Posts by Listener

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

Listener

The daily text they will read on December 7, 2024 currently states

He had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.—Rev. 14:6.
The “good news of the Kingdom” is not the only message that God’s people are to declare. (Matt. 24:14) They also need to support the work of the angels who are described in Revelation chapters 8 through 10. These angels announce a series of woes for those who reject God’s Kingdom. Thus, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been declaring a judgment message, likened to “hail and fire,” revealing God’s judgments on the various elements of Satan’s wicked world. (Rev. 8:7, 13) People need to know that the end is near so that they can make drastic changes in their lives and survive Jehovah’s day of anger. (Zeph. 2:2, 3) But this message is not popular. Declaring it calls for courage on our part. During the great tribulation, the final judgment message will become more hard-hitting.—Rev. 16:21. w22.05 7 ¶18-19

They talk about a different message, not the 'good news', that message being woes announced by angels.

It quotes W 22.05

The good news of the Kingdom is not the only message that God’s people are to declare. They also need to support the work of the angels who are described in Revelation chapters 8 through 10. These angels announce a series of woes for those who reject God’s Kingdom. Thus, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been declaring a judgment message, likened to “hail and fire,” revealing God’s judgments on the various elements of Satan’s wicked world. (Rev. 8:7, 13) People need to know that the end is near so that they can make drastic changes in their lives and survive Jehovah’s day of anger. (Zeph. 2:2, 3) But this message is not popular. Declaring it calls for courage on our part. During the great tribulation, the final judgment message will become more hard-hitting.—Rev. 16:21.

But they say that JWs have already been declaring this judgment message, it's just that during the GT it becomes more 'hard hitting'.

5

Nicolas King starting to be removed from website

by neat blue dog in

it took them much longer than expected, but all the wt chorus videos in which he was a member have been removed from the music videos section.

interestingly the audio version of song 141 in which he sings, as well as even his solos like song number 127 all remain, but as we know appearance is all that matters.

also of course his role in the drama "these words must be on your heart" can't be easily fixed but that's less of a problem as he was playing a 'bad guy' to begin with..

Listener

Careful - here's a link with a little more information. You can also google to see how well known he is

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6558031509192704/official-jw-celeb-nicolas-king-publicly-out

Neat Blue Dog, you reported about it 8 months ago. Watchtower is very slow to react. No doubt they are unable to accept any news reports as a witness and had to rely on their professional snooping detectives.

24

What have I been doing for the last few years?

by Lee Marsh in

jw
friends

i used to be here a lot.

every single day almost.

and then i wasn't.. well let's start with a before.

Listener

Nice to hear from you Lady Lee. I think you were a moderator here at one time, or maybe I have it wrong.

It sounds like you've been through a tough challenge with your Cancer and have had to make some big decisions that have worked out well for you.

28

A special video has been released to assist people who have experienced child sexual abuse within the Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia

by jwleaks in

jw
friends

article.

https://saysorry.org/2024/02/19/jehovahs-witnesses-and-the-australian-national-redress-scheme/.

video.

Listener

JW Leaks I understood it was in regards to child sexual abuse but I didn't expect the line to be drawn for victims 17 and under, I thought it would have been younger than that, under 16 years of age to coincide with the age of consent. But it appears that the age is different when it comes to criminal activity.

12

Watchtower May 2024 Who is being referred to as 'we'?

by Listener in

this is the magazine that presents some of the 'new light' from the oct. 2023 annual meeting.

it discusses some of the things they have now decided they don't know and revised some of the things they do know, or think they know.

when they start discussing some of the things they do know, most of them are still guesses and they use qualifiers.

Listener

This is the magazine that presents some of the 'new light' from the Oct. 2023 Annual Meeting. It discusses some of the things they have now decided they don't know and revised some of the things they do know, or think they know.

When they start discussing some of the things they do know, most of them are still guesses and they use qualifiers. So it often boils down to the fact that they do know something that may be a possibility.

For instance, here are some comments found under the title 'What we do know'

Rather, it seems that Jesus meant what he said...
So it seems that there may be ...
he suggested that there was hope for at least some of them. It seems that ...
it is possible that ..
it is possible...
If a similar development should occur...
It is also reasonable to conclude...
Perhaps some of these ...

As a general comment regarding a bible verse they write

But Jesus’ comment about the people of Sodom and Gomorrah could well be literal, so it is not hyperbole

They are all over the place in what they write.

It is no wonder they are getting more confusing when they write a paragraph like this

2. Jehovah continues to help us to have a clearer understanding of the major events that lie just ahead. (Prov. 4:18; Dan. 2:28) We can be certain that by the time the great tribulation starts, we will know all we need to know in order to endure faithfully and even prosper during that challenging period. However, we must recognize that there are some things that we just do not know about the near future. In this article, we will first discuss why we have reconsidered what we have said about some of those events. Then we will review some of the things that we do know about the future and the way that our heavenly Father will act.

They have used the word 'we' a total of ten times in this paragraph. Sometimes the 'we' refers to the Governing Body/FDS and other times it refers to all JWs. However, they don't even attempt to clarify who they are referring to in each instance. In fact, they do the same thing throughout the whole of the Watchtower.

28

A special video has been released to assist people who have experienced child sexual abuse within the Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia

by jwleaks in

jw
friends

article.

https://saysorry.org/2024/02/19/jehovahs-witnesses-and-the-australian-national-redress-scheme/.

video.

