Posts by Listener

9

"Faithful slave" can you READ the Bible - let alone EXPLAIN it?

by The Searcher in

an org myth debunked - by the book they claim to have a better understanding of, than other religions.wt14 11/15 p. 30 - who are the two witnesses mentioned in revelation chapter 11?.

"......the account refers to god’s anointed ones who took the lead during a difficult time of testing.. so in the fulfillment of revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of god’s kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached "in sackcloth" for three and a half years.

at the end of their preaching in sackcloth, these anointed ones were symbolically killed when they were thrown into prison for a comparatively shorter period of time, a symbolic three and a half days.

Listener

Who imprisoned Rutherford and friends? I thought it was the US Government, not the League of Nations. It would seem also that the United Nations has proven to be helpful to the Watchtower over the years, through providing library access to advocating freedom of religion.

37

More speculation on Kingdom Hall closers and money grabbing?

by Crazyguy in

there continues to be more and more rumors of more halls being sold off some even taking the first offer.

the borg trying to get thier bond money back from the court in san diego asap and there's been elders meetings about this consolidation.

my questions is why after selling off all this real estate in new york for over a billion dollars are they still acting like thier broke?

Listener

Their property is like their doctrines - all over the place.

32

2017 Yearbook - Still Waiting

by berrygerry in

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t06777k65p11e53/20160521e.pdf?dl=0.

may 21, 2016. we are pleased to inform you that electronic versions of the annual items for 2017 will be made available for download on jw.org beginning in october of this year.

this includes examining the scriptures daily—2017 and the 2017 yearbook of jehovah’s witnesses.

Listener

There are probably too many people (and Branches) involved in gathering the numbers worldwide for them to be able to fake them.

3

117 Adams Street, Brooklyn -- Mean anything to you? I just received my order from ....

by FatFreek 2005 in

jw
friends

that former watchtower address caught my eye at the bottom of my received order.

etsy.com has apparently bought that large brooklyn structure and it sells sundry items.. i'd bought some dishwasher safe labels for us, my sis in law, and a sweet neighbor of ours.

the generous neighbor does lots of sharing of her dished and bowled goodies with others and those paper mailing labels she puts on the dish bottoms are defenseless in our dishwasher..

Listener

FatFreek, if those labels don't work, I've seen others use quality bandaids with permanent markers.

114

"The G.B. is neither inspired nor infallible"

by smiddy in

that admission in the feb.17 ,study edition of the watchtower , " who is leading gods people today ?

" "the governing body is neither inspired, nor infallible, therefore it (they/we) can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction .".

have the many jehovahs witnesses past and present who have lost their lives by refusing blood transfusions due to the prohibition on blood tranfusions by jehovahs witnesses really got the sense of this statement ?.

Listener

Smiddy - I wonder how many who claim to be of the Anointed class ,could come together as a united group to challenge the existing Governing Body members to their authority to preside over the Christian Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses.

This happened in Ray Franz's day but they were stamped out before it became an issue. It also happened in Rutherford's day and he was triumphant, bringing along with that, his own unique teachings. It is reasonable to expect this to happen again and even more so in these tumultuous times within the org., loosing both members and money.

It could even be possible for those higher up in the organization to come up with a completely different understanding of anointed ones. Ray Franz believed that this should apply to all JWs and all should partake. I don't think it would be difficult to change these current biblical interpretations. For instance, those being chosen as Kings/Priests in heaven could apply only to Jesus apostles as it was to them that he spoke of this promise in the first place. Also in relation to the FDS being promised authority over all Jesus' belonging as a reward, it could apply to an earthly authority. This would mean that any of those who are not 'anointed' (under the current understanding of that word by the GB) at the top could challenge the authority.

And what has always puzzled me is , why a person who claims to be of the Anointed class has no say whatsoever in their local congregations ,no priveledges and is generally viewed as suspect.

It makes no sense if these anointed ones are considered to be working together as the body of Christ, a role far superior than any other. It would seem it has all been about the reigning in of the power structure but as hard as they may try, there are always vulnerabilities ready to be taken advantage of by those who have the capabilities and support.

