Posts by Listener

41

147th Gilead prt. 3 - this could stumble people

by neat blue dog in

during gerrit loesch's talk just released, he goes on a long list of the false end times predictions throughout the millennia.

i didn't expect it, but then he goes into the precursors to the bible students who, when their dates failed, changed christ's presence to have happened 'invisibly'.

then it goes right into the jws, and he reads the quote from millions now living will never die about how we can 'confidently expect' the resurrection in 1925, and then the life everlasting book that predicted 1975. of course, he doesn't say how it's still going on, namely with the overlapping generation and its' accompanying convoluted chart, but still, this is more than they've ever said on the subject, especially recently.. it almost sounds like a forced statement, to address any backlash from people reading 'apostate lies' online, because he also says how the gb 'humbly' admitted mistakes, referencing the non-apology after 1975 that disturbed raymond franz.

Listener

It's a long talk to transcribe but it might be worth transcribing the lot because of all the nonsense he says.

41

147th Gilead prt. 3 - this could stumble people

by neat blue dog in

during gerrit loesch's talk just released, he goes on a long list of the false end times predictions throughout the millennia.

i didn't expect it, but then he goes into the precursors to the bible students who, when their dates failed, changed christ's presence to have happened 'invisibly'.

then it goes right into the jws, and he reads the quote from millions now living will never die about how we can 'confidently expect' the resurrection in 1925, and then the life everlasting book that predicted 1975. of course, he doesn't say how it's still going on, namely with the overlapping generation and its' accompanying convoluted chart, but still, this is more than they've ever said on the subject, especially recently.. it almost sounds like a forced statement, to address any backlash from people reading 'apostate lies' online, because he also says how the gb 'humbly' admitted mistakes, referencing the non-apology after 1975 that disturbed raymond franz.

Listener

Immediately after discussing their 'wrong expectations' Loesch states the following

Nevertheless, there is no reason for us to be shaken in faith - God's promises

I would think setting failed dates, being deceitful and at the very least, being disappointed with the FDS would be a valid reason for being shaken in the faith, the JW religion.

Having faith in God's promises do not require Christians to accept an organization such as this. In fact, the bible admonishes us not to.

rather, AS A CONSEQUENCE, we are all moved to make a closer examination of the scriptures regarding this matter of the day of judgement

As a consequence, all JWs should be moved to make a closer examinations of the JW organization and their teachings that they claim are based on the scriptures and which they are required to accept and teach others or face shunning.

In doing so, we find that the important thing is not the date, what is important is keeping ever in mind that there is such a day and it's getting closer and will require an accounting on the part of all of us. Peter said that Christians should rightly awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah.

The organization has focused on dates and it was important therefore the organization has been misleading them as to what their real focus should be.

There's a good reason to remain in expectation, Jesus told us to do so. In this regard Jehovah's organization has set an example, although sometimes promoting wrong expectations our publications have consistently exhorted us to wait and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah and to fix our hopes in God's new world.

He humbly claims that they have set an example even though they sometimes have not. Of course the publications have said to wait and keep Armageddon in mind, you fool, because it hasn't happened yet.

He then proceeds to talk about 1914 and the last days.

41

147th Gilead prt. 3 - this could stumble people

by neat blue dog in

during gerrit loesch's talk just released, he goes on a long list of the false end times predictions throughout the millennia.

i didn't expect it, but then he goes into the precursors to the bible students who, when their dates failed, changed christ's presence to have happened 'invisibly'.

then it goes right into the jws, and he reads the quote from millions now living will never die about how we can 'confidently expect' the resurrection in 1925, and then the life everlasting book that predicted 1975. of course, he doesn't say how it's still going on, namely with the overlapping generation and its' accompanying convoluted chart, but still, this is more than they've ever said on the subject, especially recently.. it almost sounds like a forced statement, to address any backlash from people reading 'apostate lies' online, because he also says how the gb 'humbly' admitted mistakes, referencing the non-apology after 1975 that disturbed raymond franz.

Listener

Here's a link to a copied version on Youtube. It's a little easier to watch it there as you have the abilbity to speed it up which you can't do on JW org.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz-q3YI5d88

At around the 13 minute mark he starts talking about the wrong expectations that Brothers had about 1975 and quotes from a Watchtower. In part Loesch says

"'statements made then and thereafter that this was only a poss-i-bil-ity, unfortunately, however' says the Watchtower 'along with such cautionary information there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more a probability than a mere possibility, it is to be regretted' ADMITS THE WATCHTOWER 'it is to be regretted that these latter statements APPARENTLY overshadowed these cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated'
In its issue of July 15 1976 the Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date stated 'If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoints seeing that the word, ah, that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises, In saying 'anyone' the Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah's Witnesses hence including ones having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the build up of hopes centered on that date' end of quote. So very humbly the Watchtower admitted that, June 15, 1976

For the most part Loesch is simply repeating what was written in the Watchtower but he ends it with stating that it is the Watchtower that has been humble in admitting that it was disappointed individuals and individuals who were involved in the publication of the information that had failed and was deceitful.

