Can we do a JW on this and take a guess?
Listener
JoinedPosts by Listener
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5
Random question I doubt anyone on here will know the answer to, or...
by feenx incare to answer.. but, what the hell right?.
does anyone know if tom pulsipher is still alive?
if not, does anyone know when he died?.
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Is the WTBTS having cash flow problems?
by JW GoneBad ini was at a 2 day circuit assembly this weekend and i was surprised at how many times mention was made directly or indirectly reminding those in attendance (1,600) of the need to give $$$.
even in the soliloquies or skits they seemed to work in the need to give $$$.. it made me wonder if the society is having 'cash flow' problems and hence is desparate for cash.
over the years that i've attended conventions and assemblies the need to give $$$ has been subtle (imo), til now.
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Listener
The measure of their greed is what the money is used for and ours as witnesses are plowed
right back into the organisation not some fat cat leaders bejewelled hands......debator/Reniaa
To pay for food, clothes and medical care for 100's of JWs and not a cent for widows and orphans, let alone disaster victims and other needy people. -
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I'm starting to develop a real hatred toward this religion
by man in black inthis past week i flew out of town to attend a seminar for work, then afterwards i drove 150 miles extra to go and visit my dad.. two years ago my mom died, and the lack of concern/caring from the so-called "friends" from two different states was a major reason why i walked away from the jw religion.. anyway, my dad is depressed and his local hall has him doing more fs, and attending the meetings,,, ok so that could be a good thing for him.. but i noticed that service and meeting attendance is the only thing that they are pushing on him.
nobody seems to check up on him, he just jumped at the chance to go out to eat with me.
and the negativity !!!
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Listener
You sound like a very caring person but frustrated and annoyed. You don't say why your dad is selling everything off. You appreciate that your dad is grieving. It is very difficult for him and it takes a while for him to come to terms with his new life.
The important thing is that you are there for him, don't worry about what anyone else is doing. It will dawn on him like a bright light one day that he can rely on you and you are there to offer the support he needs so keep it up.
I agree that the JWs don't do what is really the most important things, they aren't really taught to see them as a priority. I'm pretty sure that the men see their duties elsewhere and they take up much of their time. It's not in their hearts or their minds.
You're dad is elderly so it makes it easier just to accept the way it is, if he was 30 years younger it would be more tempting to argue with him (and possibly justified) just let him go on in his ways and try to give him good advice in a gentle way when he needs it.
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Birthdays not mentioned in the new elder's handbook
by Robert7 ini just noticed this today when i was replying to another thread.
the new elders handbook doesn't even mention the word birthday, even though there's a big detailed chapter on offences requiring a judicial committee.. is it possible that celebrating birthdays is officially, according to the 'law', allowed?
i can see this being the case, where technically you're allowed to, but you would just get judged like crazy..
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Listener
W68 2/15
True Christians do not need “Mother’s Day,” “Father’s Day,” “Christmas Day,” “Easter Day” or other holidays that are outlined by the world because, while it is true that some persons might in all sincerity give on these occasions out of love, when they become Christians they refrain from having their giving marred by association with any holidays of pagan origin.
Although not such a big deal, but Mother's and Father's Day are not allowed either. Like bierthdays, it really takes a lot of joy away from the children. Many schools have little projects where they get the kids to make things for their parents to give to them on these days, imagine the disappointment of the kids when they learn that they shouldn't be doing this.
They have to be different and they have to learn to defend their religion. According to the org if they learn to defend their faith in these matters then they will have more chance of standing up for it on bigger things.
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book study
by ssn587 indoes anyone know what book will be used for the next book study after this book?.
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Listener
Do both these meetings (the one on Sunday and the other during a weekday evening) go for 2 hours? If they are shorter what was their reasoning?
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61
The New Covenant Discussion
by Listener ini left the org many years ago as a teenager.
i started looking more closely at their doctrines a few months ago to work out if they really have the truth.
when i cam across the notion that jesus is not mediator for everyone i was startled and have been looking at the issue a lot more closely.