Keeping in mind they are not inspired nor spirit directed . ....they can err.

And the question is whether it goes without discipline or leadership replacement with the aim to correct so many wrongs, by those that really believe it is God's earthly organization.

114

"The G.B. is neither inspired nor infallible"

by smiddy in

that admission in the feb.17 ,study edition of the watchtower , " who is leading gods people today ?

" "the governing body is neither inspired, nor infallible, therefore it (they/we) can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction .".

have the many jehovahs witnesses past and present who have lost their lives by refusing blood transfusions due to the prohibition on blood tranfusions by jehovahs witnesses really got the sense of this statement ?.

Listener

How diﬀerent those faithful kings were from the leaders of other nations, men who were guided by human wisdom and short sighted strategy! Under Canaanite leadership,people did detestable things, which included incest, homosexuality, bestiality, child sacriﬁce,and gross idolatry.(Lev.18:6, 21-25).....Not all the kings who ruled God’s ancient people followed God’s instructions. Those who did not obey Jehovah refused to accept the guidance of God’s holy spirit,his angels,and his Word.In some cases, Jehovah disciplined or replaced those leaders.(1Sam.13:13,14) In his own due time,he appointed someone who would be superior to any of the men he had used thus far.

The whole article is strange but I wonder why they chose to include this information about leaders of God's people. It demonstrates that 'Jehovah's chariot' does not stand still and will take action if his earthly leaders were not doing a good job and were either disciplined or replaced.

This leaves open the idea that if the current GB/FDS has not been demonstrating wisdom and using short sighted strategies (e.g. child abuse policies leading to shame and costly payouts, the generation teaching, unwillingness to radically revamp current teachings, allowing apostasy to surface as a serious problem, the high rate amongst JWs on dependency of prescription medication, etc.). Notice that the above Watchtower quote states that under Caananite leadership detestable things occurred, it does not say that these leaders advocated such bad behaviour but just that it occurred under their watch. And the immediate sentence prior to this comment includes the words wisdom and short sighted strategy. IMHO using the term 'short sighted strategy' is unusual and on checking the CD Library, it has never been used before.

Consider what the GB's short sighted strategy has resulted in today. The child abuse situation is obvious. Changing the publications being offered to a donation arrangement has resulted in a financial loss. Their current financial situation has resulted in serious cutbacks, even to the extent of reducing special pioneers and missionaries.

Are they introducing the idea that If God replaced or disciplined leaders in the past, there is every reason to think that he would do the same today?

Although there is just a suggestion of discipline/replacement in this issue, I don't recall when they have done this in the past.

It has been mentioned before that there is probably a group of awake JWs in the organization that are able to print such obvious negative comments that could be applied directly to the org. and it goes without notice by the GB and other reviewers before it goes into print. It has also been mentioned here, although not for some time, that there are a core group at the top that want to grab authority from others at the top (possibly the legal department)

Whatever the case, we have seen a huge amount of change already take place, and further changes taking place. It is certainly interesting times.

But if they are going to get rid of a number of core doctrines, including 1914 then a way to do it would be with a new leadership and for those at the top that want to see these changes there is no option but to do this because the current GB are holding tight these undefendable ideas.

Their problems have become so immense that they cannot continue to ignore them.

114

"The G.B. is neither inspired nor infallible"

by smiddy in

that admission in the feb.17 ,study edition of the watchtower , " who is leading gods people today ?

" "the governing body is neither inspired, nor infallible, therefore it (they/we) can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction .".

have the many jehovahs witnesses past and present who have lost their lives by refusing blood transfusions due to the prohibition on blood tranfusions by jehovahs witnesses really got the sense of this statement ?.

Listener

The Governing Body makes important decisions collectively. How so? The members meet weekly, which fosters close communication and unity. ....And each member of that body views himself, not as the leader of his fellow brothers, but as one of the “domestics,” fed by the faithful slave and subject to its oversight.