This is nothing new but the big difference is that we have a Governing Body member who is part of their 'faithful and discreet slave' pointing the finger at those involved in Watchtower publications. He paints a division here between the FDS and those involved in the publication of this false information.

Who was involved in the publication of this information? We can't be sure but it appears that Fred Franz had a big part. But if we take their confession strictly as it is written then it includes all the Bethel workers involved in writing, printing and distributing those publications. Also, anyone donating to the Watchtower Organization could be said to have a hand in being involved. That's a lot of individuals when the blame should be humbly placed on the FDS. He had the opportunity to do this but chose not to.

It's not the Watchtower, which is just a thing or tool, that should be admitting anything but it is the FDS who was responsible for directing others to publish the nonsense.

41

147th Gilead prt. 3 - this could stumble people

by neat blue dog in

during gerrit loesch's talk just released, he goes on a long list of the false end times predictions throughout the millennia.

i didn't expect it, but then he goes into the precursors to the bible students who, when their dates failed, changed christ's presence to have happened 'invisibly'.

then it goes right into the jws, and he reads the quote from millions now living will never die about how we can 'confidently expect' the resurrection in 1925, and then the life everlasting book that predicted 1975. of course, he doesn't say how it's still going on, namely with the overlapping generation and its' accompanying convoluted chart, but still, this is more than they've ever said on the subject, especially recently.. it almost sounds like a forced statement, to address any backlash from people reading 'apostate lies' online, because he also says how the gb 'humbly' admitted mistakes, referencing the non-apology after 1975 that disturbed raymond franz.

Listener

The interesting part is that Loesch did not blame the GB, he blamed the Watchtower.

15

Why is he spiritual Israel not innumerable?

by Salomo in

please share this question.

why is he spiritual israel not innumerable?.

the literal seed of abraham was innumerable (heb 11:12; gen 22:17; 1ki 4:20).

Listener

they claim that they are willing to correct their mistakes with new light, there is only so far that they will go.

Changing doctrine to make the other sheep/great crowd Spiritual Israelites would cause too many issues that they would not know how to deal with, without losing a lot of members.

For instance, they would have to partake of the emblems and for decades they have been warned by the Watchtower that they are not worthy.

Overall, it would mean that they other sheep has never worshipped Jehovah correctly. They are currently only Gods friends, not his sons and daughters.

60

Rec'd a letter from my Dad - need some advice...

by Fadeaway3pointer in

fader here - last meeting was in autumn 2005. lurker on this site and others.

not one to get all controversial.. typical situation, pretty much a born in and left the church at age 38 and never looked back.. i'm 53 now, parents getting older - late 70s but very active, dad is still an elder.. parents, in laws, brother and brother-in-law still uber active jws.. my family (wife and 2 adult children) out since 2005.. we have stayed close to our parents - we have treaded religion lightly and have had a pretty good relationship and have kept our personal lives and beliefs/opinions separated from them.

this was intentional - as we love them and do not want anything to cause shunning since they are getting older and want to be there for them and we respect their beliefs.. got this letter today.

Listener

Unfortunately there's nothing you can do except going along with their request to have no contact with them.

It doesn't matter that you didn't celebrate Christmas this year, they may have found out about the present giving from past years.

Are they still going to be talking to your adult children? You will want to talk to them, show them the letter and brochure. They may be the outraged ones.

Having been shunned by my father, it was never outrage that I felt. Why do JWs think that is how their shunned kids will feel. Rather, it is an overwhelming sadness but also with an understatement of why this is happening, something that many don't understand.

It is the Watchtower along with the Governing Body that is responsible for this. Any outrage is directed towards them. It is those men that demand exclusive devotion to them over the natural affection that JWs have for their own families. They break up families.

I am sorry this has happened to you. I am also sorry this has happened to your parents. It will be just as hard for them (and in some cases, maybe more because it's not natural). There will be lots of tears.

It saddens me to see that they couldn't even sign the letter with 'love'. It's a twisted, evil organization.