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Listener
The quote from insight vol 2 pg 1125 didn't copy correctly in my post above, it is -
Tribes
“JudgingtheTwelveTribesofIsrael.” Jesus told the apostles that in “the re-creation” they would “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28; see CREATION [Re-Creation].) And he expressed a similar thought when he made a covenant with his faithful apostles for a Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21) Those “called to be holy ones” are said to judge, not themselves, but “the world.” (1Co 1:1, 2; 6:2) Those reigning with Christ form a kingdom of priests. (1Pe 2:9; Re 5:10) Consequently, “the twelve tribes of Israel” mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent “the world” of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge.—Re 20:4.
They have said 'it is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel'. Those that Jesus was talking to knew what he meant. They knew he wasn't talking about the earthly men of Israel therefore he must have been talking about the spiritual kingdom of Israel. But because the symbolic book of Revelation uses the word spiritual they conclude that it is a different Israel that he is talking about. On this basis then everything in Revelation does not relate to anything in the other scriptures and can be made to fit any definition they want.
A good point has been raised to ask a Jew to defind their understanding of 'new covenant' and I am really curious to know how a JW would define it. As previously mentioned I don't think the literature actually spells it out clearly enough and I think there would be many and varied answers. Just to confuse them more the org mentions the new covenant and an additional covenant (which becomes very conveniant for them when you think you are discussing one thing with them and they are actually discussing something else).
Question: "What is the New Covenant?"
Answer: The new covenant is spoken about first in the book of Jeremiah. The old covenant that God had established with His people required obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the law required that people perform rituals and sacrifices in order to please God and remain in His grace. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.
"'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people'" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"
Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not under the penalty of the law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9-11), we can now share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God. Hebrews 9:15 declares, “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
Question: "What is the New Covenant?"
Answer: The new covenant is spoken about first in the book of Jeremiah. The old covenant that God had established with His people required obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the law required that people perform rituals and sacrifices in order to please God and remain in His grace. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.
"'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people'" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"
Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not under the penalty of the law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9-11), we can now share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God. Hebrews 9:15 declares, “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
This is a definition on the New Covenant that I found that makes it plain and clear
Question: "What is the New Covenant?"
Answer: The new covenant is spoken about first in the book of Jeremiah. The old covenant that God had established with His people required obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the law required that people perform rituals and sacrifices in order to please God and remain in His grace. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.
"'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people'" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"
Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not under the penalty of the law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9-11), we can now share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God. Hebrews 9:15 declares, “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
Recommended Resource: The Moody Handbook of Theology by Paul Enns. -
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The New Covenant Discussion
by Listener ini left the org many years ago as a teenager.
i started looking more closely at their doctrines a few months ago to work out if they really have the truth.
when i cam across the notion that jesus is not mediator for everyone i was startled and have been looking at the issue a lot more closely.
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Listener
The org believes that the great crowd are not part of God's Kingdom but are only observers, being interested in the Kingdom, there only to assist in a time of need. By their own words the great crowd are not recieving forgiveness of sins through Christ's blood, not sanctified, not Jesus' spiritual brothers of Christ (but somehow the FDS acknowledge them as brothers but that would just be earthly brothers in a spiritual sense, not literal) or God's children. Oh how the Kingdom of God has been shut off to them.
SD-7 said -The irony is that they recently said in a study article that the great crowd symbolically represents the twelve tribes of Israel. Yet, spiritual Israel is made up of people from all nations. Both groups, by the Watchtower's own admission, are symbolically Israelites
They have also said that the 144,000 make up the 12 tribes of Israel, there is this from Insight Vol 1 pg 1125
Tribes
So on the one hand they say 12 Tribes of Spiritual Israel is made up of the 144,000 but the 12 tribes of Israel is all mankind. SD-7 (or anyone) are you saying that this contradiction is excused away by saying one is symbolic and although the other is symbolic it is literal at the same time?