Listener

I never realised that the Redress Scheme applied to abuse victims who were under 18 years of age.

However, it only applies to victims who were under JW institutional care, custody, supervision, control or authority. Examples given are Kingdom Halls- cleaning, meetings, hall maintenance. At a formal congregation bookstudy meeting held in a private home, receiving assistance under the child witnesses mentoring programs for fatherless boys or spiritual orphans, building construction activities, child minding services, volunteering at conventions, as a student enrolled in the theocratic ministry school, field service whilst in the care of another congregant and a few others.

This is going to limit the amount of claims drastically if most of the abuse has been by other JWs, including Elders/MS's who committed the abuse outside JW settings (such as in private homes, cars, parks etc.)

62

The Vaccine mandate has been lifted, with no explanation or apologies

by redsetter2 in

.

Listener

Redsetter, I am not saying it doesn't sound like a Watchtower document, I just find it interesting how the attribute the decision making.

43

How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

by Vanderhoven7 in

according to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.

the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?

.

Listener

They only presume to know because they assume that the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is both a literal number and is the amount of anointed since 33CE.

The other problem is that they got rid of their teaching that there was a second class of Christians bound for heaven and this class was only identified around 1935 as staying on earth and use the feelings of some JWs who at the time, felt they had an earthly hope.

Revelation it's grand climax Chapter 20 states

Worldly commentators have interpreted this great crowd to be fleshly non-Jews converted to Christianity or to be heaven-bound Christian martyrs. Even the Bible Students in the past regarded them as a secondary heavenly class, as noted in 1886 in Volume I of Studies in the Scriptures, The Divine Plan of the Ages: “They lose the prize of the throne and the divine nature, but will finally reach birth as spirit beings of an order lower than the divine nature. Though these are truly consecrated, they are overcome by the worldly spirit to such an extent that they fail to render their lives in sacrifice.” And as late as 1930, the thought was expressed in Light, Book One: “Those who make up this great crowd fail to respond to the invitation to become the zealous witnesses for the Lord.” They were described as a self-righteous group that had a knowledge of the truth but did little about preaching it. They were to get to heaven as a secondary class that would not share in reigning with Christ.

Prior to the mid 1930s, from what I can gather, their teaching had been that their were two classes of Christians going to heaven. One being the 144,000 who qualified by their preaching work and a lower, second class. The rest of mankind were going to be resurrected to earth.

By ridding themselves of this second, Christian, heavenly class meant that all Christians prior to 1935 were going to heaven.

Wiki gives a bit of information as to some of the older teachings. I've tried to extract the relevant information from the article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses

1877 Book published in which Russell's concept of "restitution" — that all humankind since Adam would be resurrected to the earth and given the opportunity for eternal perfect human life.
Russell advertised for 1,000 preachers in 1881,[44] and encouraged all who were members of "the body of Christ" to go forth as "colporteurs" or evangelizers and preach to their neighbors in order to gather the remainder of the "little flock" of saints before they were called to heaven.
By 1904, Russell's doctrinal development was almost complete. His sixth and final part of "Studies in the Scriptures", The New Creation, established that Revelation 7 spoke of two heavenly classes of Christians — 144,000 who would serve as a royal priesthood with Christ and a Great Company who would be brought to perfection on a lesser plane, similar to that of angels, serving the 144,000.[
The earthly part of God's kingdom would be administered from Jerusalem in a re-established nation of Israel and under the control of the resurrected ancient Jewish prophets. All of mankind would over time be resurrected to earth in reverse order of death, Adam and Eve being the last, ..
n 1928 Russell's teaching that the natural Jews would be restored to Palestine and hold a prominent place in the earthly part of God's kingdom was dropped..
In 1935 a new interpretation of the "great company" of Revelation 7 placed them on earth as survivors of Armageddon rather than in heaven[156] and from that point converts to the movement were generally identified as those who, if worthy, would qualify for life on a paradise earth.

5

More worship of men and framing as means of conveying pedagogy

by mortimer in

in the latest study article 51: enjoy a hope without disappointment, we're treated with a paragraph describing the previous president of the watchtower, frederick franz, as an example of a 'brother' who cherishes the hope of his heavenly appointment.

we are further treated with a picture of this man meant certainly to evoke a sense of reverence for him (and by extension the organizations' leadership).

the watchtower is very purposeful in how it frames any point it makes in its published work.

Listener

Anointed Christians cherish that hope. One of them, Brother Frederick Franz, said from his heart: “Our hope is a sure thing, and it will be fulfilled fully to every last one of the 144,000 members of the little flock to a degree beyond what we have even imagined.” After serving God faithfully for decades, in 1991 Brother Franz affirmed: “[We] have not lost our sense of value of that hope. . . . We are appreciating it all the more the longer we have to wait for it. It is something worth waiting for, even if it required a million years. I evaluate our hope more highly than ever before.”

He was 98 at the time he spoke those words. He believed he was going to heaven in a very, very short time. It's no wonder he was excited and his expectations were even greater than before. As for most other JWs, their expectations of living through to a paradise earth were slowly disintegrating or being revised.

62

The Vaccine mandate has been lifted, with no explanation or apologies

by redsetter2 in

.

Listener

The wording of the persons that are responsible for the change is very long winded, if not confusing.

What they are saying is that one Committee, headed by some of the Governing Body members has approved the request made by another Committee headed by some members of the Governing Body.

This means that neither their FDS or Governing Body, as a whole, made this decision.