41

147th Gilead prt. 3 - this could stumble people

by neat blue dog in

during gerrit loesch's talk just released, he goes on a long list of the false end times predictions throughout the millennia.

i didn't expect it, but then he goes into the precursors to the bible students who, when their dates failed, changed christ's presence to have happened 'invisibly'.

then it goes right into the jws, and he reads the quote from millions now living will never die about how we can 'confidently expect' the resurrection in 1925, and then the life everlasting book that predicted 1975. of course, he doesn't say how it's still going on, namely with the overlapping generation and its' accompanying convoluted chart, but still, this is more than they've ever said on the subject, especially recently.. it almost sounds like a forced statement, to address any backlash from people reading 'apostate lies' online, because he also says how the gb 'humbly' admitted mistakes, referencing the non-apology after 1975 that disturbed raymond franz.

Listener

Winston from the Youtube Channel Watchtower Examination is doing some reviews on it. There's so much nonsense and issues in his presentation.

Loesch is reading a script and it's still hard to make any sense of it in places. He can't even read his script properly.

7

Australian Royal Commission into Child Abuse Annual Reporting

by Listener in

jw leaks (steven unthank) has listed on his website two annual reports that the austrailan bethel were required to lodge.

interestingly, they were one of only 11 organizations required to do so.there are a few interesting claims that the watchtower makes, this is from the 2019 report that they wrote -.

5. when elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of jehovah’s witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws.

Listener

How is a female JW supposed to write the report when they don't even know what is written in the Shepherding book? They really don't care.

31

Don Adams has passed away

by RubaDub in

jw
friends

i received a call from a friend in new york city that don adams passed away late last evening (30 dec 2019).

many of you bethelites know him and he was the president of the society for a number of years after the gb got out of the corporate structure business.

from what i understand, he was generally liked by many there.. some in my family knew him.

Listener

He went to work at Bethel in 1943 according to a 2010 Watchtower. If he died at 94 or 95 years old that would have made him 18 or 19 when he arrived at Bethel. His whole life, not knowing anything different.

7

Australian Royal Commission into Child Abuse Annual Reporting

by Listener in

jw leaks (steven unthank) has listed on his website two annual reports that the austrailan bethel were required to lodge.

interestingly, they were one of only 11 organizations required to do so.there are a few interesting claims that the watchtower makes, this is from the 2019 report that they wrote -.

5. when elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of jehovah’s witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws.

Listener

JW Leaks (Steven Unthank) has listed on his website two annual reports that the Austrailan Bethel were required to lodge. Interestingly, they were one of only 11 organizations required to do so.

There are a few interesting claims that the Watchtower makes, this is from the 2019 report that they wrote -

5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1) Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or there is some other valid reason

Here the Watchtower state that they may report the crime to authorities even though there is no legal requirement to do so. It is the Branch that decides whether this should be done or not.

What is a valid reason to report to authorities? Well they say that they get to decide that but in reality, there is a valid reason to report every alleged case of child abuse. It could be argued that they have just made themselves liable beyond doubt when they choose not to report because they have said in this report that they will inform authorities when there is a valid reason.

7. Congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses do not separate children from their parents for the purpose of instruction or other activities. (Ephesians 6:4) For example, our congregations do not provide or sponsor orphanages, Sunday schools, sports clubs, day-care centers, youth groups, or other activities that separate children from their parents.

They are happy to straight out lie. Non related JWs give bible studies to minors. Non related JWs also take minors witnessing without their parents being in full supervision.

10. Child abuse is a serious sin. If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter.—Romans 13:1-4.

Here's another admission which is astounding. They claim that the JC is LIMITED to the issue of membership as a JW. Their publications state otherwise. This is in the Watchtower 92 7/1

"If a sin (or sins) has been committed, the purpose of the righteous judges will be to help the sinner to readjust, to understand the error of his way, to repent, and thus to be snatched from “the snare of the Devil.” It will require “art of teaching,” “instructing with mildness.” (2 Timothy 2:24-26; 4:2) What if the sinner then recognizes that he has sinned, is truly stabbed to the heart, and asks Jehovah for forgiveness? (Compare Acts 2:37.) If the committee is convinced that he sincerely wants help, generally there would be no need to disfellowship him.—See The Watchtower, January 1, 1983, page 31, paragraph 1."

13. This document is available upon request to members of the congregation. It is reviewed at least once every three years.

I wonder how many JWs even know that the document even exists.

2019 report

https://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/jehovahs-witnesses-child-abuse-royal-commission-annual-progress-report-2019.pdf