No wonder they belittle people by saying they are spiritually weak (and don't have it in their hearts) when they can't comprehend their deep meaning of truths, they just embarass people into accepting what they say.
It is interesting the Ed Dunlap had a serious problem with this, did Ray Franz also have a problem with this too? Looking into this has helped me to see how it is at the root of the control the FDS has been able to have over it's followers and why they have no choice but to declare themselves as the only true religion and the only way in which the great crowd can gain salvation. They are certainly unique in that they have intricately devised this great crowd which is not part of God's Kingdom but can gain benefit from it if they follow them.
The great crowd can show their dedication to God (and the FDS) by being baptized and the org says this is how they 'wash their robes in the blood of the lamb of God' and as SD-7 pointed out you can't do this merely by being an observer of his covenant/kingdom arrangement. Surely one has to come into the covenant arrangement and be part of it for their 'robes to be washed' and made pure and white. It is not because of our own dedication alone that has made it possible but because Jesus has provided us with the means for us to be able to be cleansed. Or in other words, we can wash our outer garmet (by walking in the footsteps of God in our dedication to him) but it is only through the covenant arrangement (the blood of Christ) that they are made white, if we are not part of it then that cannot happen, but the org says it can because the great crowd are beneficiaries. As clear as mud.
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The New Covenant Discussion
by Listener ini left the org many years ago as a teenager.
i started looking more closely at their doctrines a few months ago to work out if they really have the truth.
when i cam across the notion that jesus is not mediator for everyone i was startled and have been looking at the issue a lot more closely.
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Listener
Thanks for your bible quotes Ding.
The quote from Ephesians is great and I've heard of the great crowd being compared to the Gentiles but if I am reading a 2002 Watchtower article correctly then they don't think they are Gentiles any longer.
W 2002 5/1
In times past, it has been said that the great crowd is in a spiritual equivalent, or an antitype, of the Court of the Gentiles that existed in Jesus’ day. However, further research has revealed at least five reasons why that is not so. First, not all features of Herod’s temple have an antitype in Jehovah’s great spiritual temple. For example, Herod’s temple had a Court of the Women and a Court of Israel. Both men and women could enter the Court of the Women, but only men were allowed into the Court of Israel. In the earthly courtyards of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, men and women are not separated in their worship. (Galatians 3:28, 29) Hence, there is no equivalent of the Court of the Women and the Court of Israel in the spiritual temple.........
Members of the great crowd exercise faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. They are spiritually clean, having “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, they are like proselytes in Israel who submitted to the Law covenant and worshiped along with the Israelites.
Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for each one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times!
So the great crowd are no longer Gentiles but are now proselytes. At least they are now serving inside the temple rather than outside it.
How much more confusing can it get?
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The New Covenant Discussion
by Listener ini left the org many years ago as a teenager.
i started looking more closely at their doctrines a few months ago to work out if they really have the truth.
when i cam across the notion that jesus is not mediator for everyone i was startled and have been looking at the issue a lot more closely.
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Listener
That explains why they don't want Jesus to be the mediator of the great crowd, that way can replace themselves as the middleman and boldly say that unless you are a JW in their one and only true religion, you will be destoyed.
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Latest Special Talk in Australia
by jwfacts inno, i don't mean the visit by oprah.. there was a special talk on sunday relayed to all the aussie congs from sydney.
apparently the speaker had an american accent, but was stationed in a latin american country.
he was really pushing field service and pulled out the old one that: if you do not witness you are not one of jehovah's witnesses.
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Listener
Does that mean that it calculates out as follows -
Standard work week = 38 hours x 48 weeks a year - 11 public holidays (83.5 hours) - 10 compassionate days (38 hours) =
1702.5 hours a year x 10% -= 170.25 (3.27 hours a week)