I'm glad they were able to explain that but it leaves them with a problem. They state that the individual GB members are domestics but when they make decisions as a group they are the FDS. Under this arrangement then it means that any of the other individual anointed, who are also domestics, can group together with other anointed and come to their own decisions collectively and be acting as the FDS. If the current GB group sees themselves as being bibliclly established then how could they argue that another group that establish themselves by the same method is not scriptural and as domestics would then be required to submit themselves to this other group?

What would be even a bigger dilema is if this second group were able to argue that their decisions were more biblically correct. This might include the end times commencing at a future date, birthdays/mothers day etc. are okay, Jesus as mediator for all JWs, all are part of the New Covenant, all should partake, blood transfusions are a conscience matter etc.

The WTBTS are by its own constitution, required to follow that group that adhere to the bible. The second group could rightly claim authority.

What it means is that under the JW system, it is not just the GB that is responsible for ensuring that they establish doctrines and procedures in accordance with the Bible but also the rest of the anointed (who were demoted to domestics in 2013 and as individuals are still equal to the individual GB members) still have a responsibility to correct the current GB even though it requires them to do this as a group.

The point is, that by calling themselves 'domestics' leaves themselves open to being usurped and the WTBTS has to decide which group is more biblical.

114

"The G.B. is neither inspired nor infallible"

by smiddy in

that admission in the feb.17 ,study edition of the watchtower , " who is leading gods people today ?

" "the governing body is neither inspired, nor infallible, therefore it (they/we) can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction .".

have the many jehovahs witnesses past and present who have lost their lives by refusing blood transfusions due to the prohibition on blood tranfusions by jehovahs witnesses really got the sense of this statement ?.

Listener

They demand that their followers accept their doctrines as truth, knowing that they are not always right. By doing so they are demanding that men follow their ideas contrary to the Bible's admonition.

9

WTBTS "Anointed" Resurrection Fallacy

by The Searcher in

based on the following statements of the wtbts, the first resurrection began in 1918, is ongoing, and ceases when the living anointed are taken to heaven - just before armageddon..

(w88 10/15 p. 12 par.

13) "....according to all the evidence, those of the anointed who had already died faithful began to be resurrected to their promised place in the heavenly sanctuary starting in 1918.".

Listener

w07 1/1 When does the first resurrection occur? There is strong evidence that it is now under way.

They may decide that the first resurrection hasn't begun.

w7612/15 To those who are doers of God’s will on earth to the end, his promise will be fulfilled. The “dragon’s” all-out efforts to keep the remnant from gaining entrance into the heavenly kingdom are doomed to failure. Revelation 20:4-6 assures us that these doers of God’s will who are yet needed to complete the full membership of 144,000 Kingdom joint heirs will endure in faithfulness to the death, that they may know the happiness of having a part in “the first resurrection.” God’s Messianic kingdom will not be lacking even one of its foreordained number of Christ’s joint heirs.

This seems to indicate that they believe these scriptures are referring to the remnant, not all of the 144,000. As to why, they do not say.

29

So I just watched Jackson's ARC interview...

by schnell in

thank you, everybody here, for introducing me to this.

no, no i had not heard of this.

child abuse issues have been roundly dismissed as apostate attacks in the congregations i've attended in the last decade.

Listener

Great observations Schnell.

Even the background to his appearance is appalling. The Branch coordinator tried to play down his role and the had their lawyer blindsight the Commission. Fortunately, there were a number of ex JWs able to communicate with the Commission whilst it was in progress and inform them of the true situation. The Commission initially took the word of the JWs and were not going to call Jackson up but when they understood his role, they decided his testimony could be beneficial.

This is partly the reason why Jackson downplayed his role as a GB member.

Then there is the Case where G. Losch was subpoened to appear in a Child Abuse Case. He refused to appear and lodged a Declaration which included this statement

I do not answer to Watchtower. .... Watchtower does not have, and never has had, any authority over me." - Gerrit Lösch in a signed Declaration submitted to the Superior Court of the State of California, County of San Diego, dated February 4th, 2014

The whole Declaration can be found here -
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5202072156766208/gerrit-losch-hypocritical-let-your-light-shine-talk-given-after-his-refusal-let-his-light-shine-before-caesar-court-room