the common law definition. They might argue that they are only a business in relation to the Privacy Act but they can't because they have to identify as a business (under common law) before they can identify themselves as a small business under the Act.
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How many of the 1.006 alleged abusers will be investigated by Police?
by Listener inthe commission has the names of 1,006 alleged abusers within australian congregations since 1950. some will have died and others will already have been prosecuted but the branch did not report any of these allegations to police.. the terms of reference for the royal commission is more about redress for the victims but that can include criminal prosecution although they are more focused on financial compensation.. however, now that they have the names of 1,006 potential criminals there is some responsibility to see that they are dealt with criminally.
it appears to be in their authority to have cases followed through by referring them for further investigation.
this is clear because the commissioner has recently reported that to date, they have done so in 493 cases identified within the scope of their commission.
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Listener
The Commission has the names of 1,006 alleged abusers within Australian congregations since 1950. Some will have died and others will already have been prosecuted but the Branch did not report any of these allegations to Police.
The terms of reference for the Royal Commission is more about redress for the Victims but that can include criminal prosecution although they are more focused on financial compensation.
However, now that they have the names of 1,006 potential criminals there is some responsibility to see that they are dealt with criminally. It appears to be in their authority to have cases followed through by referring them for further investigation. This is clear because the Commissioner has recently reported that to date, they have done so in 493 cases identified within the scope of their Commission. Just to be clear, that is 493 cases overall and not confined to the JW religion.
It is quite possible that they are waiting until their final conclusions of the current case hearing of the JW religion before they recommend further investigation of JW individuals.
The fact remains that neither the organization or the individuals would know if or who will be investigated from the list of 1,006 individuals.
There is so much coming out of this commission but I am wondering what sort of effect this knowledge has on both the organization and accused abusers. It is going to affect the congregations and they will not be able to ignore it even though many are avoiding news reports.
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Australian kingdom hall bomber from 1980's arrested!!
by Witness 007 infinally the casula kingdom hall bomber who killed one and injured 13 is arrested in 2015!!
d.n.a evidence convicted him.
the hall was totally destroyed in i think 1983.
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Royal Commission convened for now, but Jackson is an asshole
by umbertoecho ini have just finished listening to this man jackson.
i remember him well.
he is twisting things around as much as he is allowed.
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Listener
A real cool and a company man. He demonstrated that he couldn't even think for himself.
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The Australian Royal Commission hearings on the JWs handling of child abuse begins here in the US later today. It will be streamed.
by AndersonsInfo inthe royal commission hearing starting on monday, july 27, 2015 - australian day and date - (and it could go on until august 7th depending on how many witnesses testify) regarding jehovah's witnesses handling of child abuse is supposed to be streamed.. it could be that the hearing will only be audio not video although we were informed it will be streamed.
we'll find out in a few hours.. i live in the central time zone of the us and right now here it is sunday, 3: 45 pm.
in sydney, australia, it is 15 hours ahead of us.
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Listener
There's a 25 page report available now with the opening submission from 'the senior council assisting'.
You can access by going to the Royal Commission link and it is under the Opening Address.
Most notable from this address is the following statement
70. This case study will consider whether the practice of the Jehovah’s Witnesses Church of not reporting allegations of child sexual abuse to secular authorities potentially exposes members of the Jehovah’s Witness Church to criminal liability for concealment of serious indictable offences under s 316 of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) and failure to disclose sexual offences against minors under s 327 of the Crimes Act 1958 (Vic). The case study will consider the interaction of these offences with the confessional privilege provided for in s 127 of the Evidence Act 1995 (Cth), and replicated in legislation in force in New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania and the Northern Territory.
In many ways this Commission is able to demand so much more from the organization than any Court Case that they may face. We've seen what happened just recently when the lawyers requested specific information and documents, they haven't been able to do this here and can't simply ignore the requests..
They've also been able to question the JWs in a way that would not be seen in court. From what I saw at no stage was there any JW lawyer able to step in and say that any line of questioning was unreasonable.
The Commission goes even further by asking the JWs what they personally feel about a situation, policy or matter and guilt them when it is clear that there procedures have been inadequate.
It is proving to be a moral blood bath for the organization.
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The Australian Royal Commission hearings on the JWs handling of child abuse begins here in the US later today. It will be streamed.
by AndersonsInfo inthe royal commission hearing starting on monday, july 27, 2015 - australian day and date - (and it could go on until august 7th depending on how many witnesses testify) regarding jehovah's witnesses handling of child abuse is supposed to be streamed.. it could be that the hearing will only be audio not video although we were informed it will be streamed.
we'll find out in a few hours.. i live in the central time zone of the us and right now here it is sunday, 3: 45 pm.
in sydney, australia, it is 15 hours ahead of us.
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Listener
Further reporting on current questioning of Max Horley regarding a case he dealt with in 1992.
The elder, Max Horley. says that the abused no longer needs to be interviewed with the abuser in certain cases and this occurred sometime in the 90s In similar vain he says that he did not think that this was inappropriate at the time of the case he heard, he didn't think about it and was just following directions but understands now why there was a need for change.
Two witnesses - the elder admits that it is a very sad situation for the abused who cannot present two witnesses to take the matter further on a congregational basis. He appreciates the need for it to be investigated fully even though there are not two witnesses where there is a victim and an abuser. The interviewer reads out the scripture in Duet. about the two witness rule and asks the elder if he also believes that the sinner should be stoned to death today.
Support for the victim - the elder says there were publications in place to help the victim. He is asked again about the accuser not having to face the abuser but he cannot provide any support for this procedure.
Later on the elder finally admits that if a JC was formed then it is still currently the situation that the abused will still be present at this meeting with the accuser.
The elder says that they discourage JWs not to have close friendships outside of the JWs and that the abused should not talk to people outside of the congregation although she could confide in someone within the congregation such as a mature sister or elder and this was to limit the gossip. The mature sister would have to accept this in confidence.
He confesses that he did not mean to come across as harsh or that there was no where to go, if that is what she felt..
The case that this elder with did not go any further because of the application of the two witness rule He stated that he had no reason to disbelieve the abused in his case but needed a confession from the abuser. The abuser had been asked to stand down and was announced as being removed as an elder. The elder states that those concerned would know why he was removed and all others would know there was some good reason.
The elder accepts that the police have better facilities to investigate matters but he states that there was very little information at the time instructing how to deal with the matter and going to the police was not mentioned. He says if she wanted to go to the police he would not have stopped her.
A letter had been written by the elders about the accused abuser and the only recommendation was that the elder should stand down. The elder says this action was taken because they were concerned about the proper functioning of the organization and probably not about the protection or support of the victim.
The abuser had later on been appointed as an elder in a different congregation and this elder said he had nothing to do with it or was not consulted and was surprised at the time.
Apparently the Branch asked this elder for his recollections on this case in 2015 and to put it in writing to them. He thinks it may have been because of the Royal Commission. The Legal Department BO had asked him to address this letter to the Service Desk BO.
He states that as a member of the congregation the abused was being protected but as a victim she was not as the aim was to protect the congregation against the abuser.
Sorry that's all I can do for the moment.
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The Australian Royal Commission hearings on the JWs handling of child abuse begins here in the US later today. It will be streamed.
by AndersonsInfo inthe royal commission hearing starting on monday, july 27, 2015 - australian day and date - (and it could go on until august 7th depending on how many witnesses testify) regarding jehovah's witnesses handling of child abuse is supposed to be streamed.. it could be that the hearing will only be audio not video although we were informed it will be streamed.
we'll find out in a few hours.. i live in the central time zone of the us and right now here it is sunday, 3: 45 pm.
in sydney, australia, it is 15 hours ahead of us.
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Listener
An elder was just questioned about the handling of a child abuse case that he was involved in. Some very good questions were asked and at times the elder didn't know what to say.
He was asked if he had thought of reporting the incident/s to police. He said no. On further questioning he advised it wasn't procedure back then and it hadn't entered his mind. He did not know why it hadn't entered into his mind.
The elder said that the way they handle abuse cases is very different now to what it used to be.
He was asked if he had kept notes and he said yes. He was asked where were they and he said they had been destroyed and only brief notes were kept on file. He was asked why the notes were not kept and the elder said that they didn't want the information to find it's way into unwanted hands, for instance, the elders wives or the congregation.
He advised that they do now encourage the abused to take it to police. when asked how they do this he couldn't answer and said he didn't know.
This is excellent because regardless of what the society says this will help the elders to think morally regarding the issue and they probably will encourage parents to take new cases to police.
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BBC radio Prog " The Report" this week on JW Child Abuse
by Phizzy inhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0612hjs.
to be broadcast at 20.00 hrs british summer time this thursday, available on bbc i-player shortly after broadcast..
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Listener
This is impressive, so much is covered in such a short time.